[Dev] Voidwatch: Response To Feedback

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[Dev] Voidwatch: Response to Feedback
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 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-01-12 04:22:56
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Siren.Kalilla said: »
I don't agree with that at all. They are putting work into getting what they want just as you are,

Remember I support the HNM system here. Dedication is all fine and good, but we don't let students into Harvard despite bad grades just because they study a lot.

Gear should be tierd according to difficulty and accessibility. Top line gear should be proportionately rare to its status. Coruscantis should go to the best THFs and DNCs, not anyone who sits and grinds enough Qilins.

Execpt getting gear from HNMs had nothing to do with skill. It had to do with how much time people were willing to spend in game. IE. Spending up to 3 hours camping an HNM, going to all events an LS has to offer in order to have the points to get the item you want from said HNM.

If this was really the case, you would have seen crap players with Black Belts and E bodies and Dalmys back at 75. But you did.
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-12 04:25:45
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If you could claim efficiently over players that botted w/o a bot then I'd say you were skilled... if any of those ever existed :p
 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2012-01-12 04:36:51
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i really dont know how anyone can live in the fantasy land that only the best players got HNM gear.
 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2012-01-12 04:38:14
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Sylph.Kimble said: »
best players
Never happened.
Never will >:
 Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-12 04:46:34
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So now the topic is jealousy?
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 04:52:15
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Sylph.Kimble said: »
Execpt getting gear from HNMs had nothing to do with skill. It had to do with how much time people were willing to spend in game. IE. Spending up to 3 hours camping an HNM, going to all events an LS has to offer in order to have the points to get the item you want from said HNM.

If this was really the case, you would have seen crap players with Black Belts and E bodies and Dalmys back at 75. But you did.

For the 100th time.

Relatively, far less HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE players got good gear pre-Abyssea than post-Abyssea.

I proved this by arguing

1) Events were harder at 75 so there was a higher skill barrier. Comparatively Abyssea can all be lowmanned by retards or solo brew'd. Voidwatch can be done skating between shout groups even if you personally suck ***.

2) Because the nature of all end game going through LS's meant that you had to be good enough to be accepted into an LS.

I'm not trying to prove no gimp ever got good gear from HNMs. I'm trying to prove LESS idiots did. That is enough to prove that the HNM system was better
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 05:03:37
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
Sylph.Gredival said: »
Siren.Kalilla said: »
I don't agree with that at all. They are putting work into getting what they want just as you are,

Remember I support the HNM system here. Dedication is all fine and good, but we don't let students into Harvard despite bad grades just because they study a lot.

Gear should be tierd according to difficulty and accessibility. Top line gear should be proportionately rare to its status. Coruscantis should go to the best THFs and DNCs, not anyone who sits and grinds enough Qilins.
Even if you obtaining that rare piece of gear for 1 more attack and 2 str would help you less than if it went to someone else that would gain more from that piece of equipment?

But this isn't about me using a million dollars to get a gold toilet at the expense of someone else's food here.

Gear is what you make of it. If you believe your playing experience is integrally linked to whether or not you get gear, then I think the impetus is on you to attain it. But not everyone deserves top level rewards just in virtue of playing.

FFXI is like any other game. Go play Street Fighter or StarCraft at your own pace and your own way; the game is there for you to enjoy. But if you don't excel, then you don't get ranked into the highest leagues. If you aren't good, then you can't beat AV or PW or whatnot and get whatever item you want.

If you're not good enough... too bad. But remember that sucks only insofar as you care about the gear.

If you care about gear so much you can't enjoy the game without having it, aren't you just the same as someone who doesn't enjoy the game because others get gear?

Quote:
It seems so selfish to me to feel any other way, I'm glad others get gear as it means the system is working.

This gives everyone the same chance of getting it regardless of what linkshell they are in, and that is what the game was missing almost since the beginning.

If you are bad, you shouldn't get anything. I don't see anything wrong with that statement.

