Would the difference in their damage, or w/e, be greater than if it went to someone that was geared poorly?
I'm not talking about how much they do, but rather how much it would help them.
I think that players get too upset over poorly geared players getting something over them when they themselves have dedicated a lot of work to gear appropriately.
But if you got that piece of gear, chances are the stat increase from what you previously had isn't as great as it would of been if the poorly geared player got it instead. So wouldn't they benefit more from it?
I'm not trying to say that poorly geared players should always get good gear, just asking a general question about why people get upset over poorly geared players getting something.
[Dev] Voidwatch: Response To Feedback
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[Dev] Voidwatch: Response to Feedback
What has this thread become overnight lol...
Anywho, the idea that a large shell was an indicator of skills or expertise is a complete joke and this comes from a person who co-ran day to day operations in one of those giant shells that people love to pass judgement on. If there is an event you can think of, I have beaten it or led a group of people through it when it was relatively new. (The sole exception would be PW which took a while to build and for leaders to OK attempting and AV which I didn't beat till 80 cap) Yet from my experiences as a leader in this sort of shell I arrived at a far different conclusion from Gredival over my years of experience and that's that XI needed to start catering to casual players instead of being what it was for far too long - a place where people exploited tools and people for a small drippings of loot. There was very little skill and simply an arms race of how many people you could bring to a zone to "camp" an HNM for loot. Sandworm? DI? Kings? World Pops? All tests of claims rather than skill. A and B teams existed in every HNMLS and it was easy to tell who was fluff and who actually had an idea of how to play. (I will admit though that Lambton Worm was pretty challenging the first and second time we came across him.) So much "playing" FFXI amounted to alot of AFKtime. It was bad PvP at best, an insidious plot on behalf of the devs to keep people occupied from the lack of content at worse. Anyone recall all the content that never got a fair shake because SE felt to keep Kings on top? Too many to list really. I daresay that the Moblin Maze Mongers NMs were harder than Kings and were a better test of skill. Why cater to casuals? Because that allows a game more resources to grow and expand. Part of what killed XI is that everything was so damn over the top that only the tiny fraction of people remained. If Abyssea had continued scaled back with regards to Atmas, you'd have people who got a challenge, casuals who felt they were getting enough instant gratification to resub or continue subbing, hardcores who could have their 'challenge' (grind) and an overall better game due to SE getting more revenue to reinvest. Instead what we get is voidwatch, a system where all segments of players get equally screwed with logs and ore. If they're running the games on bare bones so bad just add a list of items redeemable with Voidwatch points and update it come patch time already. And that solves VWNM and WoE in short.
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Phoenix.Sehachan said: » I just think that doubles shouldn't happen and should be authomatically or manually re-randomed to someone else's chest. If another player has awesome gear and is still terrible nonetheless...sucks to be him. If the game truly shares the loot and say the body dropped and the game decided which chest got it, then the game also consider who already doesn't have that item. Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » Instead what we get is voidwatch, a system where all segments of players get equally screwed with logs and ore. If they're running the games on bare bones so bad just add a list of items redeemable with Voidwatch points and update it come patch time already. Feelings aside, and from a statistical standpoint, if people are getting the drops as much as people are claiming that randoms get it over them, then the system is working. Why? Because in HNM days casual players had no chance to get the rare gear unless they joined them and started using a bot. In voidwatch anyone can get the rare item, and that is more fair than a handful of people who are willing to cheat 24/7 or have a mountain of gil to give for that 1 sword. VW does not cater well to the people who put in long hours and spam the NM to get what they want, it caters to everyone and gives them a fair shot. When it drops, if you have a full alliance of 18 then your chances are 1/18. For all we know, the rare item might only drop 1-2 times in a single fight and then randomized who gets it. If that were true, then logically the best solution would be to get it at 1%, then have the person who needs it use temp items to hold it while everyone else runs out of range and the person left to gain the rare item kills it. That more likely is false, but we just don't know how the system works. Fair shot? No.
