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Madison bans discrimination against atheists
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 14:05:20
Yeah, but, no. Not what I mean. Why do they want to get away with it? Why doesn't thinking about comitting the act repulse and disgust them?
Not surprising if you look at the progress of people. Society is moving more and more away from doing what is right toward doing whatever satisfies your selfish desires.
Yet every report available says crime as a whole is and has been trending downward for a long time.
And no, I don't think that's it either, because rape and sex as a spoil of war has been a concept for a very long time. Practically since society became a thing amongst humans. Hell, the Bible lays down guidelines for it. And, sadly enough, those guidelines are not "don't do it".
Just because something isn't a crime, doesn't mean it is right to do.
As for the Bible, it condemns having sex with someone that is not your spouse.
So, for those religious scholars:
How many times is sex (between humans) referenced in the bible (one number for direct, another number for implied)?
What gender permutations and combinations exist?
What are the minimum and maximum number of simultaneous partners (and genders)?
What are the familial relations(if any) of partners?
What percentage of direct references are in wedlock? Out? Implied references?
Now that you have that...
If you randomly picked one of the people having sex in the bible, what is the most likely statistical configuration?
Would you be condemned?
Would be interesting to see.
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Leviathan.Protey
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-05-04 14:06:07
I'm specifically talking about things like rape, or forcing children into prostitution. You don't need to believe in god to know those are terrible things to do, and you shouldn't even be allowed to pretend you're a Christian if you do those things.
Definitely unChristianlike behavior. But everyone knows they are wrong regardless of one's religion.
Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:06:22
Ask a question and you answer something else. How is the pro-life "concept" of "life doesn't start at conception" not being forced on people who believe otherwise by the legality of abortion?
Because they're not being forced to have abortions?
You don't get the core concept, we all know this by now and there's not point in going at with you at length about this, again.
Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:09:00
I'm specifically talking about things like rape, or forcing children into prostitution. You don't need to believe in god to know those are terrible things to do, and you shouldn't even be allowed to pretend you're a Christian if you do those things.
Definitely unChristianlike behavior. But everyone knows they are wrong regardless of one's religion.
Oh, I agree completely. I'm just saying it's doubly insulting when people who do terrible things use their Christianity as some sort of justification for things or as a weapon against something they disagree with.
I don't *** know, I've lost myself now. Just tired of terrible people is all I'm saying. ^^;
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-04 14:09:12
but As for the Bible, it condemns having sex with someone that is not your spouse.
It also lays out guidelines for marrying someone if you impregnate them by raping them, or what to do if you get a slave pregnant.
"Oh, well in that case, they're just your spouse now. Problem solved!" Again, somebody brings up an example from Mosaic Law as a counter to something that has broader application. It's like you want to argue against Christians but really have beef with the Jews.
Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:10:33
but As for the Bible, it condemns having sex with someone that is not your spouse.
It also lays out guidelines for marrying someone if you impregnate them by raping them, or what to do if you get a slave pregnant.
"Oh, well in that case, they're just your spouse now. Problem solved!" Again, somebody brings up an example from Mosaic Law as a counter to something that has broader application. It's like you want to argue against Christians but really have beef with the Jews.
I have a beef with people using the Old Testament to justify anything. You know by now my beef is with religion and religious inconsistencies in general, not just any one religion.
I've said before, I'll say it again. I think Jesus had some spectacular ideas. I just wish more people who proclaim to be Christians actually believed them and didn't just want to be seen as part of the club.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-04 14:16:55
I just wish more people who proclaim to be Christians actually believed them and didn't just want to be seen as part of the club. Actually, because of being forced into Christianity for so long, I see the current members as keeping with tradition more than being part of the club.
Nearly all members during the Middle Ages were forced into it by monarch rule, so it's not like you have a choice. Like how nearly all members of the Islamic faith in certain areas of the world is forced into it by government law. Granted, those who are not forced into Islam is doing it to be part of the club....
Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:17:20
but really have beef with the Jews.
Also, of course I have beef with the Jews. It's that or chicken because they're just too damn good for the tasty pork chops I made last time. ._.;
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-05-04 14:19:16
Also, people that consider themselves to be pro-life and still allow for exceptions for cases of abortion or support the death penalty is just ludicrous...
You really don't understand the unborn are innocent victims of abortion and those put to death are guilty of heinous crimes via due process?
Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:19:52
Actually, because of being forced into Christianity for so long, I see the current members as keeping with tradition more than being part of the club.
I see where you're going with this, but knowing many Christians who actually do their best to live in a way Jesus would approve of, I'm going to stick with my terminology's implications.
