Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 Shot Down By SAM

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
Version 3.1
New Items
users online
Forum » Everything Else » Politics and Religion » Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down by SAM
Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down by SAM
First Page 2 3 4 5 6 7
 Bahamut.Milamber
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: milamber
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-07-18 11:16:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
fonewear said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Nevermind. Guess I'm just being a dirty hippie again. -.-;

It's fine to want peace and love but to expect it is a bit much.

I just feel if you've got the ability to operate a SAM, you've got the ability to differentiate between civillian and military aircraft.

It was probablyclearly a bad judgment call to fly through Ukrainian airspace.

But much like someone who takes a wrong turn and ends up driving through a bad neighborhood and getting mugged or robbed or worse, it's still ultimately on the person actually perpetrating the act.

No. In real life there isn't a box over your target telling you its a good or bad guy. There isn't even a picture of the target. Just a radar ping with the ELINT data acquired from it. Actually being able to read and interpret that data then cross reference it with a list of known signatures is an entire speciality to itself. Targeteers go to special schools for each weapons platform the operate on just to learn these things. Otherwise you get them shooting at ***they shouldn't be shooting at.

I stand corrected on that particular front, then. I was not under the impression real combat is like CoD, but I did think there was some sort of method within the targeting itself that identified these things for you or somehow otherwise allowed you to confirm your target in a more rapid fashion.

Doesn't change the fact some terrorist (freedom fighter, if you're sympathetic) fired a missle without confirming their target and killed 300 innocent people.
It depends on the system; comparing emissions and radar returns against known databases and assigning probable outcomes is a relatively straightforward exercise, as well as providing the (relatively) raw signal for cross checking and allowing checking against any jamming, etc.


Regardless, as you say, it doesn't change the fact that this was a tragedy that didn't have to occur.
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 11:17:23
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.
 Fenrir.Atheryn
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Temptaru
Posts: 1665
By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-18 11:20:44
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
I think it's unreasonable to assume everyone knows how commercial aviation functions considering all passengers do is sit in their seats and mull over the bag fees and stale peanuts.

Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:
- wishing the teenage girl 3 rows back would stop singing at the top of her lungs off key while listening to music on her headphones while everyone is trying to sleep
- wondering which of the Chicken or the Fish will make me the least sick
- praying that the stewardess will offer refreshments again before I pass out from thirst
- contemplating whether or not strangling the woman sitting on the Emergency Exit door (the one labeled with "DO NOT SIT ON EMERGENCY EXIT DOOR" in giant red text) would count as justifiable homicide.
[+]
 Bahamut.Milamber
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: milamber
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-07-18 11:23:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target?
It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.
[+]
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Ramyrez
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:25:11
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.

Maybe it should have been.

But it wasn't.

And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Ramyrez
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:25:46
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target?
It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.

He certainly has his moments.

I'll give him that.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Flavin
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-18 11:28:59
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target?
It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.

He certainly has his moments.

I'll give him that.
Don't we all?
[+]
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Ramyrez
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:32:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target?
It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.

He certainly has his moments.

I'll give him that.
Don't we all?

Fair enough.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: sparthosx
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 11:35:10
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

How much are you taking home from RT?
[+]
 Shiva.Nikolce
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Nikolce
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-07-18 11:37:43
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:

You absolutely must bring your own drinks and snacks on the plane.
I hit the news stand just past security and load up. I have so any snacks in my laptop case pocket it looks like I'm four years old!

Plus bring a good movie and noise canceling headphones. It's the only way to survive without killing the other passengers.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 35422
By fonewear 2014-07-18 11:39:05
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

You card reads good ! They just want to fly through the "danger zone"...songs commences


YouTube Video Placeholder



YouTube Video Placeholder
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Ramyrez
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-18 11:42:43
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:

You absolutely must bring your own drinks and snacks on the plane.
I hit the news stand just past security and load up. I have so any snacks in my laptop case pocket it looks like I'm four years old!

Plus bring a good movie and noise canceling headphones. It's the only way to survive without killing the other passengers.

