Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down By SAM

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Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down by SAM
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 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-19 10:18:03
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http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/18/infowars_russian_media_mh17_ukraine
The Infowar Rages in Moscow
From flying corpses to Spanish air traffic controllers, Russian media are doing their best to muddy the waters around what happened to MH17.

BY ALEC LUHN JULY 18, 2014
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 Valefor.Tsurara
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By Valefor.Tsurara 2014-07-19 10:23:56
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Jesus this is turning into one big mess...
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-19 11:33:42
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
What the... ummm... freedom fighters are today's terrorists, you are aware of this, right?
This I can agree with.

Siren.Mosin said: »
there's a difference between blowing up a military supply depot, & blowing up a marketplace full of civilians.

there is a difference in the terms you are describing.
There is NO difference in those terms.

I lost a good friend to Ronald Regan's "freedom fighters" yes, he was a civilian.

.....

This level of stupidity can't even be thought about.

To refute your statement, there is most certainly a difference between counter-military and counter-population strategies. Targeting your enemies military and industrial systems with the goal of removing their ability to wage war is far different from targeting your enemies community centers in an attempt to wage psychological war on them. It's on par with telling your soldiers to rape the women and children of the people your fighting. It's one thing for non-combatants. to be collateral damage of war, it's quite another for them to be the primary targets.

If you can't comprehend the difference between these tactics then there is no purpose in anyone further communicating with you as you've gone so far over the fence that your no longer operating as a rational human being.
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-07-19 11:37:06
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Unless of course they're approaching from a Total War perspective and view civilian populations of the enemy to be the enemy. By disrupting commerce you are disrupting the financial support and capabilities of your opponents military.
 Ragnarok.Corres
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By Ragnarok.Corres 2014-07-19 13:57:00
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here is an interesting tweet from June 17th 2014 translated:
"Soon above Ukraine (using Ruin as a derogatory name for Ukraine) an airliner stuffed full of euro-tourists will be shot down. This will be the reason for official NATO invitation. That’s the way I see it"

Interestingly, all the previous flights between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur in the past week took a different route. Flight MH17 was the only one to fly over the Ukraine/Russia border. All the other flights went through the Sea

i have 2 Questions for that whole incident:

1. Why was flight MH17 flying through a war zone where 10 aircraft have been shot down?


2. why did 2 ukrainian fighter jets follow the malaysian airliner? minutes before the crash. Even more so why did the air traffic controll instruct MH17 to fly lower?

here we go with conspiracies

edit2: even more conspiracies:

A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash - suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2014-07-19 14:13:15
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Thats some nice spin, I'm sure they will just keep making ***up. Eyewitnesses saw two fighter jets trailing the airline orly? Thats some incredible eyesight, to see two fighters flying at 33,000 feet... how about, no.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-07-19 14:30:11
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
This level of stupidity can't even be thought about.

To refute your statement, there is most certainly a difference between counter-military and counter-population strategies. ....
There certainly is.

The problem is that Regan's "freedom fighters" in both Nicaragua and Afghanistan targeted civilian populations and and civilian leadership. We trained them to do that.

I was not arguing tactics, I was arguing semantics.
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-19 15:57:21
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Sheesh.

No mention of the illuminati new world order in love with the number 7 theory?

/disappointed
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 Odin.Zicdeh
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-07-19 16:09:28
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Ragnarok.Corres said: »
A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash - suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off


Maybe he's speaking in some kind of quantum causality Schrodinger's cat style perspective. The moment they boarded the plane they were dead because the choice they made had only one logical conclusion, I mean really how many planes don't get shot down by high-altitude Surface-to-Air missiles?
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-07-19 16:13:53
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-19 18:38:21
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There was no plane. The Ukrainians, US and NATO planted wreckage, doctored videos and all these grieving families are actually deep cover CIA agents paid by the US as a pretext to invade Russia. If you look closely, Some of these 'family members' are the same PAID ACTORS that were apart of the TWA Flight 800 coverup. I have the pictures.

