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[Dev] Voidwatch: Response to Feedback
 Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-01-10 17:45:43
Quote: A medium of being able to put items in the pool for the prior while still having the former would be preferable, but I don't see much wrong with this system.
It's a ***loot system, something should be done. At least in the past events were varied, now all the good stuff comes from VW. While everyone has moved on from x NM, you're still spamming it with a pool of people that gets cut down as the drops come in. Spending 100k per 0/4, very little in return if at all. If the event didn't require 12+ people to obtain the drops, I would understand, but it does. The fix you suggested is great, but the current system is ***.
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 Ragnarok.Kongming
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-10 17:47:35
Quote: A medium of being able to put items in the pool for the prior while still having the former would be preferable, but I don't see much wrong with this system.
It's a ***loot system, something should be done. At least in the past events were varied, now all the good stuff comes from VW. While everyone has moved on from x NM, you're still spamming it with a pool of people that gets cut down as the drops come in. Spending 100k per 0/4, very little in return if at all. If the event didn't require 12+ people to obtain the drops, I would understand, but it does. The fix you suggested is great, but the current system is ***. Weren't you the same person I always saw complaining about Abyssea being easy mode? Why don't you suck it up and accept that this his how SE has chosen to make things more difficult for you.
 Phoenix.Sehachan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-10 17:47:45
Gredival, I don't know what you said cause I'm too tired to go through all those bricks, but I'm sure it was epic.
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Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-01-10 17:49:58
I don't count it, but it's still time lost that I can't get back that could be spent doing other things more worthwhile.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-10 17:51:35
Quote: A medium of being able to put items in the pool for the prior while still having the former would be preferable, but I don't see much wrong with this system.
It's a ***loot system, something should be done. At least in the past events were varied, now all the good stuff comes from VW. While everyone has moved on from x NM, you're still spamming it with a pool of people that gets cut down as the drops come in. Spending 100k per 0/4, very little in return if at all. If the event didn't require 12+ people to obtain the drops, I would understand, but it does. The fix you suggested is great, but the current system is ***.
I understand and agree yes, however it isn't quite as bad compared to previous loot systems as it's being made out to be, which is what I've been attempting to get across, so I worded my argument poorly. I don't think you'll ever be the sole person on a server that doesn't have a drop, and if your linkshell moves on when only a handful of people get a drop... I don't see how any other loot system would be more favorable since it would happen then too.
Lakshmi.Eyrhika
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 764
By Lakshmi.Eyrhika 2012-01-10 17:52:44
Valefor.Prothescar said: »My idea for "fixing" Voidwatch that I posted on the officials a week and a half or so ago:
Having the monsters scale their difficulty, but also scale drop rates, based on the number of players engaging them, say from 6 to 18, would be a reasonable strategy to make Voidwatch more accessible while still making it profitable for a larger group to take part in the event. Obviously the drop rates would also have to be reconsidered as making them even lower than they are now for smaller groups would be preposterous, perhaps have a smaller group of 6~10 people have the drop rate that exists now while a larger group would benefit from enhanced drop rates. A larger group would also benefit from having more reliable procs.
This would serve to, again, make Voidwatch more accessible while still making it rewarding for larger groups, and it would also retain the difficulty of some of the T6 fights (which I personally enjoy).
I would also propose the addition of a token system, similar in fashion to the Trophy system added in Heroes of Abyssea. Tokens would be NM specific and could be traded in to an NPC for the items that the NM drops. Tokens per NM would also be based on group size to maintain the larger groups still being worthwhile. Only the higher tier NMs of their designated chapter and branch would drop these tokens.
Let's say...