I think players deserve gear in virtue of accomplishing something. You got the Biggoron Sword for finishing the quest, the Knights the Round Materia for raising a Gold Chocobo, Omnislash for beating the battle arena... MMOs are no different. You get gear for beating bad guys. The way this plays out in the vast majority of games is that there are varied tiers of gear with quality proportional to the difficulty of the mob. Since Abyssea, FFXI has been ***because there is no variety of content. Just one form of content with so many crutches that the entire player base succeeds.

The complete lack of a skill barrier combined with a personal loot system makes drops completely arbitrary.

That, imo, is the worst possible design imaginable.

This game is a time sink and a skinner box. Everyone here admits it. I'd just rather the end result of the skinner box mean something besides a lottery.
 Bahamut.Fistandantilus
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By Bahamut.Fistandantilus 2012-01-12 05:13:17
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Siren.Kalilla said: »
If you could claim efficiently over players that botted w/o a bot then I'd say you were skilled... if any of those ever existed :p

I played with a lot of people on console (myself included) who claimed regularly. This was especially true on anything outside of DA.

Sylph.Kimble said: »
i really dont know how anyone can live in the fantasy land that only the best players got HNM gear.

So are you saying there were more gimps running around at 75 with HNM gear on than there are now with bodies they got from VW?
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 Asura.Arkanethered
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2012-01-12 05:15:55
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Whm joined a Kaggen group with me tonight... Didn't know what the mob dropped, didn't know where the rift was... Was mediocre at best healing.

Got body within the first set of pops....


True story.
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 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 05:16:47
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Bahamut.Fistandantilus said: »
Siren.Kalilla said: »
If you could claim efficiently over players that botted w/o a bot then I'd say you were skilled... if any of those ever existed :p

I played with a lot of people on console (myself included) who claimed regularly. This was especially true on anything outside of DA.

As I said earlier, HNM was the best system. Skill barrier by difficulty of the mob, effort/dedication barrier by competition for claim.

Requires both effort and skill. If you are skilled enough AND you work for it, you succeed.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-12 05:24:30
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Effort: Making VWNM groups
Skill: Making them not suck

The people willing to make groups are the ones that get the most items they want in the long run.
 Bahamut.Fistandantilus
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By Bahamut.Fistandantilus 2012-01-12 05:25:41
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Asura.Arkanethered said: »
Whm joined a Kaggen group with me tonight... Didn't know what the mob dropped, didn't know where the rift was... Was mediocre at best healing.

Got body within the first set of pops....


True story.

Been following this thread while doing a set of 12 akavans which netted me oodles of ahriman lens/wing/tears, and various other 1-2k crafting mats. While a guy who was excessively late everytime we went back to town...who took at minimum 3-4 mins to clear the chest EVERY fight... who we even had to move to a different rift for initially because he didn't have a god damned elevator key thingie to get into the basement area ended up with a body in like the 5th round.

Sorry that is not my idea of "working as intended"
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 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 05:27:36
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Effort: Making VWNM groups
Skill: Making them not suck

The people willing to make groups are the ones that get the most items they want in the long run.

No, the pink DNC will be the one to get it.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-12 05:43:30
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First off, you'd be an idiot to invite a pink DNC. Secondly, the pink DNC is going to taste the voidwatch droprates and gtfo. In the long run, he will end up with fewer drops than a spammer.

In the past, "leaders" exploited any random schmos they could get to help them in order to get gear. Now "leaders" are forced to get random schmos gear in order to get themselves gear. The tides have turned, but the more active players will still receive more rewards in the long run.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 05:47:41
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »

In the past, "leaders" exploited any random schmos they could get to help them in order to get gear. Now "leaders" are forced to get random schmos gear in order to get themselves gear.

I'll answer with the words of someone else earlier in the topic.