VW caters to the idea that working towards something shouldn't net you rewards. Rather random number generators should net you rewards. There is nothing good about the VW drop system, and casuals SHOULDN'T be getting the elite drops with minimal effort while elite/dedicated players spend 100 times the effort and come up empty.
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: » Fair shot? No. VW caters to the idea that working towards something shouldn't net you rewards. Rather random number generators should net you rewards. There is nothing good about the VW drop system, and casuals SHOULDN'T be getting the elite drops with minimal effort while elite/dedicated players spend 100 times the effort and come up empty. It is the same reason they made HNM's poppable, to allow a normal player the same chance as a hard working dedicated player who would be willing to monopolize the NM if they could, but cant. Essentially, all it comes down to in the end is this:
You get something, or you don't. It's like that whatever way you look at it. Siren.Kalilla said: » The main complaint I've read from this topic is people go 0/300+ while some random gets the rare drop. Feelings aside, and from a statistical standpoint, if people are getting the drops as much as people are claiming that randoms get it over them, then the system is working. Why? Because in HNM days casual players had no chance to get the rare gear unless they joined them and started using a bot. In voidwatch anyone can get the rare item, and that is more fair than a handful of people who are willing to cheat 24/7 or have a mountain of gil to give for that 1 sword. VW does not cater well to the people who put in long hours and spam the NM to get what they want, it caters to everyone and gives them a fair shot. When it drops, if you have a full alliance of 18 then your chances are 1/18. For all we know, the rare item might only drop 1-2 times in a single fight and then randomized who gets it. If that were true, then logically the best solution would be to get it at 1%, then have the person who needs it use temp items to hold it while everyone else runs out of range and the person left to gain the rare item kills it. That more likely is false, but we just don't know how the system works. Except your response precisely describes why the system is rubbish. Casual players by nature do not have much time to play and thus ideally want to see progress every time they log in be that however short it may be. Under the current system you can do 2-3hrs of voidwatch a day for a week and have gone nowhere or gotten drops all because of a dice roll. Casual players also are known for not putting too much dedication into a system so after seeing no drops after say... kill #25 they'll be more likely to hang up the game, cancel sub and move on to greener pastures. To a casual the game isn't worth grinding if you aren't assured some form of reward for the effort put in. This is revenue walking out of the door because of a lack of SE responsiveness to player feedback. Keep in mind that many of today's casuals could have been yesterdays hardcore players and people simply may not have the time to play XI as much as they used to. People like goals yet Voidwatch promotes no such thing, it merely instructs you to repeat until you finally get that drop be that in 5 or 500 kills. HNMs had a social factor, ZNMs had good droprates behind picture-taking, MMM had challenge, Abyssea had short-term rewards, Nyzul Isle had variety, Salvage had precision and Voidwatch has none of these. Hardcore players who hammer the system are frustrated because many put an element of 'status' on time dedications. Why should the casual have an equal shot with me, the guy putting in 7hours of Voidwatch/day for 7 days a week? Yet this is what the situation is right now. This is what frustrates many people, that they see drops being sorted out in such a random fashion that dedication means nothing. You're better off resting on your laurels because all of the extra work organizing a run puts you in the same league as the scrub in pink gear noobing it up all run complaining about not being able to hit procs. A point system solves all of this while maintaining the timesinks SE needs to badly at this point in the game. The reluctance to do something screams 'kings!' and will likely have the same poisonous effect on the game.
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I suggested earlier that you could earn 1 point for that NM every time you complete it, and after get something rare your points reset back to 0.
rare meaning rare armor/weaopns w/e or heavy metal pouches. a single heavy metal could be like -3 points. The more you do it the higher chance you have at getting something rare. This only works of course if the system doesn't randomize who gets what, but is random based on your chest alone. This would also mean that it is possible get 2-5+ bodies on a single run which I have never heard about. there is nothing wrong with voidwatch whatsoever btw i need those ores to finish smithing so i dont understand all the bitching
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Bismarck.Anjisnu said: » there is nothing wrong with voidwatch whatsoever btw i need those ores to finish smithing so i dont understand all the bitching Get to mining, it's more challenging making 4 ingots/hr.