Hahava - Intolerable Token
30 tokens - Ganesha's Mask
50 tokens - Ganesha's Mala
80 tokens - Mextli Harness
Voidwrought - Impenetrable Token
30 tokens - Strendu Ring
50 tokens - Strendu Mantle
80 tokens - Fazheluo Radiant Mail
Pil - Varna Token
30 tokens - Aliyat Chakram
50 tokens - Dilaram's Sollerets
80 tokens - Toci's harness
Kaggen - Mantoptera Token
30 tokens - Mantis Eye
50 tokens - Phasmida belt
80 tokens - Mekira Meikogai
Qilin - Zodiac Token
30 tokens - Houyi's Gorget
50 tokens - Fajin Boots
50 tokens - Lux Pugio
100 tokens - Coruscanti
Etc.
Could also add an option on the NPC that allows you to trade certain tokens for certain Magian Trial items so that, after someone already has the drops that they desire from each NM, they still have a reason to repeat the fights.
For example:
5 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Riftsand
10 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Plate
80 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Pouch
10 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Plate
50 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Riftdross
50 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Riftcinder
1 token per fight for a group of 6~11
2 tokens per fight for a group of 12~17
3 tokens per fight for a group of 18
This would still mean that content is repeated several times, but it will also mean that you are eventually guaranteed the drop that you're after. This sort of system would not shorten the lifespan of this content for most people, quelling any concerns that the Developement Team may have toward that topic, however it would allow peace of mind in that after a certain number of successful fights, you are guaranteed to be rewarded.
I have said FOREVER that the best style to loot is what SE did with assault gear you bought with points. No luck involved, the better you did with less people, the more points you got, the faster you got your gear. They did this for ToAU and WoTG, and I really liked it. I could work towards my Iron Ram set, and know its not an exercise in futility.
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Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 378
By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-10 17:57:55
Gredival, I don't know what you said cause I'm too tired to go through all those bricks, but I'm sure it was epic.
You should see the full wall. What I copy-pasta'd were merely the stuff that's directly relevant to his arguments.
It's a manifesto about why everything Abyssea and on has sucked *** comparative to the previous expansions -- it's currently 30 pages (single spaced, 11pt font).
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-10 17:59:12
Not knocking you but the ***, you took the time to type up a 30 page manifesto on why FFXI sucks balls?
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Phoenix.Sehachan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-10 17:59:13
Gredival, I don't know what you said cause I'm too tired to go through all those bricks, but I'm sure it was epic.
You should see the full wall. What I copy-pasta'd were merely the stuff that's directly relevant to his arguments.
It's a manifesto about why everything Abyssea and on has sucked *** comparative to the previous expansions -- it's currently 30 pages (single spaced, 11pt font). I think I'll wait for the movie.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 378
By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-10 18:02:17
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Not knocking you but the ***, you took the time to type up a 30 page manifesto on why FFXI sucks balls?
I use the time I used to spend playing the game trying to personally match all the collective casual whining and bitching that made Square ruin the game.
Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-01-10 18:02:34
Starring Tanaka as the main villain and Sundi as the man who still doesn't know.
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Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 378
By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-10 18:04:45
Starring Tanaka as the main villain and Sundi as the main who still doesn't know.
No Tanaka is a hero who was turned into a martyr due to the unpopularity of his artistic vision because of people's fear and ignorance. To be played by Christian Bale.
The villain is the young deceitful Abyssea director who wages a secret battle from the shadows to use politics to oust Tanaka. Played by Bill O'Reilly or Glen Beck.
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VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-10 18:08:28
I prefer Voidwatch over Abyssea personally. I wouldn't care if we were without abyssea completely and didn't have AF3, empy's, and all that BS that came with abyssea, hated the system.
Voidwatch is just fine as it is right now, it's a long lasting system. I am glad to see random people get the drop because:
I get to do events with people I don't know. If it was still LSONRY then I'd be stuck with the same people no matter what, good or bad. It's more like the days when we invited random people to come to our 6 player parties for exp in a way for me. I get to meet new players and that is good enough of a reason for me. - Abyssea could of been like that, but it promoted so much easy mode you really didn't do anything with more than 2 people unless you're burning weapons or leveling.
It takes time to earn items, and that's all I wanted for the past year.
It's not in an area that is red'ish.
It doesn't have monsters you can kill in 3 hits.