Odin.Sawtelle said: »
If you were in a shell that couldn't reliably claim nidhogg to have the list of gear moving or had a ls leader that didn't follow a logical loot distribution system, the issue was with the ls, not the actual HNM system. The fact is there existed at least one effective model used by many good shells that lead to a direct correlation between effort and reward. No such system can be made for voidwatch.
 Bahamut.Fistandantilus
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By Bahamut.Fistandantilus 2012-01-12 05:50:08
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This guy I mentioned was actually not geared badly. The difference though between VW, and if this was 3 years ago is:

Today if you don't already know the guy is a dipshit, and his gear is not code red alert he'll get a spot in a pick up group.

3 years ago he would have to have joined an event/HNMls, and proven himself/shown dedication b4 he would get his hands on an elite piece of gear.

Now as easy mode as abyssea was I was O.K. with casual players getting a chance to get good gear for the effort/reward ratio. I didn't care for watching a solid system of doing things that I enjoyed get wiped out by Abyssea. Still at least it required some sort of effort, and team work.

This VW *** of moron's showing up to pick up groups, and being completely lost then walking away with top of the line gear is repulsive. That isn't an elitest viewpoint. It is just common sense.
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 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-01-12 06:01:48
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Effort: Making VWNM groups
Skill: Making them not suck

The people willing to make groups are the ones that get the most items they want in the long run.

You would think that, but no.
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 Lakshmi.Aequis
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By Lakshmi.Aequis 2012-01-12 06:13:45
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From the perspective of trying to start Voidwatch after everyone's already done the starter tiers and is now onto Zilart / Jeuno, the system is incredibly hard to get into. The diminishing pool of people willing to do it just dries up when they have an item they want. There's no incentive at all to re-do it.

I'd like to have a go at Voidwatch, as would my partner, but I don't think we have much chance now. We've considered shouting, but seeing as though we haven't seen a low tier shout in the three weeks we've been monitoring Port Jeuno traffic, the indications aren't good.

It just doesn't fill me with confidence, especially reading all of these posts on the drop rate too.
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 Bahamut.Fistandantilus
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By Bahamut.Fistandantilus 2012-01-12 06:17:01
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That is true in so much that if you continue to make parties chances are that you will get you're drop on the 50th, 100th, or if you get really unlucky the 200th run. Seeing as the challenge you need to surmount is not one of skill or commitment, but more a test of you're patience vs the random # generator.

For me personally that does not inspire me in the least. It is the same feeling I get when someone has the brilliant idea that anyone asking for a challenge anymore in today's XI should rush off to abyssea, and fight stuff with no cruor buffs/atmas!!!one one one

I have no wish to knowingly gimp myself to do content that any joe schmoe can kill with those crutches. For what? Certainly not for better drops. By the same token I am not going to do the set ups for over 9000 VW pugs to watch the RNG pass drops out on a whim to no one in particular.

I'll do what I can to enjoy what is left of the game, and keep my fingers crossed that whenever they get around to this dungeon crawl business it isn't as moronically random as it's predecessor was.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-12 06:22:31
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »

In the past, "leaders" exploited any random schmos they could get to help them in order to get gear. Now "leaders" are forced to get random schmos gear in order to get themselves gear.

I'll answer with the words of someone else earlier in the topic.

Odin.Sawtelle said: »
If you were in a shell that couldn't reliably claim nidhogg to have the list of gear moving or had a ls leader that didn't follow a logical loot distribution system, the issue was with the ls, not the actual HNM system. The fact is there existed at least one effective model used by many good shells that lead to a direct correlation between effort and reward. No such system can be made for voidwatch.

Actually, even if you were in the fairest shell in all the land, what I said is still true. There are only so many D.rings, E.bodies, etc. that drop every year, your shell is almost guaranteed to get fewer than that, and then you have to divide them among your players.

A Ridill drops. Who is more deserving?
* Player A, who has shown up for every NA primetime window in the last year. He attends whenever he can, but he works 8-6 and sometimes has to go in on weekends. Maybe he has kids, too, so there are random kid-time commitments.
* Player B, a single male who lost his job two months ago and joined your shell. He sleeps only when the windows are closed.