Wake up sheeple, this is WWIII excuse making. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin and the controlled demolition. Nanothermite. Pentagon missile. Grassy Knoll.
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 Ragnarok.Corres
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By Ragnarok.Corres 2014-07-20 09:21:51
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I don’t mind a good conspiracy theory. The sad thing is that with all the crap we get fed by our media outlets, there is probably more accuracy in some theories than the official reporting we are given.

The downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur appears on the surface, at least by virtue of western reporting, to be a case of dumb arse pro-Russian separatist militia in the Ukraine using sophisticated military equipment in error on a civilian target.

It may turn out that this is exactly what happened. Without the benefit of all the facts, I am not personally able to say one way or the other. Neither are you, the reader. However, one thing we should all do is look at any significant events with possible political outcomes and be suspicious enough to not blindly jump on the media bandwagon.

I have intentionally left out sourcing in this article. Go ahead and google for yourself. I’m not prepared to apply any credibility to any source out there, merely bring together a couple of ideas, some established facts and some of my own observations. It is up to you to form your own opinion, do your own research and see what adds up for you. Ultimately, I have reservations that the results of any official investigation will actually resemble reality, so believe what you will.

Flight MH17 departed Amsterdam Airport Schiphol at 10:14UTC, 14 minutes behind schedule. It disappeared off radar at 13:15UTC. There were 298 people on board the aircraft, it was last detected flying at 33,000 feet, as ordered by Ukraine air traffic control. It had originally filed a plan to fly at 35,000 feet. The minimum advised height in Ukraine Airspace at the time was 32,000 feet.

Ukraine air traffic control have as yet not released radar data and there are suggestions from unidentified sources who apparently were in the Kiev control centre at the time that it is unlikely the data will ever be released. It has been alleged that until three minutes prior to the shoot down there were two Ukrainian Airforce jets flying in close formation with the airliner. These sources claim the aircraft was shot down by an air-to-air missile fired from one of these aircraft.

The US is claiming they have satellite imagery showing a ground based missile launch. Frankly, anyone who believes anything the Americans say without independent verification is a tool.

The Russians claim none of their launcher crews are in Ukraine. Well, they would say that, they aren’t supposed to have any of their personnel there period.

So far very little has surfaced showing the plane come down. The best footage to date is of a fireball at the point of impact. But this does tell us more than you may give credit at first consideration. For example we know there was no fire prior to impact on account of there being no smoke trail. This means the engines were not burning and that the fuel tanks were not ruptured. This helps us confirm that if a missile is the cause, it was a radar guided, not thermal guided device as it did not target the engines.

We also know the rear of the plane was separated most likely at the time of the explosion. It fell some distance from the main body of the wreckage, and bodies, luggage and other debris was scattered between the two main sections of the aircraft.

Bodies which came down with the tail appear to be riddled with injuries consistent with fast moving projectiles. It is important to note that missiles are designed for proximal detonation, not contact detonation. This is so the missile is more effective across a range of scenarios. Relying on contact reduces the likelihood of taking down an aircraft fired from in front of it as the chance of striking the plane is very low, especially against supersonic targets. Instead the missile detonates when within a lethal range, launching a cone of projectiles with a destructive shock wave. Excellent video can be located demonstrating how this works. Needless to say, given the plane does not appear to have been on fire before the ground strike, it seems likely detonation occurred near the rear of the plane. At 63m in length, it is highly probably that any detonation capable of taking a section of the plane off would have been close enough to disable everyone on board with the concussion. It is noteworthy that no distressed call was made, and only the black box recording will tell us if the flight crew made any attempt to control the aircraft after it was hit.

