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Madison bans discrimination against atheists
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-04 16:55:00
You do realize that every single pregnancy damages and changes a woman's body for life? There are life long affects to giving birth that occur regardless of any additional complications one can also experience during pregnancy, labor, and after labor I assumed that that was fairly common knowledge. This just in, abortion changes a baby's body for life!
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2015-05-04 16:58:08
Define damaging. Because if you mean life-threatening, I doubt many people have a problem with abortions in that case. An unwanted pregnancy could be deleterious mentally, physically, and financially. It doesn't have to be life-threatening. The reality is that some people are not ready for the responsibility and having the kid won't magically change that. We've been over this in previous threads multiple times. It seems that only you and Pleebo still can't figure it out because you guys keep bringing up the same argument ad infinitum. That's because "it's complicated" or "nothing is black and white" is not an actual answer. Destruction of a fetus kills an innocent human (by pro-life "logic") no matter the circumstances surrounding conception. And if compassion for the mother is the appropriate response, then why can't that compassion be extended to various other circumstances where having a baby could be damaging?
Not having rape/incest exemptions is political suicide so it's convenient to fudge the logic. Because if you are going to say to kill the kid to save it from having birth defects or mental illnesses, then what's to say that an irresponsible parent(s) could be categorized as a birth defect (since the kid can't choose their parents) or mental illness (the parent(s) won't take care of them, which will lead to a lot of mental and social deficiencies).
How many abortions were done in cases of rape/incest vs. mental/physical disorders to the child vs. mother endangerment vs. parents not giving a damn? That's quite the slippery slope!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-04 17:00:08
So, Pleebo, are you ever going to answer the question, or are you just going to deflect the subject?
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By Asura.Ivlilla 2015-05-04 17:02:26
What's funny is there actually are strong arguments for why abortion should be illegal (except, in my opinion, in cases of rape, incest, gross deformity of the fetus, or danger to the health of the mother), it's just they're entirely based on logic and hurt people's feelings.
It doesn't really matter, anyway. In 50 years the Quiverfull movement and an increasingly large Muslim population will have enough clout to get it made illegal, although it would most likely take a constitutional amendment to do so, given that the nine wise souls in Washington are loathe to overturn set precedent.
It doesn't matter how "right" a "right" to abortion is, or how much you hate people forcing religious (or other) views on you. Democracy is mob rule and, as a rule, it seems the people who think abortion should be legal aren't having anywhere near as many kids as the people who think it should be illegal (fancy that), and children tend to have the same political ideology as their parents.
There's a whole slew of other things that could be brought up that are not at all related to religion, but they tend to cause severe hurt of the butt, as people are quite incapable of defending their beliefs (because beliefs are things you accept on faith, and questioning someone's deeply held beliefs or, worse yet, irrefutably demonstrating they are wrong, tends to such cognitive dissonance that further discussion is usually impossible).
My biggest problem with "the right"'s attempts to make abortion illegal, especially with no exceptions, is that they tend to care very much about fetuses before the mother gives birth, but it goes from being "fetus" to "baby", they seem to lose all interest.
Now is your chance to present some of those totally grounded in logic reasons that nobody else seems to have thought of yet.
Aside from the one mentioned above, that people who are in favor of abortion tend to not have as many children as people who are opposed to abortion, and that since children tend to 'inherit' the political beliefs of their parents, this means that over time the demographic slide towards the groups which think that abortion should be illegal becoming the majority means abortion will be made illegal?
Yeah, having religious nutjobs take over your country in 30 years doesn't really matter, since, hey, you'll be dead, *** all those kids who'll have to live in that society. I mean, that's what every generation has been doing the the ones that come after it, anyway, right?
Let's see.
Abortion being legal makes it significantly easier to have below replacement level birth rates. When you have below replacement level birth rates, the number of workers, and therefore taxpayers, declines. This means that businesses either need to offshore jobs, as there is a dearth of available workers, or need to import workers. Businesses being businesses, they will do things as cheaply as they possibly can, the law be damned. Importation of illegal immigrants, whose labor can be exploited for low wages for long and hard hours of dangerous work, means that the jobs in question, instead of having to pay more to make them competitive for the dwindling number of workers, are filled by people who will not be paying taxes (excepting possibly sales taxes, where such things exist), as, being undocumented, illegal workers, employees are not going to withhold earnings or report said employees to the government for tax purposes. This leads to a general devaluation of wages, loss of government income to support programs which allow for things like muh roads, the influx of workers, legal and illegal, who will take jobs for far less than native workers making it an employer's market, and the lowered income meaning that, since businesses will not reduce their prices, passing on savings to the consumer, but will merely pocket the money, that increasingly fewer and fewer people will be able to spend as much money as the businesses would like, total economic activity will decrease, and eventually the businesses will move elsewhere and the economy, and thus society, will collapse.