If HNM shells die every 2 years on average and there is a constant influx of Player Bs the whole time, do you think Player A will ever get a Ridill? How is he not being exploited?

If Player A joins a Voidwatch group 2-3 times a week for a year, he will receive whatever gifts the random number generator decides to bestow upon him.

With good bots HNMs were certainly less of a pyramid scheme than, say, relic-funding Dynamis shells, but they weren't perfect specifically because the 21-24 system led to the creation of 24 hour shells.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 06:31:37
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Actually, even if you were in the fairest shell in all the land, what I said is still true. There are only so many D.rings, E.bodies, etc. that drop every year, your shell is almost guaranteed to get fewer than that, and then you have to divide them among your players.

A Ridill drops. Who is more deserving?
* Player A, who has shown up for every NA primetime window in the last year. He attends whenever he can, but he works 8-6 and sometimes has to go in on weekends. Maybe he has kids, too, so there are random kid-time commitments.
* Player B, a single male who lost his job two months ago and joined your shell. He sleeps only when the windows are closed.

If HNM shells die every 2 years on average and there is a constant influx of Player Bs the whole time, do you think Player A will ever get a Ridill? How is he not being exploited?

He is not being exploited unless he's being denied something he deserves.

Desert in this context is relative. That is the nature of competition. Last year it wasn't that the Heat didn't deserve a championship, it's the the Mavericks deserved it more.

Should there be enough Player Bs who put in the time to earn Ridills before him, that is the way the cookie crumbles. If they put in all those hours how can you deny him what he has earned? Because Player A has a good excuse NOT to be online?

Moreover, with the exception of D. Ring, no drop was rare enough in HNMs such that Player A would find it impossible to get after attending every NA primetime window in a year with a good linkshell.

And as far as D. Ring goes? If you want it, make sacrifices for it. We're talking about the rarest item in the game, of course it's going to be rare. Sure you might have to miss the windows you absolutely cannot camp, but take a nap and get up early to camp.

I never thought I'd get mine, but I did (while both working a job and attending grad school)
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-12 06:37:18
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Okay, so you admit that Player A is unlikely to ever get the reward he desires due to his inability to equally partake in the event despite contributing equally to the event whenever he is able. HNM was a system that was massively exclusive to people with RL obligations. It was a waste of their time to even walk to Dragon's Aery.

Guess what? Voidwatch eliminates that problem. Now Player A and Player B have equal chances of getting the drop whenever they do Voidwatch together. Player B goes more often, so he is more likely to get drops. Player A goes less often, so they will get fewer drops. Equality accomplished.

Not only that, but now Player B makes a bunch of alliances filled with Player As. If there are 6 Player Bs and 12 Player As per alliance, Player As will get more drops than Player Bs on average. Player Bs are gearing less dedicated players by virtue of them being more common.
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By Odin.Eikechi 2012-01-12 06:41:53
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Sylph.Gredival said: »

Should there be enough Player Bs who put in the time to earn Ridills before him, that is the way the cookie crumbles. If they put in all those hours how can you deny him what he has earned? Because Player A has a good excuse NOT to be online?

And as far as D. Ring goes? If you want it, make sacrifices for it. We're talking about the rarest item in the game, of course it's going to be rare. Sure you might have to miss the windows you absolutely cannot camp, but take a nap and get up early to camp.

I never thought I'd get mine, but I did (while both working a job and attending grad school)

That's wonderful and cg to you for getting one, but I 100% disagree here. If player A has rl commitments, he shouldn't have to sacrifice them to get an item in-game. I would hope the shell would give stuff to player A because he/she has still made every attempt to get one when he/she is on, by going to the camps for that HNM. Just because player B has no life other than being entertained by XI, that doesn't exclude player A from having one. RL commitments > game imho. My 2 cents on the whole whack HNM system of old. Sorry if it has offended or disturbed anybody. Peace and have a good one (^_^)v
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 06:44:31
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Okay, so you admit that Player A is unlikely to ever get the reward he desires due to his inability to equally partake in the event despite contributing equally to the event whenever he is able. HNM was a system that was massively exclusive to people with RL obligations. It was a waste of their time to even walk to Dragon's Aery.