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One of the most annoying factors is the rare/ex gear. Because of the way the loot drop system works its possible to get the same rare/ex item in the chest that you already have. How is it fair that the last 6 Voidwroughts i killed in an alliance I got 4 Strendu Rings while others saw none?
Bahamut.Yeffebel said: » One of the most annoying factors is the rare/ex gear. Because of the way the loot drop system works its possible to get the same rare/ex item in the chest that you already have. How is it fair that the last 6 Voidwroughts i killed in an alliance I got 4 Strendu Rings while others saw none? I don't agree with moving anything to the treasure pool but making a check to see if you have that rare/ex item already and if you do it re-randomizes and goes to someone else is necessary for VW.
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thing is though i buy the ores off ah i do voidwatch because i actually like the fights done over 150 qilin runs before i got nq dagger 1/8 on mekira body though
Siren.Kalilla said: » Bahamut.Yeffebel said: » One of the most annoying factors is the rare/ex gear. Because of the way the loot drop system works its possible to get the same rare/ex item in the chest that you already have. How is it fair that the last 6 Voidwroughts i killed in an alliance I got 4 Strendu Rings while others saw none? I don't agree with moving anything to the treasure pool but making a check to see if you have that rare/ex item already and if you do it re-randomizes and goes to someone else is necessary for VW. Ya thats the only thing i think needs to be changed really. i mean if that were the case then ppl wouldnt go 0/150+ because each run would give a chance to have a new player get the item they need/want/dont have. honestly thats the only thing i find stupid about the system. but then again that doesnt help the rmting. so i can see why this might not get fixed No offense Kalilla, but if you don't think you should be able to move items from the treasure chest to the pool then you don't really understand the game very well, or the current problems.
And no, the rare items aren't randomized among the people that are in the alliance. It's all random by person. There is only ONE reason we can't move items to the treasure pool, and that's to prolong the life of VW so SE can be lazy. I'm really confused why you'd even attempt to argue for the current system, unless you've been SO disgusted over the years that players that were more dedicated got more items that you just REALLY love any system that has no reward for effort/dedication.
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Is RMT'ing even that much of an issue anymore?
Why would you buy gil when it's so easy to make? >.> Siren.Kalilla said: » Is RMT'ing even that much of an issue anymore? Why would you buy gil when it's so easy to make? >.> i dont think rmting is an issue but SE is obviously taking actions to prevent it. or hurt it. i mean there is no other reason for this loot system if not to hurt rmting. honestly. there is no reason for it. Phoenix.Neosutra said: » I'm really confused why you'd even attempt to argue for the current system, unless you've been SO disgusted over the years that players that were more dedicated got more items that you just REALLY love any system that has no reward for effort/dedication. The good thing about a completely random system is there is no way to abuse it :/
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I haven't received rmt tells in 2 years :o
Ragnarok.Ashman said: » Phoenix.Neosutra said: » I'm really confused why you'd even attempt to argue for the current system, unless you've been SO disgusted over the years that players that were more dedicated got more items that you just REALLY love any system that has no reward for effort/dedication. The good thing about a completely random system is there is no way to abuse it :/ well there is. its just harder. Ragnarok.Ashman said: » Phoenix.Neosutra said: » I'm really confused why you'd even attempt to argue for the current system, unless you've been SO disgusted over the years that players that were more dedicated got more items that you just REALLY love any system that has no reward for effort/dedication. The good thing about a completely random system is there is no way to abuse it :/ This is a faux argument. You can't say "VW not rewarding dedication and instead just randomly distributing items to people that don't need the items is GREAT because there was an old system 5 years ago where some people couldn't get items if they didn't play much." One system is not good just because another system was bad. VW could not be "abused" by putting items in treasure pool. There are multiple pop spots and you can do 50 kills a day if you wanted. The "random" person could STILL get the "random" rare drop, and thus get a chance at goods. We'd just have it so the DAMNED MULES and people without jobs don't get the drops they can't use (or get the drop 5 times in a row and not be able to transfer it). It's a silly argument to even pretend to defend this system.