Last time I flew home from visiting my dad in Arizona I had the absolute worst of all cliches in flying. Person next to me with far too big of a carry-on, I had a cold, couldn't sleep -- even with noise-canceling headphones -- because there was a screaming child kicking my seat whose mothing was a weak-willed ninny. There were layovers at Washington-Dulles for like three hours and my 80+ year-old grandmother who was traveling with me had to go through way more security than a 4' 8" 90-lb woman should ever have to go through.
[+]
 Bahamut.Kara
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Kara
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-18 11:43:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
The MA plane was where it was supposed to be. At the right altitude and on the correct path. The missile that hit the plane was not.

Quote:
According to our information, the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.
https://www.eurocontrol.int/news/mh-17-ukraine

Hindsight:
-maybe Ukraine should have issued a complete no-fly in the area (rather than the limited one they had in place) earlier than yesterday after the crash
-Maybe the pro-Russian seperatists who have been actively shooting down flying military objects over the last month should have issued a no fly zone. If they "control their air" then that is part of their responsiblity
-Maybe ICAO should have adjusted their risk assessments.

According to aviation experts interviewed by Newsweek, it is not uncommon for civilian airlines to travel over conflict zones.
Quote:
Patrick Smith, author of longtime pilot and aviation expert and author of Cockpit Confidential, points out that "hundreds of commercial airplanes fly over Iraq every day."

"There are protocols and safeguards in place for all of these places," he says.

David Ison, assistant professor of aeronautics and chair of the aeronautical science master’s program at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, adds: “It’s not unusual to overfly areas of military activity. We used to fly over live fire."
[+]
 Fenrir.Atheryn
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Temptaru
Posts: 1665
By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-07-18 11:47:35
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Fenrir.Atheryn said: »
Usually whey I fly, my time is spent:

You absolutely must bring your own drinks and snacks on the plane.
I hit the news stand just past security and load up. I have so any snacks in my laptop case pocket it looks like I'm four years old!

Plus bring a good movie and noise canceling headphones. It's the only way to survive without killing the other passengers.

I generally do that, but on a long haul flight there's only so much you can pack.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: sparthosx
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 11:51:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I guess captains are loathe to mention such things.

*intercom sound*
"This is your captain speaking, we'll soon be flying over Baghdad. If you squint you eyes you'll see the black hole of US military spending, the glint of a detonating suicide vest or the blasted ruins of ancient civilizations.

Please keep those tray tables in the upright position though."
[+]
 Lakshmi.Flavin
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Flavin
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-18 11:54:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It won't be as common now lol...

The protocols and safeguards didn't work here...

Just because someone used to do it doesn't make it a good idea...
 Odin.Jassik
VIP
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Jassik
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-18 11:54:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.

Maybe it should have been.

But it wasn't.

And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.


By reports, the airspace they were flying in was NOT considered dangerous, the airspace below 32,000 feet was NOT a no fly zone, and they were flying at 33,000, well in the clear of what could be considered a dangerous route or provocation. Moreover, they broadcast a signal identifying them as a commercial airliner than even soviet era fixed batteries would be able to pick up. So, in order for the plane to have been taken down by a sam battery, it was either a deliberate act of terrorism, or a mistake by untrained people operating a mobile battery like the "Buk". This is more analogous to the "all clear" area between two minefields. This scene comes to mind....

YouTube Video Placeholder
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 11:55:26
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.

Maybe it should have been.

But it wasn't.

And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.
That fact you call them terrorists shows your mind set. Support radicals who overthrow a government, but damn those who stand up against them.

Anything else is just killing time, your mind is set on what the media tells you so why bother?

I never apologized for anyone either.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Flavin
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-18 11:56:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.

Maybe it should have been.

But it wasn't.

And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.
I think the point is that if you know that there's danger ahead you probably shouldn't walk right into it lol...