You need look no further to prove America is still overwhelmingly bias for Christians than by seeing that everyone wants to be seen as Christian if they're in the public eye, lest they be made a spectacle, if not outright rejected. Even atheists. Look at the polls regarding the way Americans view atheists. Even atheists are unlikely to trust other atheists as much as Christians.
It's the way we've been raised. It's indoctrinated from the time we can barely process information.
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Leviathan.Protey
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By Leviathan.Protey 2015-05-04 14:20:34
I've said before, I'll say it again. I think Jesus had some spectacular ideas. I just wish more people who proclaim to be Christians actually believed them and didn't just want to be seen as part of the club.
agreed. It saddens me to see people that proclaim to be Christians but do not act accordingly. If people did when he was asked what the greatest commandment: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'." then things would be much better.
If you love your neighbor as you do yourself you would not do terrible things to them. Rather people would care and look out for each other. I see so many people around me not give a rats *** about others and I wonder about the future of the world.
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Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:23:06
Also, people that consider themselves to be pro-life and still allow for exceptions for cases of abortion or support the death penalty is just ludicrous...
You really don't understand the unborn are innocent victims of abortion and those put to death are guilty of heinous crimes via due process?
Not baptized yet, still guilty with original sin. No harm, no foul.
I think your belief of the unborn's status as their own being before they're viable is incorrect, which is why these are beliefs and you can't force them on others.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-05-04 14:35:09
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Ragnarok.Jiing
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By Ragnarok.Jiing 2015-05-04 14:35:40
So basically people just need to shut up? I can't say I disagree with that. If only banning discrimination on a social issue would do just that. All it ever does is make the voices louder and more obnoxious. In theory, it could work. However, after being in the trenches for so long (18 years), I've realized that "spreading the message of god" is essentially indoctrination, which causes people to seem obnoxious about their views. In reality, many of them are doing exactly as they're told. The problem lies with misinterpretation, I fear. The bible mentions homosexuality like twice, and both times it's more frowned upon than a full-blown sin. Yet there's so much in there about stoning women who don't obey their men and apparently eating shrimp in some context is some sort of sin as well. Yet I don't see stones being thrown every time someone has a cocktail. So why all the hullaballoo over homosexuality? Some people find it icky and don't want to think about it. Others... repression is the word that comes to mind. These views are then absorbed into a specific society that one identifies with and blammo! It becomes a full-on sin. I'm using homosexuality as an example, of course.
Meanwhile, we have people who are adamantly being forced to hear their beliefs through their loud opinions, so only naturally does the other side come up with a few crazies of their own to combat this. I'm not saying that religious zealots begat atheist extremists, but it didn't exactly help. Anger only gives birth to more anger. Does anyone really think that someone's mind can be changed because they get yelled at more?
"What you're doing is a sin."
"Pssssh. Yeah right."
"WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS A SIN!!!"
"Well, when you put it that way, I do believe you're right!"
Then again, there's a part of mankind where some people like to go against the grain. For funzies. Take Friedrich Nietzsche, for example. The man wrote "God is Dead" just to see what kind of reaction he could get out of people. In the news earlier today, we had three people shot because a bunch of bold idiots decided to hold a Prophet Muhammed drawing contest knowing full well it would incur the wrath of Muslim terrorists. Why? Because they like to stir the pot. We got those people in the Atheist clan; people whose sole plan in life is to make the religious (Christians especially) get their panties in a bunch. And boy golly, does it work!
Can we silence those extremists on either side? Probably never. Do they make the rest of us look bad? You betcher *** it does. Case in point, the rancor from some of you aimed at the "liberal douchebags" who don't believe in an omnipotent being in this very thread. Not all Christians hate Atheists. Not all Atheists like to make a mockery out of those who believe in a god. Yet, the loudspoken will always paint us out to be worse than we are, and the division continues. The more we fight back, the more we fan the flames.
/clap
Bravo,i could'nt have said it better myself.
I am athiest myself,and i have always done my best to understand and respect others beliefs.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-04 14:44:09
Also, people that consider themselves to be pro-life and still allow for exceptions for cases of abortion or support the death penalty is just ludicrous...
You really don't understand the unborn are innocent victims of abortion and those put to death are guilty of heinous crimes via due process? What I don't understand is how someone who considers themselves "pro-life" can take the stance that all life is sacred and the unborn are innoncent victims unless their mother was raped or there was some form of incest. Those babies are tainted by the actions of their parents and can be put down.
no more or less guilty than others that spend life in prison and hey some of them are actually innocent too. That is besides the point though. Call yourself what you actually are which is anti-abortion with certain exceptions. Pro-life tends to bring a long with it this innate respect for life and the idea that we shouldn't take it.
