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[Dev] Voidwatch: Response to Feedback
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-12 12:58:48
You're missing the point. Seemingly intentionally.
Not once did I say "I'm a special butterfly and I should get more gear because I'M FREAKING AWESOME".
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system. I said that, because the majority of people in this thread that complained about someone else getting something they wanted noted that they are also geared poorly.
Hard work should always be rewarded, and you know what? It is.
If you do VW just once, you have that one chance to get it. If you do VW a thousand times, you have a thousand separate chances.
I agree with the system because it gives a fair chance for all players to get something instead of having to join a linkshell and dedicate weeks to months of attending events just to get something. Would players get rewarded by doing it with a linkshell? Of course they would, it doesn't take someone smart to figure that out. The players who put in the most attendance would get the items, and the causal players would be put in the back like they have been since day 1 of the game.
By Brolli 2012-01-12 12:58:50
My argument was you aren't a special butterfly and just because you think you're more skilled and have better gear doesn't instantly qualify you for getting something over someone else that is poorly geared.
You both are players, and you aren't anything special over them. You both are playing the same damn video game and you are both paying the same monthly for that character.
If you go 1/10 good for you, if you go 0/1000 then I'm sorry. There are other systems in the game that are like that, this isn't anything new and you shouldn't be surprised if you get screwed over again from a number generator.
VW shouldn't give control to players to determine who deserves the gear over someone else. Preventing players from getting rare drops they already have and moving it to a different chest is necessary.
You're missing the point. Seemingly intentionally.
Not once did I say "I'm a special butterfly and I should get more gear because I'M FREAKING AWESOME".
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system. if you mean 0/100 in 3 days , that's not effort, i actually love the voidwatch system to avoid the players that think they are "special butterflies" to keep swinging their epeens all over port jeuno or linkshell leadership taking control over items/2004 long waiting lot system, i don't understand you people, complain about how easy abyssea is and that everyone looks like clones but you complain how rare and random vw drops .
By Zeyphr 2012-01-12 12:59:15
My argument was you aren't a special butterfly and just because you think you're more skilled and have better gear doesn't instantly qualify you for getting something over someone else that is poorly geared.
You both are players, and you aren't anything special over them. You both are playing the same damn video game and you are both paying the same monthly for that character.
If you go 1/10 good for you, if you go 0/1000 then I'm sorry. There are other systems in the game that are like that, this isn't anything new and you shouldn't be surprised if you get screwed over again from a number generator.
VW shouldn't give control to players to determine who deserves the gear over someone else. Preventing players from getting rare drops they already have and moving it to a different chest is necessary.
You're missing the point. Seemingly intentionally.
Not once did I say "I'm a special butterfly and I should get more gear because I'M FREAKING AWESOME".
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system.
That's pretty much what i said earlier.
Work ethic should be equivilant to the degree of your reward.
VW does the complete opposite in most cases. Non COR's get the mab bullet off Akvan etc etc.
You can argue for VW in certain cases, but for this case it's a losing arguement
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-12 13:00:41
Broli said: if you mean 0/100 in 3 days , that's not effort, i actually love the voidwatch system to avoid the players that think they are "special butterflies" to keep swinging their epeens all over port jeuno or linkshell leadership taking control over items/2004 long waiting lot system, i don't understand you people, complain about how easy abyssea is and that everyone looks like clones but you complain how rare vw drops are.
So doing more runs isn't 'work'?
Basically your post translates roughly to:
I don't want anyone to have better gear or odds than me because that would be unfair and make elitists have the good gear.
Nevermind that Voidwatch gear cannot be controlled like HNM gear was.
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By Zeyphr 2012-01-12 13:01:21
Sorry for double post but
"Of course they would, it doesn't take someone smart to figure that out. The players who put in the most attendance would get the items, and the causal players would be put in the back like they have been since day 1 of the game. "
You just contradicted your whole arguement. Casual players are put in the back, yes in older content. VW does not support this point since casual players have gone 1/1 on items and have NO IDEA WHAT THERE DOING
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-12 13:02:57
I agree with you on that Zeyphr, but but how do you distinguish between something like that and a rare body that everyone wants, not just cor's?
You can't, and that is why the move to treasure pool idea can not work. Making it so you can not get the same rare/ex item again and moving it to someone else's chest is a better solution to that problem.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-12 13:04:14
Funny some people loathe the "special butterflies" yet consistently forget many of those "special butterflies" are the ones that work out the formulas, answer the gear questions (hauby or byrnie!?), update the wikis, beat the toughest HNMs back in the day and streamlined many of the strategies used to beat content.
But yes, all those people were elitist jerks. Yes, all of them.
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 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2012-01-12 13:06:42
I agree with you on that Zeyphr, but but how do you distinguish between something like that and a rare body that everyone wants, not just cor's?
