This was posted in the other thread. Be careful when clicking on the NSFL links.
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/2ayjwz/malaysian_plane_crashes_over_the_ukraine/
Pro-Russian separatists have started deleting pictures they took of their BUK(s) and a tweet gloating about shooting down another military plane, before they went to the crash site. the twitter account has something like 130,000 followers and people took screenshots.
Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down By SAM
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Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down by SAM
No one ever accused these people of being smart.
There were rumors yesterday that 1/3 of the passengers were children. That is still unconfirmed (some of the pictures tweeted show some children's bodies, I don't recommend looking at them or any of the remains pictures). Three infants (under 12 months flying in parents lap) deaths have been confirmed bringing total to 298.
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html Quote: List of number of passengers and crew according to nationality are as follows: Netherlands: 154 Malaysia: 43 (including 15 crew & 2 infants) Australia: 27 Indonesia: 12 (including 1 infant) United Kingdom: 9 Germany: 4 Belgium: 4 Philippines: 3 Canada: 1 Unverified: 41 Total: 298 Edit: Quote: 07:16: A "large number of world-renowned Aids researchers and activists" were on Flight MH17 heading to an international conference in Australia, AP reports from Sydney. Among them was former president of the International Aids Society Joep Lange, a well-known Dutch HIV researcher. Welp, I guess if they wanted to get the world involved in their fight, that was the way to do it.
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Asura.Kingnobody said: » Shiva.Viciousss said: » So we have a Russian backed act of terrorism against the Netherlands, Malaysia, the US, and whomever else was killed on the flight. I'm sure Putin is scrambling to figure out how to blame this on the Ukraine and Obama, don't think the world is going to go for it tho. The Ukraine doesn't just have missile defense systems laying around, and I doubt the separatists even know how to use one. Shiva.Viciousss said: » No one ever accused these people of being smart. Quote: most military systems are designed to be used by people of average or lower intellect That is not entirely true, Some of the systems that i used and were around in langley where not at all able to be operated by people of lesser intellect. Kazumha said: » Quote: most military systems are designed to be used by people of average or lower intellect That is not entirely true, Some of the systems that i used and were around in langley where not at all able to be operated by people of lesser intellect. Which is why the word "Most" was used, versus "All". Cerberus.Cahlum said: » To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines. It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. For anyone interested;
Janes.com said: An airliner cruising at around 30,000 ft altitude would be well above the coverage of shoulder-fired man-portable missile systems, which typically can engage targets flying at up to around 10,000 ft. Ukraine has long-range Soviet-era missile systems in its inventory such as the SA-2, -3, -5, and -12 that would have no difficulty to downing a target flying at 30,000 ft. However, these systems are deployed at permanent launch sites that have launchers and associated radars located at specific locations distributed around the site. Their operators would have a good idea of the air traffic present in the surrounding area, so it would be unlikely to mistake an airliner for a combat aircraft. Downing an airliner flying at normal cruise altitude would require a mobile SAM system such as a Kub (known to the West as the SA-6 'Gainful) or the 'Buk'. Both are in Ukrainian service. The Kub can cope with targets flying at up to 26,000 ft (8,000 m), so it cannot reach the reported cruise height of the airliner. Buk coverage, however, extends up to 72,000 ft, with its maximum range being 32 km. So at first sight, the Buk seems a good candidate for this incident. When fielded, a Buk firing battery consists of: - the 9S18M1Target Acquisition Radar used to acquire potential aerial targets and transmit their position and tracks; - the 9S470M1 Command Post (CP) vehicle (contains the missile battery's data display and control system; digital fire-control computer, which assigns targets to individual launchers; and computes the engagement); and - one or more 9A310M1S launchers each armed with four radar-guided missiles. All three of these systems are vehicle-mounted. In a normal engagement, all three would operate as an integrated weapon system and crew of the CP vehicle are likely to have a good idea of the local air activity. However, a Buk launcher can also operate in stand-alone mode. Its built-in radar is normally used to track the target being engaged, but can be operated in a target-detection mode, allowing it to autonomously engage targets that were present in the radar's forward field of view. Although it has its own identification friend or foe system, this is only able to establish whether the target being tracked is a friendly aircraft. It is the electronic equivalent of a sentry calling out: "Who goes there?". If there is no reply, all you know is that it is not one of your own combat aircraft. It would not give you a warning that you were tracking an airliner. Operating Buk hardware would require a trained crew; with personnel who are currently trained operators or who learned how to operate the hardware while serving as conscripts. Fenrir.Atheryn said: » Cerberus.Cahlum said: » To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines. It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs. Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence. Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Fenrir.Atheryn said: » Cerberus.Cahlum said: » To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines. It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs. Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence. I...I'm not going to deny that the flight course planner lacked common sense. But this sort of comes dangerously close to the concept of victim shaming. Can we acknowledge here that the scumbags are the people who shot the jet with a god damn missle? ><
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Fenrir.Atheryn said: » Cerberus.Cahlum said: » To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines. It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs. Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence. I...I'm not going to deny that the flight course planner lacked common sense. But this sort of comes dangerously close to the concept of victim shaming. Can we acknowledge here that the scumbags are the people who shot the jet with a god damn missle? >< For all we know this was done by automatic missile systems from the Ukrainian army. But definitely don't blame the cheapskates. Cause saving money is more important than saving lives. fonewear said: » I heard shooting down the plane was a new conceptual art project.