Shall I continue?
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-04 17:09:56
Define damaging. Because if you mean life-threatening, I doubt many people have a problem with abortions in that case. An unwanted pregnancy could be deleterious mentally, physically, and financially. It doesn't have to be life-threatening. The reality is that some people are not ready for the responsibility and having the kid won't magically change that.
Going to prison can be deleterious mentally, physically, and financially. Actions have consequences, it's nothing new. Should we remove all consequences from everything while we're at it?
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By volkom 2015-05-04 17:14:08
Should we remove all consequences from everything while we're at it?
do it
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 17:14:17
We've been over this in previous threads multiple times. It seems that only you and Pleebo still can't figure it out because you guys keep bringing up the same argument ad infinitum. That's because "it's complicated" or "nothing is black and white" is not an actual answer. Destruction of a fetus kills an innocent human (by pro-life "logic") no matter the circumstances surrounding conception. And if compassion for the mother is the appropriate response, then why can't that compassion be extended to various other circumstances where having a baby could be damaging? Not having rape/incest exemptions is political suicide so it's convenient to fudge the logic.
Define damaging. Because if you mean life-threatening, I doubt many people have a problem with abortions in that case. Why?
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-05-04 17:15:04
You do realize that every single pregnancy damages and changes a woman's body for life? There are life long affects to giving birth that occur regardless of any additional complications one can also experience during pregnancy, labor, and after labor I assumed that that was fairly common knowledge. This just in, abortion changes a baby's body for life!
Considering we are still discovering how far reaching those affects are on a woman I seriously doubt we are discussing the same things.
Brain changes, kegals for life, mineral defficiencies, joint issues, hormonal differences, etc. Besides the "common knowledge" your body will never look quite the same from relaxing of joints so that you get wider hips, stretch marks, less perky breasts from relaxin, etc, which do not necessarily occur for every woman.
This just in: anything a woman does or consumes during pregnancy changes a fetus for life. Would you like to start regulating how much sugar, protein, vitamins, water, cheese, fish, exercise, certain types of work, etc a woman can have and do during pregnancy? Stress levels release a hormone which alters the fetus brain chemistry.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 17:15:40
Define damaging. Because if you mean life-threatening, I doubt many people have a problem with abortions in that case. An unwanted pregnancy could be deleterious mentally, physically, and financially. It doesn't have to be life-threatening. The reality is that some people are not ready for the responsibility and having the kid won't magically change that.
Going to prison can be deleterious mentally, physically, and financially. Actions have consequences, it's nothing new. Should we remove all consequences from everything while we're at it? You seem to be operating under the concept that choosing to have an abortion (for whatever reason) is consequence free.
VIP
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 17:17:07
Aside from the one mentioned above, that people who are in favor of abortion tend to not have as many children as people who are opposed to abortion, and that since children tend to 'inherit' the political beliefs of their parents, this means that over time the demographic slide towards the groups which think that abortion should be illegal becoming the majority means abortion will be made illegal?
Actually, the current generation is far more left than their parents on average, at least on social issues. The idea that you get your political ideology from your parents is pretty outdated.
Quote: Yeah, having religious nutjobs take over your country in 30 years doesn't really matter, since, hey, you'll be dead, *** all those kids who'll have to live in that society. I mean, that's what every generation has been doing the the ones that come after it, anyway, right?
Religiosity is pretty low among millennials, consider the current surge in religious fervor a symptom of their waning influence in society in general.
Quote: Abortion being legal makes it significantly easier to have below replacement level birth rates. When you have below replacement level birth rates, the number of workers, and therefore taxpayers, declines. This means that businesses either need to offshore jobs, as there is a dearth of available workers, or need to import workers.
Jobs move offshore for financial reasons, our birthrate could drop a solid 10 points and we'd still have positive population growth. In fact, most of the decline in birth rate is among teens and single women 20-24. I don't see how that could be a bad thing.