It doesn't have people stealing your monsters because "white is fair game and I like to be an *** wherever I go". - Although I meet plenty of these *** still that like to tell the group that invited them that they suck.
We actually use items a lot now (too much actually, and a bit over powered) which was a huge complaint for me with this game. We never really had an item system that was good for game play, and now we do (a bit too much though).
It's not in an area where you're pretty much a god.
It brought back WoTG characters in the storyline, even though it's not much of one.
It's not such a borefest doing events as abyssea was.
It's brings some good challenges that give even the best groups some hassle once in awhile.
Ragnarok.Kongming
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-10 18:10:53
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Not knocking you but the ***, you took the time to type up a 30 page manifesto on why FFXI sucks balls?
I use the time I used to spend playing the game trying to personally match all the collective casual whining and bitching that made Square ruin the game. You have causality on its head, at least for your analysis of lowmanning. SE adjusted content in response to a dying population: you needed to be able to do the same (and more) with less people because there are less people to do them with. VW is at the behest of people who complained that this was too easy, and now here we are again.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3012
By Fenrir.Leoheart 2012-01-10 18:14:51
After reading Gredivals post I feel as though I've missed a lot of ffxi in it's prime, and I'd love it if fights that were like that were brought back.
If not only to give other players who were not in hnmls's an opportunity to fight something that actually made your heart pump in some situations and filled you with pride and that you actually felt you achieved something.
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Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 378
By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-10 18:15:29
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »You have causality on its head, at least for your analysis of lowmanning. SE adjusted content in response to a dying population: you needed to be able to do the same (and more) with less people because there are less people to do them with. VW is at the behest of people who complained that this was too easy, and now here we are again.
Except that it's still easy to do like Abyssea, just the drops got even more HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.
 Phoenix.Pooman
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 215
By Phoenix.Pooman 2012-01-10 18:21:48
Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »I prefer Voidwatch over Abyssea personally. I wouldn't care if we were without abyssea completely and didn't have AF3, empy's, and all that BS that came with abyssea, hated the system. Lvling jobs to 99 the old way with increasing exp needed per lvl wouldof been a good time sink sure but everyone and their grandma wouldof been exping and there is no way they'd have enough camps to support us all constantly lvling up. If only for that reason ignoring how genius the light system was retaining chains and hard work capping lights while minimalizing d/c effects, it has its benefits and abyssea definitely has its uses.
but yes I'm glad the game didn't end with abyssea, wouldof been an unsatisfying note
I think/hope this is deliberate, but it still makes my head hurt.
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[+]
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2012-01-10 18:32:29
I think/hope this is deliberate, but it still makes my head hurt.
all of these long-winded posts are making my head hurt ~.~
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Ragnarok.Kongming
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-10 18:32:38
Abyssea is just the most up to date content, meaning it's the last content they'll have to come back to and revamp. You know it's going to end with gold border empyrean, this is just a temporary lull while they squeeze more money out of you in between then and now.
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-10 18:39:35
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »Abyssea is just the most up to date content, meaning it's the last content they'll have to come back to and revamp. You know it's going to end with gold border empyrean, this is just a temporary lull while they squeeze more money out of you in between then and now. I'm perfectly fine with that, I want to go back to einherjar and nyzul.
I'm more than fine with that, it's what I've been wanting for awhile.
Ragnarok.Kongming
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-10 18:47:13
That's good. It seems most people in this thread have no idea what they want, only what they don't want. When it's not one thing it's the other, too hot or too cold, you know. Impossible to satisfy ^- ^
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2012-01-10 18:54:42
I'm perfectly fine with that, I want to go back to einherjar and nyzul.
I'm more than fine with that, it's what I've been wanting for awhile.
Its time for you to get rid of that terrible avatar
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-10 18:57:19
I'm perfectly fine with that, I want to go back to einherjar and nyzul.
I'm more than fine with that, it's what I've been wanting for awhile.
Its time for you to get rid of that terrible avatar I did, and 5 people yelled at me for it.
idk what to do :\
Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-01-10 18:59:02
I'm perfectly fine with that, I want to go back to einherjar and nyzul.