Your outright dismissal of any negligence on the part of the people responsible for the safety of these flight passengers is pretty concerning too...
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 11:56:51
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Why are you so hot to blame everyone but the people who fired a missle at an unconfirmed target?
It's ChaosX. In other words, someone who tends to stir up ***just for the sake of stirring ***up, gets their jollies from actively baiting people, and provides little to no actual perspective or information.
Says the guy who only contributions to any thread are that of a little kid with his fingers in his ears.
[+]
 Odin.Jassik
VIP
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Jassik
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-18 11:58:01
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.

Maybe it should have been.

But it wasn't.

And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.
That fact you call them terrorists shows your mind set. Support radicals who overthrow a government, but damn those who stand up against them.

Anything else is just killing time, your mind is set on what the media tells you so why bother?

I never apologized for anyone either.

Their operating methodology is that of terrorists, not freedom fighters. Naming rights, by the way, are generally reserved for the winners.
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 12:00:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

How much are you taking home from RT?
As much as you get from NBC.
[+]
 Odin.Jassik
VIP
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Jassik
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-18 12:01:30
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I do get a serious chuckle out of people who subscribe to one narrow viewpoint or source and call everyone else sheep...
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 12:02:35
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Odin.Jassik said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Bismarck.Ramyrez said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

Too bad just based on what's been cited in this thread it's not that clear cut.

Maybe it should have been.

But it wasn't.

And your apologist mindset for terrorists is somewhat disconcerting.
That fact you call them terrorists shows your mind set. Support radicals who overthrow a government, but damn those who stand up against them.

Anything else is just killing time, your mind is set on what the media tells you so why bother?

I never apologized for anyone either.

Their operating methodology is that of terrorists, not freedom fighters. Naming rights, by the way, are generally reserved for the winners.
What the... ummm... freedom fighters are today's terrorists, you are aware of this, right?
 Siren.Mosin
Offline
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: BKiddo
By Siren.Mosin 2014-07-18 12:03:01
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I get all my news from an 11 year old videogame's website.
[+]
 Bahamut.Kara
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Kara
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2014-07-18 12:03:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
I guess captains are loathe to mention such things.

*intercom sound*
"This is your captain speaking, we'll soon be flying over Baghdad. If you squint you eyes you'll see the black hole of US military spending, the glint of a detonating suicide vest or the blasted ruins of ancient civilizations.

Please keep those tray tables in the upright position though."
You can check your flight route before you leave the ground and it is displayed on a map on the plane. At least it has been on every international and European flight I've taken. Either at the front of each section of the plane or on the tv/computer sets on the back of the chairs.

It also lists cruising speed, altitude, and expected time of arrival, updated in real time.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: sparthosx
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 12:03:35
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Mine field up ahead, do not walk across. Then you decided, meh, let's walk across it anyways.

How much are you taking home from RT?
As much as you get from NBC.

Actually I work at PBS so...

Would you like to donate 40 bucks to keep us on the air? For your generous donation you'll get a copy of Bees: Rise of a Swarm and an insulated thermos.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: sparthosx
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-18 12:04:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
I guess captains are loathe to mention such things.

*intercom sound*
"This is your captain speaking, we'll soon be flying over Baghdad. If you squint you eyes you'll see the black hole of US military spending, the glint of a detonating suicide vest or the blasted ruins of ancient civilizations.

Please keep those tray tables in the upright position though."
You can check your flight route before you leave the ground and it is displayed on a map on the plane. At least it has been on every international and European flight I've taken. Either at the front of each section of the plane or on the tv/computer sets on the back of the chairs.

It also lists cruising speed, altitude, and expected time of arrival, updated in real time.

Silly Kara, expecting people to know basic geography.
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-07-18 12:04:12
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Or should we sell some more nuclear weapons to Iran to fund some coked out Nicaraguans again for freedom?
 Siren.Mosin
Offline
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: BKiddo
By Siren.Mosin 2014-07-18 12:04:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
What the... ummm... freedom fighters are today's terrorists, you are aware of this, right?

there's a difference between blowing up a military supply depot, & blowing up a marketplace full of civilians.

there is a difference in the terms you are describing.
[+]
First Page 2 3 4 5 6 7