You can't, and that is why the move to treasure pool idea can not work. Making it so you can not get the same rare/ex item again and moving it to someone else's chest is a better solution to that problem.
1. The loot chest pools are not shared in some massive alliance system and I have NO idea where you even got that idea from.
2. If the person doesn't have the item, they can keep it. If they do, or don't need it, they can put it in the pool. Hey now, that's kinda like your proposed system, except it actually allows players to work as a group to get people items, rather than items being wasted!
You seem to just not like the idea of people lotting or specifying who gets a drop, or even selling a drop, if someone else that got it doesn't need it. If that's the case, I'm not sure why you'd play any online game where one person can work harder than another and obtain something they want.
And WHO CARES if people can sell items. If you're a person that doesn't have time to do 3000 Kaggans, but you happen to be a great crafter. Why shouldn't you be able to buy the item off a group that is willing to sell?
You can't monopolize VW like kings, so the argument is completely invalid. It's like you guys don't even think through your arguments.
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Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-12 13:06:48
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system.
This cannot be your objection to the system unless you actually believe different IP addresses have different drop rates. The more "Hard Work" you do in Voidwatch, the more drops you'll get on average.
You haven't see the average yet? You're incredibly unlucky? Your N is low.
By Zeyphr 2012-01-12 13:07:19
Treasure pool idea is a bad idea, it will bring back Leaders > Members no matter how they distriput the loot/lotting system.
As for duplicates, i agree on this, as long as it would be re rolled to another member. This would allow people who already have the item to tag along to the fight and thus increase chances of obtaining certain gear. But i think having items you CAN'T use or do not have right level/jobs, should not drop to the player
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-12 13:07:55
Sorry for double post but
"Of course they would, it doesn't take someone smart to figure that out. The players who put in the most attendance would get the items, and the causal players would be put in the back like they have been since day 1 of the game. "
You just contradicted your whole arguement. Casual players are put in the back, yes in older content. VW does not support this point since casual players have gone 1/1 on items and have NO IDEA WHAT THERE DOING I understand, but my argument before was why does someone who knows how to use something deserve something over someone who doesn't?
I agree that a skilled player will make use out of the item more, but that doesn't mean you'll get a larger boost from it than what you previously had. Your performance will not increase as much as it would with someone who is poorly geared.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-12 13:10:48
Voidwatch is a great demonstration of why Communism is good on paper and fails in practice.
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By Zeyphr 2012-01-12 13:11:30
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system.
This cannot be your objection to the system unless you actually believe different IP addresses have different drop rates. The more "Hard Work" you do in Voidwatch, the more drops you'll get on average.
You haven't see the average yet? You're incredibly unlucky? Your N is low.
You seem to think that hard work will lead to obtaining gear in voidwatch, which is true to a certain extent. It's been said millions of times, you can go 1/1 on an item and never go back to that NM.
If a group kills Pil 50 times and one person goes 1/50 on a body, and another person goes 20/50 on the body, and 30/50 on w/e else it drops (eva ammo i think?) how does that justify putting in hard work? They have both put in the same amount of work and yes i know the numbers are absurd but it's an example
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2012-01-12 13:14:56
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system.
This cannot be your objection to the system unless you actually believe different IP addresses have different drop rates. The more "Hard Work" you do in Voidwatch, the more drops you'll get on average.
You haven't see the average yet? You're incredibly unlucky? Your N is low.
Oh I understand statistics just fine. I even realize that it all averages out. And a good player is just as likely to go 1/1 as a crappy player. There are just A LOT more crappy players than good players, so it's more likely that a casual will go 1/1 and a good player with go 0/300 (current Kaggan number for me).
Putting item in loot pool fixes nearly everything wrong with VW, and the ONLY reason not to do this is to prolong VW as an event, as even Kallila admitted.
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 Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2012-01-12 13:15:08
This thread has turned into a loop. 
By Zeyphr 2012-01-12 13:18:04
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system.
This cannot be your objection to the system unless you actually believe different IP addresses have different drop rates. The more "Hard Work" you do in Voidwatch, the more drops you'll get on average.
You haven't see the average yet? You're incredibly unlucky? Your N is low.
Oh I understand statistics just fine. I even realize that it all averages out. And a good player is just as likely to go 1/1 as a crappy player. There are just A LOT more crappy players than good players, so it's more likely that a casual will go 1/1 and a good player with go 0/300 (current Kaggan number for me).
Putting item in loot pool fixes nearly everything wrong with VW, and the ONLY reason not to do this is to prolong VW as an event, as even Kallila admitted.
I disagree, VW can be fixed without a treasure pool idea. If items dropped to playes with the job at the right level etc, rather than people without hte job that would solve a huge plot hole, as well as removing duplicates.