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Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Leviathan.Chaosx said: » Fenrir.Atheryn said: » Cerberus.Cahlum said: » To be fair why the hell would you be flying over eastern Ukraine. A Fighter Jet was shot down earlier the same day, seriously who runs these airlines. It's cheaper in terms of fuel expenses to risk flying over a warzone than to navigate around it. Until of course something like this happens, and people stop flying. They flew over a war zone where it was known that planes have been shot down recently, to save a few bucks in fuel costs. Once again money trumps any sense of morality or even basic intelligence. I...I'm not going to deny that the flight course planner lacked common sense. But this sort of comes dangerously close to the concept of victim shaming. Can we acknowledge here that the scumbags are the people who shot the jet with a god damn missle? >< For all we know this was done by automatic missile systems from the Ukrainian army. But definitely don't blame the cheapskates. Cause saving money is more important than saving lives. "We mistook a civillian jet airliner for a bomber" is about as much consolation as "we were just trying to save money". I'm just saying blame the people actively trying to kill other people first, maybe. I guess they need new hobbies in the Ukraine besides shooting down airplanes.
Maybe they should try yoga. Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-; It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much. fonewear said: » Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-; It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much. I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft. It was But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act.
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This is what happens when semi-trained militants get a hold of military grade hardware. It's looking like they knew how to operate it but didn't have the signals analyst to properly identify the electronic signature of what they were targeting. Most likely they got it from one of the bases they took over.
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » fonewear said: » Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-; It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much. I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft. It was But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act. No. In real life there isn't a box over your target telling you its a good or bad guy. There isn't even a picture of the target. Just a radar ping with the ELINT data acquired from it. Actually being able to read and interpret that data then cross reference it with a list of known signatures is an entire speciality to itself. Targeteers go to special schools for each weapons platform the operate on just to learn these things. Otherwise you get them shooting at ***they shouldn't be shooting at. The flight paths are not determined by the airlines. International Civil Aviation Organization does risk assessments and had not warned about travel over this part of Ukraine being dangerous.
Quote: MH17’s flight plan was approved by Eurocontrol, who are solely responsible for determining civil aircraft flight paths over European airspace. Eurocontrol is the air navigation service provider for Europe and is governed under ICAO rules.
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News here said that their aim was Putin's plane which was also supposed to fly along the same path that day. But since I keep reading that this was made by russians I guess it's to try to pass the blame and make Russia look like the victim?
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Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » fonewear said: » Bismarck.Ramyrez said: » Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-; It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much. I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft. It was But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act. They gambled with human lives and lost BIG. Did they have any intent for it to turn out this way. Most likely not... but when you are responsible for the lives of about 300 people and you choose to send them into a war zone after you've been warned about the potential threats... They'll end up taking a beating over this too... Valefor.Sehachan said: » News here said that their aim was Putin's plane which was also supposed to fly along the same path that day. But since I keep reading that this was made by russians I guess it's to try to pass the blame and make Russia look like the victim? |
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