Interestingly, a BUK missile, the type alleged by Ukraine as having brought down MH17, relies on the command post to direct it to target. I am not an expert on how the missile is designed to close on its target, but given it is intended for use against everything from fighter jets to cruise missiles and smart bombs, I would have guessed the missile would be far more accurate than to hit the tail of a large commercial aircraft flying at subsonic speed. Firing from in front of the aircraft, as alleged by Ukraine, and striking the aircraft many kilometres in front of the launcher, I can’t help but wonder why the rear of the plane was hit. It makes me consider the possibility that the allegations of an air-to-air shoot down, with the missile arriving from the rear, has at least a little plausibility. Likewise would a BUK launch from behind the aircraft, coming from inside Ukraine government controlled territory.

Anyone capable of operating one of these systems would be able to use the basic telemetry provided by the computers to identify the target. The system is designed to look for characteristic patterns in the radar signal to determine the shape and probable type of aircraft. Further, the system is scanning for identifying squawking from the target. In this case MH17 would have been identifying itself as a commercial aircraft. The flight would have appeared on the operator’s screen as such.

So what motivation would Ukraine have had for shooting down a commercial aircraft?

Up to this point Ukraine has had very limited support from the West in fighting separatists. They have lost Crimea and currently do not have control of much of the East of the country. Rhetoric is not going to defeat the separatists, sanctions on the Russian leadership are not going to defeat the separatists. Ukraine needs the west to step up and fight its war for it.

I’m not going to ask you to believe that the downing of MH17 is a conspiracy to bring the West into direct conflict with Russia, whether that conflict be military or political. What I ask you to consider, before adding your voice to the choir of condemnation against Russia for its support of the rebels, is that maybe there is more to this than what initially meets the eye. We have seen on numerous occasions that the governments of the West have fooled their populations. Perhaps that isn’t the case here, but perhaps it is.

Think before you let yourself be caught up in the hysteria.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-20 10:02:20
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Calling into question where the plane was hit as indication of what kind of targeting system it used or saying that a trained operator wouldn't have hit the tail is ludicrous. The operators are young men with minimal experience and the targeting can't be any more accurate than the steering on a Lada.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-20 10:12:08
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More tinfoil hat nonsense.

As someone who is very familiar with military weapons platforms, including SAM and their accompanying radar systems, most of what you said is utter ***.

Quote:
Anyone capable of operating one of these systems would be able to use the basic telemetry provided by the computers to identify the target. The system is designed to look for characteristic patterns in the radar signal to determine the shape and probable type of aircraft. Further, the system is scanning for identifying squawking from the target. In this case MH17 would have been identifying itself as a commercial aircraft. The flight would have appeared on the operator’s screen as such.

This is horsesh1t. Not only is that NOT how IFF works, it's not even how missile systems work. Each radar system utilizes a different band of EM for it's scanning and target acquisition. Different materials and design's reflect different EM spectrum in different ways. That's a long way to say that aircraft appear differently on different radar systems. There is no picture with a little green / red outline on it, it's just a set of signal patterns. You wouldn't even know what you were looking at unless you had specialized training that is specific to each radar platform. Further because different aircraft appear differently on each radar platform, someone trained or familiar with one platform would falsely identify signals when operating on a different platform if they were not retrained. There is no automated target analysis and identification no matter what the movies tell you. Instead signals are sent to Intel analysts who develop targeting profiles and then feed them to sites as part of a dataset. Onsite signal's analysts will then compare profiles against their dataset and mark targets accordingly. The missile is then programmed with the targets profile and launched, this is to prevent the missile from hitting something you didn't point it at. This is actually what stealth is all about, confusing enemy radar systems such that they can't identify the target until the target's well within standoff range. People like to talk about small radar cross sections but that doesn't mean sh!t when your moving faster then any natural object could possible move and thus easily discerned as "not a seagull or laden swallow".

Now for your Friend or Foe spiel. IFF is not some universal language or marker between aircraft, it would be useless if it was because enemy aircraft would just squawk "friend" all the time. Instead military systems automatically assumes everything is enemy (ENM/UNK/SUS) unless the aircraft is squawking a code that is itself encrypted by a very controlled key that has a cryptoperiod of about six to twelve hours. And while mode 3 codes are used for civilian airports, they mean absolutely nothing to a military weapons platform.