I'm pro-life! Unless I think you deserve to die!
VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 14:46:22
Also, people that consider themselves to be pro-life and still allow for exceptions for cases of abortion or support the death penalty is just ludicrous...
You really don't understand the unborn are innocent victims of abortion and those put to death are guilty of heinous crimes via due process?
Does that apply to the dozens proven innocent after they were put to death due to soft or even plain untrue police work and a judicial system that failed in order to not look soft on crime?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-04 14:47:58
Also, people that consider themselves to be pro-life and still allow for exceptions for cases of abortion or support the death penalty is just ludicrous...
You really don't understand the unborn are innocent victims of abortion and those put to death are guilty of heinous crimes via due process? What I don't understand is how someone who considers themselves "pro-life" can take the stance that all life is sacred and the unborn are innoncent victims unless their mother was raped or there was some form of incest. Those babies are tainted by the actions of their parents and can be put down.
no more or less guilty than others that spend life in prison and hey some of them are actually innocent too. That is besides the point though. Call yourself what you actually are which is anti-abortion with certain exceptions. Pro-life tends to bring a long with it this innate respect for life and the idea that we shouldn't take it.
I'm pro-life! Unless I think you deserve to die! So, are you saying that all abortions should be abolished, including those from rape/incest and those that could be a danger to the mother and child?
Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:49:13
I'm pro-life! Unless I think you deserve to die!
"Or unless your parent/parents can't afford to feed you. Then they had better not come crying to me for help!"
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Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 14:50:18
So, are you saying that all abortions should be abolished, including those from rape/incest and those that could be a danger to the mother and child?
Regardless of his personal beliefs, I think he's saying that if you're against abortions based on the "sanctity of life/life personhood at conception" in some cases, you need to be against them in all cases. Otherwise your argument falls apart.
In "defense" of Nausi, I think he's against abortion in all cases, for better or worse, isn't he?
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-05-04 14:54:52
You really don't understand the unborn are innocent victims of abortion and those put to death are guilty of heinous crimes via due process?
Pro-life tends to bring a long with it this innate respect for life and the idea that we shouldn't take it.
Are you intentionally sticking your head in the sand or can you really not help it?
Round and round we go (again)
All this thread needed was a topic change to abortion.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-04 14:56:16
So, are you saying that all abortions should be abolished, including those from rape/incest and those that could be a danger to the mother and child?
Regardless of his personal beliefs, I think he's saying that if you're against abortions based on the "sanctity of life/life personhood at conception" in some cases, you need to be against them in all cases. Otherwise your argument falls apart.
In "defense" of Nausi, I think he's against abortion in all cases, for better or worse, isn't he? If he is going to extremes in his posts, then I will counter with the same extremes.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-05-04 14:57:59
Abortion!!!
AKA infant genocide.
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Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 15:01:23
I personally just love how obsessed a vocal minority of the Christian Right is with controlling women's genitourinary concerns.
A vocal minority who, despite their supposed dedication to working hard and being worthwhile contributors to society, have nothing else to do but stand around protesting doctors' offices.
Get jobs, you modern-day hippie causeheads!
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2015-05-04 15:03:51
Meanwhile, vocal Christians continue to endear themselves to everyone. I really wonder what personal experience you had that set you against the faith my friend.
I'm ready to be disappointed. When did I say I was against Christianity?
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-04 15:05:20
Are you intentionally sticking your head in the sand or can you really not help it? Am I the one that is preaching that life begins at conception and that babies are innocent lives and then telling people its ok to snuff out that innocent life in certain cases?
Pro - life has to do with all life Nausi not just unborn babies. I mean you can keep accusing me of sticking my head in the sand because you have nothing to actually say or whatnot but yeah...
Also, I have no idea what your personal stance is to tell you the truth. I can't say I really care either.
I used to think it was pretty funny when people would have pro-life posters up at a protest while chanting for the death of the doctors performing the abortions...
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-05-04 15:07:49
Don't think about it too hard.
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-04 15:09:24
My personal stance on abortion is one that allows for no exceptions as I've said numerous times before. Would I ever lobby for this to be whats accepted a practice for our nation? No. Would I live my own personal life in a way that would avoid ever having to be in the situation to make a choice like that? Yes. If it came down to having to make that choice I would always make the same one.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-05-04 15:11:27
So, are you saying that all abortions should be abolished, including those from rape/incest and those that could be a danger to the mother and child?