Your doomsday economic predictions is nothing but a slippery slope fallacy based on an extreme overestimation of birth rate declines that are orders of magnitude more than we have. And, they don't constitute a legal obligation to outlaw abortion.
These aren't compelling logical arguments, they're just appeals to a different kind of emotion.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 17:20:48
How many abortions were done in cases of rape/incest vs. mental/physical disorders to the child vs. mother endangerment vs. parents not giving a damn? Why does this even matter?
If the numbers matter, then it is morality by the numbers, which is pretty much moral quicksand.
By fonewear 2015-05-04 17:35:06
The thing is this was a discussion about atheism and abortion is a byproduct of being an Atheist or so the P and R story was told...
Bismarck.Magnuss
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By Bismarck.Magnuss 2015-05-04 17:39:54
The thing is this was a discussion about atheism and abortion is a byproduct of being an Atheist or so the P and R story was told... Here at the Atheist factory, we use dead babies as fuel to turn good Christians into Atheist devilspawn.
By fonewear 2015-05-04 17:41:06
The thing is this was a discussion about atheism and abortion is a byproduct of being an Atheist or so the P and R story was told... Here at the Atheist factory, we use dead babies as fuel to turn good Christians into Atheist devilspawn.
I knew it the youtube video I just watched proved it !
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-04 17:52:40
You seem to be operating under the concept that choosing to have an abortion (for whatever reason) is consequence free.
Consequence free, consequence reducing, it's all just a matter of choosing which consequences you'd rather deal with.
Considering we are still discovering how far reaching those affects are on a woman I seriously doubt we are discussing the same things. Brain changes, kegals for life, mineral defficiencies, joint issues, hormonal differences, etc. Besides the "common knowledge" your body will never look quite the same from relaxing of joints so that you get wider hips, stretch marks, less perky breasts from relaxin, etc, which do not necessarily occur for every woman.
My wife studied that kind of stuff in college and still researches it from time to time. I know you think you're blowing my mind here with your trivia, but I've heard it before.
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Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2015-05-04 18:00:04
Define damaging. Because if you mean life-threatening, I doubt many people have a problem with abortions in that case. An unwanted pregnancy could be deleterious mentally, physically, and financially. It doesn't have to be life-threatening. The reality is that some people are not ready for the responsibility and having the kid won't magically change that.
Going to prison can be deleterious mentally, physically, and financially. Actions have consequences, it's nothing new. Should we remove all consequences from everything while we're at it? You seem to be operating under the concept that choosing to have an abortion (for whatever reason) is consequence free. Or that an unprepared individual not having an abortion is consequence free. Or that adopting-out a child is consequence free. Or giving a child up to social services is consequence free.
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-05-04 18:03:58
You seem to be operating under the concept that choosing to have an abortion (for whatever reason) is consequence free.
Consequence free, consequence reducing, it's all just a matter of choosing which consequences you'd rather deal with.
Considering we are still discovering how far reaching those affects are on a woman I seriously doubt we are discussing the same things. Brain changes, kegals for life, mineral defficiencies, joint issues, hormonal differences, etc. Besides the "common knowledge" your body will never look quite the same from relaxing of joints so that you get wider hips, stretch marks, less perky breasts from relaxin, etc, which do not necessarily occur for every woman.
My wife studied that kind of stuff in college and still researches it from time to time. I know you think you're blowing my mind here with your trivia, but I've heard it before.
I doubt she meant it condescendingly toward you, directly. It was probably for the general thread-goers.
The excessive release of cortisol (the stress hormone) within a pregnant mother's bloodstream can effect future behaviors of a child and can also negatively effect IQ, from what I remember.
Hmmm...Does reading threads that degenerate to the topic of abortion with participants who are willfully ignorant of the bio-chemical intricacies of pregnancy release enough cortisol to effect a baby's IQ? Somebody here should really hop-to!
This just in: anything a woman does or consumes during pregnancy changes a fetus for life. Would you like to start regulating how much sugar, protein, vitamins, water, cheese, fish, exercise, certain types of work, etc a woman can have and do during pregnancy? Stress levels release a hormone which alters the fetus brain chemistry.
EDIT: I think what Kara was trying to get at was that an unplanned pregnancy could be the stresser that has the potential to, chemically, continue a cycle. I could be wrong, though.
Dietary restrictions are in place during pregnancy for a reason. There have been plenty of articles surfacing in the past couple of years about the rate of gestational diabetes growing in the US, also.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-04 18:16:58
Or that an unprepared individual not having an abortion is consequence free. Or that adopting-out a child is consequence free. Or giving a child up to social services is consequence free.