Your idea is trying to gear good players > crappy it seems. Well almost every good player is in a LS due to gaining emps etc. So if you implimented this idea, how would anyone in the ls group be more deserving than others? Your all a team player, have helped each other get emps.
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By Ragnarok.Crunkie 2012-01-12 13:18:12
This thread has turned into a loop.
Can we just lock the thread now? Nothing useful to read here...
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Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2012-01-12 13:21:36
What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded.
I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system.
This cannot be your objection to the system unless you actually believe different IP addresses have different drop rates. The more "Hard Work" you do in Voidwatch, the more drops you'll get on average.
You haven't see the average yet? You're incredibly unlucky? Your N is low.
Oh I understand statistics just fine. I even realize that it all averages out. And a good player is just as likely to go 1/1 as a crappy player. There are just A LOT more crappy players than good players, so it's more likely that a casual will go 1/1 and a good player with go 0/300 (current Kaggan number for me).
Putting item in loot pool fixes nearly everything wrong with VW, and the ONLY reason not to do this is to prolong VW as an event, as even Kallila admitted.
I disagree, VW can be fixed without a treasure pool idea. If items dropped to playes with the job at the right level etc, rather than people without hte job that would solve a huge plot hole, as well as removing duplicates.
Your idea is trying to gear good players > crappy it seems. Well almost every good player is in a LS due to gaining emps etc. So if you implimented this idea, how would anyone in the ls group be more deserving than others? Your all a team player, have helped each other get emps.
No lol.
I have all jobs at 99 and only play 12 of them. I shouldn't get drops for the other jobs "just for having them".
I'm not for "equipping good players over crappy one", I'm for allowing a system where a LS or group can work towards equipping their people without seeing the same people get items over and over (me 0/300 on Kaggan body while my wife has had to drop the body 3 times).
There is no positive attribute of the current VW system other than prolonging minimal content (I seem to need to repeat this because it's not sinking in).
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-12 13:22:34
I disagree, VW can be fixed without a treasure pool idea. If items dropped to playes with the job at the right level etc, rather than people without hte job that would solve a huge plot hole, as well as removing duplicates.
This is impossible as the game cannot tell what jobs you have before it sorts out loot and if you mean based on the job you're currently on then everyone would want to go on the same jobs ruining the point of job variety at VWNM.
There are only two ways to solve this issue:
1. Point system
2. 'Add to pool' upon kill.
Option 1 keeps gear from being sold, creates incentive to repeat but would take work on SEs behalf to make happen. Option 2 is the quick fix but opens the door to selling loot, still keeps certain pieces uber rare and offers little solution to the question of 'where is the progress?'
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By Asura.Miyara 2012-01-12 13:24:20
There is a third, far easier and simple solution. Make all VW gear Rare, and get rid of EX so people can just sell the pieces they don't need.
 Sylph.Zohnax
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By Sylph.Zohnax 2012-01-12 13:29:07
Another interesting solution that I'm sure would be somewhat reasonable would be say, the more you rely on procs and temps the lesser your rewards. Would provide a bit of a challenge to those fights instead of pop Fanatic's, beat on mob, proc, pop Fanatic's, etc.
By Zeyphr 2012-01-12 13:31:34
Having a Add to Pool idea would just bring back the old days where leaders got all the gear first. I hate to say it but as it stands with how VW works now, the system it works in makes it entirely fair BUT, the way it processes drops etc is poor.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-12 13:36:11
Uh you could just not add to pool if you get a drop and don't like the terms of loot distribution.
You make it seem like people know if you get a Toci's or something. Leaders can't control loot if they don't know its dropped off the last kill.
By Zeyphr 2012-01-12 13:42:48
Yeah cause that'd be a smart move in the long run. They don't know it's dropped to you yet a few days later you have it equipped?
What if this happens multiple times, it wouldn't go unnoticed
Inb4 got it from /shout group.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-01-12 13:44:38
Yeah cause that'd be a smart move in the long run. They don't know it's dropped to you yet a few days later you have it equipped?
What if this happens multiple times, it wouldn't go unnoticed
Inb4 got it from /shout group.
And why couldnt you just say you got it in a pick up? lol there is no way they could tell one way or another.
That and, don't be in a shitty LS that would make you give up an item that is rightfully yours?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-12 13:47:17
Yeah cause that'd be a smart move in the long run. They don't know it's dropped to you yet a few days later you have it equipped?
What if this happens multiple times, it wouldn't go unnoticed
Inb4 got it from /shout group.
And what are they going to do? Boot me if I said I got it from a PUG? Prove I didn't. Oh right, you cant.
Again, it'd be damn near impossible to control loot under such a system unless your leader is paranoid and demands screenshots be put up every run.
By Latifah 2012-01-12 13:59:23
this thread is getting rly boring to read, people posting the same but with different words, needs to be locked
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-12 14:00:39
this thread is getting rly boring to read, people posting the same but with different words, needs to be locked Or instead of saying it needs locked, you could post suggestions you think that would fix the system that haven't been said already.