Regardless of his personal beliefs, I think he's saying that if you're against abortions based on the "sanctity of life/life personhood at conception" in some cases, you need to be against them in all cases. Otherwise your argument falls apart.
In "defense" of Nausi, I think he's against abortion in all cases, for better or worse, isn't he?
Eh, it's a complicated subject (despite Flavin being unable to understand the nuances), I think it happens and will always happen. There are a few cases where I think it's can be reasonably dubbed necessary. There is no doubt to me that it is human from the point of fertilization. The culture that so widely permits it and downright encourages it does a great disservice to humanity.
And I think we will be judged pretty harshly for it in whatever comes next. Every life snuffed out could potentially be the next Mozart or Einstein. Honestly a part of me feels lucky to know I am sexually insulated from it.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-05-04 15:14:04
Again, somebody brings up an example from Mosaic Law as a counter to something that has broader application. It's like you want to argue against Christians but really have beef with the Jews. I know many who believe that Jesus didn't replace the old laws and they follow both. There are verses that make it pretty easy to interpret that way too.
But that aside, there is plenty of crazy ***in the NT side.
VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 15:14:17
Every life snuffed out could potentially be the next Mozart or Einstein.
They could just as easily be the next Dahmer or Bundy or Osama. (statistically speaking, probably more likely)
Quote: Madison bans discrimination against atheists, non-religious
MADISON, Wis. — While conservatives in Indiana and Arkansas were explaining last month why their new religious objections laws weren't invitations to discriminate against gays, the leaders of Wisconsin's capital city were busy protecting the rights of another group: atheists.
In what is believed to be the first statute of its kind in the United States, Madison banned discrimination against the non-religious on April 1, giving them the same protections afforded to people based on their race, sexual orientation and religion, among other reasons.
It's hardly surprising that such a statute would originate in Madison, an island of liberalism in a conservative-leaning state and the home of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. But the ordinance's author, Anita Weier, said it didn't arise from an actual complaint about alleged discrimination based on a lack of religious faith.
"It just seems to me that religion has spread into government more than I feel comfortable with," said Weier, who left the council after the statute passed. "It just occurred to me that religion was protected, so non-religion should be, too."
She said it also had nothing to do with what was happening in Indiana and Arkansas, which rolled back their religious objections laws amid heavy criticism that they were meant to give legal cover to people who cite religious reasons for discriminating against gays.
Although there was no dissent when the City Council passed its new statute, some question the need to protect non-believers in liberal Madison from discrimination in the areas of housing, employment and services. Among them is Julaine Appling, the president of Wisconsin Family Action.
"I don't understand why they would add this to that litany of protections in Madison, of all places," she said. "I thought this was an April Fools' joke."
If any minority group deserves further protections in Madison, which embraces its unofficial motto of "77 square miles surrounded by reality," it's conservative groups like hers, said Appling. For example, she pointed to the City Council's attempts last year to create buffer zones to keep protesters away from abortion clinics, which the U.S. Supreme Court later deemed unconstitutional in a Massachusetts case.
Zach Brandon, president of the Madison Chamber of Commerce, said he hasn't heard city business owners express concern about the ordinance, but that's likely because it "doesn't really do anything."
Brandon said expanding the equal opportunities ordinance to include more protected categories could make it obsolete.
Atheists and other non-believers, though, say the statute marks an important step forward for those who aren't religious.
"I think Madison is way ahead of the curve," said Todd Stiefel, the president of Openly Secular, which helps non-religious people become open about their absence of faith.
Stiefel said people who tell their employers or family members that they are not religious face rejection and harassment. He said he's heard from atheists who were fired the day after sharing their non-religious views with their employers or disinherited by their parents after opening up about their lack of faith.
"It boils down to the misinformation and prejudice that gets passed down generation to generation. People have been raised being told that atheists are evil and they eat babies and they can't be trusted." Said Stiefel, adding that he thinks it will be quite a while before another city follows Madison's lead.
Patrick Elliott, a Freedom From Religion Foundation attorney, said the city that's also home to the University of Wisconsin has recently seen an increase in religiously-owned rental housing. While it had not yet created a conflict, the foundation wants to be sure there could be no discrimination, he said.
"Whether someone could have brought a case, we don't know," Elliott said. "It seemed that way, but we didn't have any precedent to support that."
Even though her ordinance passed without objection, Weier said her fellow council members seemed reluctant to embrace her idea or connect their name to it. She also said timing played a large role in her decision to propose the ordinance.
"If I'd been running again, I don't think I would have brought it forward," Weier said. "I think there's discrimination against atheists."
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