Well at least the latter two give the child a chance at life. And I know pro-choicers love to bemoan the fate of adopted infants, but I'd bet money that a vast majority of them are happy that they didn't get aborted.
The excessive release of cortisol (the stress hormone) within a pregnant mother's bloodstream can effect future behaviors of a child and can also negatively effect IQ, from what I remember.
Even if that were proven to be true, "It likely has a lower IQ. Let's kill it!" seems to be eeking into eugenics territory. It might make the forums a nicer place, though.
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-05-04 18:19:15
Even if that were proven to be true, "It likely has a lower IQ. Let's kill it!" seems to be eeking into eugenics territory. It might make the forums a nicer place, though.
*** me! Who here said that?!? What we're saying is that some people will be negligent to their infant prenatally if it's unwanted. Jesus!
How is that conducive to the overall situation?
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-04 18:24:24
Even if that were proven to be true, "It likely has a lower IQ. Let's kill it!" seems to be eeking into eugenics territory. It might make the forums a nicer place, though. *** me! Who here said that?!? What we're saying is that some people will be negligent to their infant prenatally if it's unwanted.
Jesus! How is that conducive to the overall situation?
Hmm, I was taking it as encouragement for women to get abortions if the baby is unwanted. If that wasn't your intent, then I'm sorry. Hilarious response though, [+] for that.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-05-04 18:53:32
Abortion being legal makes it significantly easier to have below replacement level birth rates. When you have below replacement level birth rates, the number of workers, and therefore taxpayers, declines. This means that businesses either need to offshore jobs, as there is a dearth of available workers, or need to import workers. Businesses being businesses, they will do things as cheaply as they possibly can, the law be damned. Importation of illegal immigrants, whose labor can be exploited for low wages for long and hard hours of dangerous work, means that the jobs in question, instead of having to pay more to make them competitive for the dwindling number of workers, are filled by people who will not be paying taxes (excepting possibly sales taxes, where such things exist), as, being undocumented, illegal workers, employees are not going to withhold earnings or report said employees to the government for tax purposes. This leads to a general devaluation of wages, loss of government income to support programs which allow for things like muh roads, the influx of workers, legal and illegal, who will take jobs for far less than native workers making it an employer's market, and the lowered income meaning that, since businesses will not reduce their prices, passing on savings to the consumer, but will merely pocket the money, that increasingly fewer and fewer people will be able to spend as much money as the businesses would like, total economic activity will decrease, and eventually the businesses will move elsewhere and the economy, and thus society, will collapse. Good heavens, every part of this is wrong. I mean, I can see where you got the idea, but... no, it doesn't work like that. At all.
A reduction in population means a reduction in demand which means a reduction in supply. What kind of lunatic is going to manufacture 5 million baby wipes for a population of 100 babies (disregarding how useful baby wipes are for things other than infant arses)?
More to the point, history has shown repeatedly that a reduction in the labor pool drives real wages up. The Black Plague is basically what created the late medieval middle class and World War II is what created the American 20th century middle class, and that's even in spite of the relative ease of shipping in the 20th century compared to centuries prior. The Baby Boom that coincided with the rise of the middle class is what's ultimately crashed the lives our grandparents and great-grandparents fostered.
It's one of those odd synergistic things where 10 people making widgets can produce at X/hour, but 1,000 people doing the same can produce at 100X+100/hour. There's lots of reasons.
Kill all the babies. The human species is the cockroach of higher mammals: even if 99% of us were wiped out, we'll survive and rise again.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-04 19:04:51
Kill all the babies. The human species is the cockroach of higher mammals: even if 99% of us were wiped out, we'll survive and rise again.
Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2015-05-04 19:13:34
gfdi fone why was i not alerted about this religous or lack there of discussion
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Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2015-05-04 19:14:03
which is apparently now about rape babies...
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-05-04 19:15:03
The thing is this was a discussion about atheism and abortion is a byproduct of being an Atheist or so the P and R story was told... Here at the Atheist factory, we use dead babies as fuel to turn good Christians into Atheist devilspawn. And here I thought that only happened in Oregon.
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Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2015-05-04 19:16:40
i like my dead christian gay HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE cripple rape babies with grape jelly
edit: i forgot to say black as well
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By fonewear 2015-05-04 19:18:25
The thing is this was a discussion about atheism and abortion is a byproduct of being an Atheist or so the P and R story was told... Here at the Atheist factory, we use dead babies as fuel to turn good Christians into Atheist devilspawn. And here I thought that only happened in Oregon.