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 Carbuncle.Crollion
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By Carbuncle.Crollion 2012-01-12 14:00:59
The issue with adding to poll is as many stated 2004 style control I sat threw that bs for years did I get much out of it nope even had all my points taken from me cause I'd be potting good stuff over sacks and ls pets. Beyond that bs I do like the transfer chest idea cause I run with friends a lot and sometimes they get stuff the don't need and would give it to others but everyone isn't like that. Vw rates suck yes I do hate seeing people go 1 for 1 on ***but I keep going at it. I think the system is good just up the drop rates a bit cause hearing people go 0 for 300 is nuts if u ask me u get more annoyed then anything else tbh.
I know some know the pain of fat and nix back in the day dropping crap or being out claimed guess what nothing's. Changed vw same crap just u pop when u want and pray hell I did hundreds of fads and nids rarely ever saw a ridill or e body and let's not talk about the notorious d ring that almost never dropped people didn't ***. But abyss spoiled a lot of people that's why everyone iss raging over drops
| 01-10-2012 03:02 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep |  |
| Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)
Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.
Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.
Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.
In regards to other feedback we have received, especially about the areas we plan to focus on to address, I would like to go over the planned adjustments.
Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.
Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.
Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.
Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.
Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.
Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.
Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback. | |
| 01-16-2012 04:39 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Hey everyone!
Thank you for all of your feedback.
I would like to answer some of the questions that have been raised in response to the planned adjustments that I announced last week, as well as provide more detailed information on the battle adjustments that will be made.
Now, I am sure that some players are worried that this content will become more difficult to complete or that it will become more difficult to obtain loot, but I would like to assure you that none of the planned adjustments will be disadvantageous for the players.
Freezing issue in certain zones
A lot of players have been reporting freezing issues with Voidwatch in Fort Karugo-Narugo (S). This issue is being addressed with the highest priority.
As a temporary fix, we plan on implementing a Voidwatch battle with the same content as Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) in a different area.
Battle adjustments
Quote: My opinion on Voidwatch is that it is content in which the player must proc weaknesses with the correct timing and use temporary items wisely.
That is exactly what our idea for Voidwatch was at the time of first implementation.
However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.
As a future adjustment, we’re considering lowering the damage that non-targeted characters receive from AoE spells. We will re-evaluate the overall balance once we reduce the damage from AoE spells, but if further adjustments are necessary, we may look into the effects of weaknesses.
※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.
The separation of exploiting weakness and loot
A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items. As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot. | |
| 01-18-2012 04:34 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Howdy!
I would like to make an addition to a planned adjustment that was announced earlier.
The issue at hand is the highest priority issue that we would like to address first before we make any other adjustments. There are many other adjustments we would like to make, but if we make too many adjustments at once, the following issues may occur:
The balance is shifted too quickly, possibly making the game worse
It is difficult to see improvement because too many changes are made
An unexpected adverse effect occurs due to the changes overlapping
To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.
In response to us making adjustments in stages, many of you may feel that we are not making enough adjustments, but we hope you understand that our plan is to continuously make adjustments.
Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.
Now, I will address some feedback that has been submitted.
Quote: I personally like the separation of weaknesses and loot, but I feel like this leads to players simply switching to their strongest jobs to finish content.
In order to avoid content becoming monotonous, an idea we are looking into is not completely separating weakness and loot by increasing the maximum bonus attained through cells and other ascent items. As a result, if there are few players involved, using cells will replace having to proc weakness, and for larger parties, it would be possible to avoid paying the high cost for cells by procing weakness as usual.
We may discover some issues with the above proposal upon our extensive review, but we believe that if we completely separate weakness and loot, it is inevitable that players will lean toward using only their strongest jobs.
In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available. This is a long term goal for us, so it is not possible to make this change all at once, but we will be taking steps one by one to achieve this goal.
Please let us know what you think. | |
| 01-23-2012 02:22 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Greetings!
We will be implementing the below adjustments to Voidwatch during this week’s test server update.
Addition of same battle content as Route: Jeuno 2 - Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) to Beaucedine Glacier.
※Beaudedine Glacier has been added to the list of teleports offered by the Atmacite Refiner.
※The above addition is a provisional change.
We will continue to make adjustments as we see how the current AoE damage adjustments affect battles going forward, so please be sure to submit any feedback you have. | |
| 01-26-2012 01:43 AM | | Gildrein | | Community Rep |  |
| [dev1075] Voidwatch Adjustments
*The following content is in development. Specific details may differ from the release version.
The Jeuno II Voidwatch operation at Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) may also be undertaken at Beaucedine Glacier.
*Beaucedine Glacier will be added as a destination to Atmacite Refiner teleportation menus.
*This is a temporary measure.
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