I'm more than fine with that, it's what I've been wanting for awhile.
Its time for you to get rid of that terrible avatar I did, and 5 people yelled at me for it.
idk what to do :\ 
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2012-01-10 18:59:20
go back to your old one, duh.
| 01-10-2012 03:02 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep |  |
| Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)
Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.
Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.
Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.
In regards to other feedback we have received, especially about the areas we plan to focus on to address, I would like to go over the planned adjustments.
Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.
Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.
Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.
Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.
Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.
Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.
Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback. | |
| 01-16-2012 04:39 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Hey everyone!
Thank you for all of your feedback.
I would like to answer some of the questions that have been raised in response to the planned adjustments that I announced last week, as well as provide more detailed information on the battle adjustments that will be made.
Now, I am sure that some players are worried that this content will become more difficult to complete or that it will become more difficult to obtain loot, but I would like to assure you that none of the planned adjustments will be disadvantageous for the players.
Freezing issue in certain zones
A lot of players have been reporting freezing issues with Voidwatch in Fort Karugo-Narugo (S). This issue is being addressed with the highest priority.
As a temporary fix, we plan on implementing a Voidwatch battle with the same content as Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) in a different area.
Battle adjustments
Quote: My opinion on Voidwatch is that it is content in which the player must proc weaknesses with the correct timing and use temporary items wisely.
That is exactly what our idea for Voidwatch was at the time of first implementation.
However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.
As a future adjustment, we’re considering lowering the damage that non-targeted characters receive from AoE spells. We will re-evaluate the overall balance once we reduce the damage from AoE spells, but if further adjustments are necessary, we may look into the effects of weaknesses.
※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.
The separation of exploiting weakness and loot
A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items. As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot. | |
| 01-18-2012 04:34 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Howdy!
I would like to make an addition to a planned adjustment that was announced earlier.
The issue at hand is the highest priority issue that we would like to address first before we make any other adjustments. There are many other adjustments we would like to make, but if we make too many adjustments at once, the following issues may occur:
The balance is shifted too quickly, possibly making the game worse
It is difficult to see improvement because too many changes are made
An unexpected adverse effect occurs due to the changes overlapping
To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.
In response to us making adjustments in stages, many of you may feel that we are not making enough adjustments, but we hope you understand that our plan is to continuously make adjustments.
Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.
Now, I will address some feedback that has been submitted.
Quote: I personally like the separation of weaknesses and loot, but I feel like this leads to players simply switching to their strongest jobs to finish content.
In order to avoid content becoming monotonous, an idea we are looking into is not completely separating weakness and loot by increasing the maximum bonus attained through cells and other ascent items. As a result, if there are few players involved, using cells will replace having to proc weakness, and for larger parties, it would be possible to avoid paying the high cost for cells by procing weakness as usual.
We may discover some issues with the above proposal upon our extensive review, but we believe that if we completely separate weakness and loot, it is inevitable that players will lean toward using only their strongest jobs.
In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available. This is a long term goal for us, so it is not possible to make this change all at once, but we will be taking steps one by one to achieve this goal.
Please let us know what you think. | |
| 01-23-2012 02:22 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Greetings!
We will be implementing the below adjustments to Voidwatch during this week’s test server update.
Addition of same battle content as Route: Jeuno 2 - Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) to Beaucedine Glacier.
※Beaudedine Glacier has been added to the list of teleports offered by the Atmacite Refiner.
※The above addition is a provisional change.
We will continue to make adjustments as we see how the current AoE damage adjustments affect battles going forward, so please be sure to submit any feedback you have. | |
| 01-26-2012 01:43 AM | | Gildrein | | Community Rep |  |
| [dev1075] Voidwatch Adjustments
*The following content is in development. Specific details may differ from the release version.
The Jeuno II Voidwatch operation at Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) may also be undertaken at Beaucedine Glacier.
*Beaucedine Glacier will be added as a destination to Atmacite Refiner teleportation menus.
*This is a temporary measure.
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