The only thing I know about the Pacific Northwest is that it rains and the hipsters love it there !
By fonewear 2015-05-04 19:20:53
Kill all the babies. The human species is the cockroach of higher mammals: even if 99% of us were wiped out, we'll survive and rise again.
Kill all the babies you talking about Africa ? Last I checked most of the population of Africa is under 25...
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-05-04 19:21:50
Medical abortions are man made. God is a construct of man as well. Atheism is the result of rejecting previous man made ideas of the universe. Therefore, atheism is man made as well.
Nuclear bombs are man made.
Man itself is a product of nature.
In conclusion abortions, god, atheism, and nuclear bombs are all a product of nature and therefore can and will happen in all possible models and outcomes of the universe in regards to the space time continuum.
Any questions?
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Bismarck.Magnuss
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By Bismarck.Magnuss 2015-05-04 19:23:39
God is man made too, but y'knoooowwww....
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Quote: Madison bans discrimination against atheists, non-religious
MADISON, Wis. — While conservatives in Indiana and Arkansas were explaining last month why their new religious objections laws weren't invitations to discriminate against gays, the leaders of Wisconsin's capital city were busy protecting the rights of another group: atheists.
In what is believed to be the first statute of its kind in the United States, Madison banned discrimination against the non-religious on April 1, giving them the same protections afforded to people based on their race, sexual orientation and religion, among other reasons.
It's hardly surprising that such a statute would originate in Madison, an island of liberalism in a conservative-leaning state and the home of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. But the ordinance's author, Anita Weier, said it didn't arise from an actual complaint about alleged discrimination based on a lack of religious faith.
"It just seems to me that religion has spread into government more than I feel comfortable with," said Weier, who left the council after the statute passed. "It just occurred to me that religion was protected, so non-religion should be, too."
She said it also had nothing to do with what was happening in Indiana and Arkansas, which rolled back their religious objections laws amid heavy criticism that they were meant to give legal cover to people who cite religious reasons for discriminating against gays.
Although there was no dissent when the City Council passed its new statute, some question the need to protect non-believers in liberal Madison from discrimination in the areas of housing, employment and services. Among them is Julaine Appling, the president of Wisconsin Family Action.
"I don't understand why they would add this to that litany of protections in Madison, of all places," she said. "I thought this was an April Fools' joke."
If any minority group deserves further protections in Madison, which embraces its unofficial motto of "77 square miles surrounded by reality," it's conservative groups like hers, said Appling. For example, she pointed to the City Council's attempts last year to create buffer zones to keep protesters away from abortion clinics, which the U.S. Supreme Court later deemed unconstitutional in a Massachusetts case.
Zach Brandon, president of the Madison Chamber of Commerce, said he hasn't heard city business owners express concern about the ordinance, but that's likely because it "doesn't really do anything."
Brandon said expanding the equal opportunities ordinance to include more protected categories could make it obsolete.
Atheists and other non-believers, though, say the statute marks an important step forward for those who aren't religious.
"I think Madison is way ahead of the curve," said Todd Stiefel, the president of Openly Secular, which helps non-religious people become open about their absence of faith.
Stiefel said people who tell their employers or family members that they are not religious face rejection and harassment. He said he's heard from atheists who were fired the day after sharing their non-religious views with their employers or disinherited by their parents after opening up about their lack of faith.
"It boils down to the misinformation and prejudice that gets passed down generation to generation. People have been raised being told that atheists are evil and they eat babies and they can't be trusted." Said Stiefel, adding that he thinks it will be quite a while before another city follows Madison's lead.
Patrick Elliott, a Freedom From Religion Foundation attorney, said the city that's also home to the University of Wisconsin has recently seen an increase in religiously-owned rental housing. While it had not yet created a conflict, the foundation wants to be sure there could be no discrimination, he said.
"Whether someone could have brought a case, we don't know," Elliott said. "It seemed that way, but we didn't have any precedent to support that."
Even though her ordinance passed without objection, Weier said her fellow council members seemed reluctant to embrace her idea or connect their name to it. She also said timing played a large role in her decision to propose the ordinance.
"If I'd been running again, I don't think I would have brought it forward," Weier said. "I think there's discrimination against atheists."
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