Anyhow, this is clearly a case of personal operating an advanced weapons system they aren't sufficiently trained on. This wasn't Russian either as they have enough training to not do something like this. This event benefits neither nation politically, though opportunistic individuals will find a silver lining somewhere.
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By fonewear 2014-07-20 18:15:42
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Valefor.Tsurara said: »
Jesus this is turning into one big conspiracy theory...
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By fonewear 2014-07-20 18:17:24
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Ragnarok.Corres said: »
I'm not saying conspiracy theory...but conspiracy theory.


I blame crab people.


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By Grumpy Cat 2014-07-20 18:50:15
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Was it only one missle? I would imagine if it were really a SAM they would have fired twice for the extra skillchain damage.
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 Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-21 08:13:41
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
There was no plane. The Ukrainians, US and NATO planted wreckage, doctored videos and all these grieving families are actually deep cover CIA agents paid by the US as a pretext to invade Russia. If you look closely, Some of these 'family members' are the same PAID ACTORS that were apart of the TWA Flight 800 coverup. I have the pictures.

Wake up sheeple, this is WWIII excuse making. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin and the controlled demolition. Nanothermite. Pentagon missile. Grassy Knoll.

The wreckage was really that of missing flight MH370. The bodies found at the site were taken from local morgues and nearby cemetaries. The real flight MH17, and real passengers, were intercepted and transported safely 1000 years into the future.

Because Millennium.
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By fonewear 2014-07-21 10:16:14
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My summer vacation to the Ukraine has been postponed till further evaluation.
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 Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-21 10:32:58
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But now is probably the best time to fly there.
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-07-21 10:34:06
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OK, this is sounding a LOT like evidence.

Recordings genuine, says US embassy [ with transcripts ] - The Sun Daily

And from that alternate universe that is the Russian news....

MH17: Ukraine fighter jet near plane before crash - Same source

I have no idea what this source is but it seems to be from Kuala Lumpur (their spelling, not mine) and reminds me somehow of the New York Daily News, one of the last sources of yellow journalism still around.
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By fonewear 2014-07-21 10:35:27
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Obama was going to draw a red line but he can't find his magic marker.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-07-21 10:57:02
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fonewear said: »
Obama was going to draw a red line but he can't find his magic marker crayon.
ftfy for accuracy
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By Anna Ruthven 2014-07-21 13:46:12
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Whooo! Whooo!!! Who do you think you are, Biden? You're not God! You don't know who has a soul and who doesn't!

PUTIN DOES HAVE A SOUL!!
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 Asura.Triffle
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By Asura.Triffle 2014-07-21 14:25:22
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Anna Ruthven said: »

Whooo! Whooo!!! Who do you think you are, Biden? You're not God! You don't know who has a soul and who doesn't!

PUTIN DOES HAVE A SOUL!!

What is a soul?
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-07-21 14:26:55
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Asura.Triffle said: »
What is a soul?

That is the greatest, most unanswered question in all of human history.
 Asura.Melbufrauma
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By Asura.Melbufrauma 2014-07-21 14:27:17
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Asura.Triffle said: »
What is a soul?

Isn't that the capitol of South Korea?
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-07-21 14:28:12
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Asura.Melbufrauma said: »
Quote:
What is a soul?

Isn't that the capitol of South Korea?
That's Seoul
 Asura.Melbufrauma
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By Asura.Melbufrauma 2014-07-21 14:29:39
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Asura.Melbufrauma said: »
Quote:
What is a soul?

Isn't that the capitol of South Korea?
That's Seoul
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-07-21 14:31:07
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Asura.Triffle said: »
What is a soul?
It's that thing when you're like owww my feels! And it hurts there, that's the soul! And also to make your life and luck better you have to purge it once in a while with a gigantic enema.

But I might be confusing things, I'm not sure.
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