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: » No offense Kalilla, but if you don't think you should be able to move items from the treasure chest to the pool then you don't really understand the game very well, or the current problems.
Phoenix.Neosutra said: » And no, the rare items aren't randomized among the people that are in the alliance. It's all random by person. Phoenix.Neosutra said: » There is only ONE reason we can't move items to the treasure pool, and that's to prolong the life of VW so SE can be lazy. A tiered system in between abyssea and ToAU content should be a big enough clue for you to figure that out. Phoenix.Neosutra said: » I'm really confused why you'd even attempt to argue for the current system, unless you've been SO disgusted over the years that players that were more dedicated got more items that you just REALLY love any system that has no reward for effort/dedication. I NEVER said players who do less work deserve gear over players who work their *** off. I said that VW is a lottery system. Also, things did need to change. I am tired of players claiming they deserve something over someone else based on their gear and skill. So what if you could use it better, it isn't going to boost your performance as much as it would theirs. I am glad that players get drops, I never got anything good myself from VW. Being able to give drops to the most dedicated players was okay during HNM because you needed players who attended to get things done. In VW you only need to fill in the spots with random players, so you are doing the same amount of work as they are for that run. I'm sorry if you're 0/300+, I don't think that should ever happen. I'm sorry you're upset that random people go 1/1 or 1/20 on something you want, but you aren't doing anything super special for that run that gives you the right to own something over someone else. You all are working as a team, and if you get screwed again while someone gets lucky then that sucks for you, but that person is having a grand time and I'm glad they are happy. This game shouldn't be taken so seriously, especially as serious as it was during HNM glory days. The game should be fun and VW has major flaws but I don't think we should have to resort to giving players the control over who gets what because then the one getting screwed is personal, not some random number generator doing it.
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The only argument you had there was:
VW wouldn't last very long. No ***. Arguing that MINIMAL content SHOULD be stretched out for NO reason other than to waste time is dumb. My argument was you aren't a special butterfly and just because you think you're more skilled and have better gear doesn't instantly qualify you for getting something over someone else that is poorly geared.
You both are players, and you aren't anything special over them. You both are playing the same damn video game and you are both paying the same monthly for that character. If you go 1/10 good for you, if you go 0/1000 then I'm sorry. There are other systems in the game that are like that, this isn't anything new and you shouldn't be surprised if you get screwed over again from a number generator. VW shouldn't give control to players to determine who deserves the gear over someone else. Preventing players from getting rare drops they already have and moving it to a different chest is necessary.
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: » Arguing that MINIMAL content SHOULD be stretched out for NO reason other than to waste time is dumb. This thread has turned into a loop.
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Phoenix.Sehachan said: » This thread has turned into a loop. A perpetual motion device! Siren.Kalilla said: » My argument was you aren't a special butterfly and just because you think you're more skilled and have better gear doesn't instantly qualify you for getting something over someone else that is poorly geared. You both are players, and you aren't anything special over them. You both are playing the same damn video game and you are both paying the same monthly for that character. If you go 1/10 good for you, if you go 0/1000 then I'm sorry. There are other systems in the game that are like that, this isn't anything new and you shouldn't be surprised if you get screwed over again from a number generator. VW shouldn't give control to players to determine who deserves the gear over someone else. Preventing players from getting rare drops they already have and moving it to a different chest is necessary. You're missing the point. Seemingly intentionally. Not once did I say "I'm a special butterfly and I should get more gear because I'M FREAKING AWESOME". What I said was: Hard work should be rewarded. I sincerely cannot believe you're arguing for this system. |
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