No I didn't. That was the part where I said

Quote:
"Moreover, with the exception of D. Ring, no drop was rare enough in HNMs such that Player A would find it impossible to get after attending every NA primetime window in a year with a good linkshell."

Moreover I earlier said in this thread

Quote:
Does the game reward those who play more? Yes. Is this arbitrary? Certainly. But isn't everything arbitrary? Talent itself is arbitrary too. It's not my or your fault we weren't born with Michael Jordan's talents in Basketball and didn't become multi-millionaires. The issue in life is determining which arbitrary factors we are going to reward.

The best we can do is simply to reward those who do play for the gear vs. those who have the best excuse for not playing. It's not completely fair, but it is more fair than the opposite.
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By Bahamut.Fistandantilus 2012-01-12 06:44:54
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What I would love to see is an expansive open zone like sky or sea sized. No gimicky time constraint nonsense/lights blah blah blah...

In the zone you have various t1 mobs that would be a challenge to a level 99 player. Not some xp mob garbage. Those would be the weakest link. Have them be aggressive, and roam over most of the map to deter afk'ing in the zone. Then have them drop trigs to pop t2's, and t3's that are a legitimate challenge.

Have a series of 3-4 randomly spawned HNM's in the zone that don't have stupidly long timers, and focus more on special pop conditions. Have them spawn anywhere in the zone when they do pop. Could reuse the doomvoid thingy or something similar to give it even more depth, and replayability.

Have the T2's and t3's drop some items, but more importantly a certain amount of ampoule type credit system.

Have the HNM drop some rare gear, and a larger amount of the credits per kill. All gear rare/ex.

Can have dominion ops on the T1's. Ampoule/Assualt credits for the t2/t3/HNM. You have your rare gear in there. Effort to reward ratio, and most importantly activities for all sorts of players. Noobs, and pros. Casuals, and cellar dwellars. Everyone is happy.

PS: For the love of Altana no cruor buff type crap, atmas, or anything remotely resembling a temp item. Just you. Your macros, and your gear swaps (we hope).

PPS: Not enough dev resources blah blah.. shut up. Charge 15-20 bucks for the expansion zone. Throw in a new town to chill at there, and I will happily pay $25.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-12 06:49:06
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Odin.Eikechi said: »
That's wonderful and cg to you for getting one, but I 100% disagree here. If player A has rl commitments, he shouldn't have to sacrifice them to get an item in-game.

No one is saying he should sacrifice his job or his family. But when Player B puts in those hours, he earns his D. Ring. Player A does not put in those hours. End of story.

Why should A get one? Does he deserve one simply in light of being a player?

If you want something go out and get it. If you can't, whether because you are too unskilled or can't commit to doing the tasks necessary, then accept it and get over it.

That's life. I wish I was born a millionaire. I know for a fact that I am smarter than at LEAST one person born into the lap of wealth and luxury. But I wasn't. Does that mean I should get to sit on my ***, not work, not go to school?

This game isn't some sort of grand equalizer. You don't get rewards here to compensate for your obligations IRL. It's a parallel; you get out what you put in, and sometimes others are born with more to put in.

Quote:
I would hope the shell would give stuff to player A because he/she has still made every attempt to get one when he/she is on, by going to the camps for that HNM. Just because player B has no life other than being entertained by XI, that doesn't exclude player A from having one. RL commitments > game imho. My 2 cents on the whole whack HNM system of old. Sorry if it has offended or disturbed anybody. Peace and have a good one (^_^)v

Sure he will get stuff, proportional to the work he puts in.

But why should he get priority for his reasons for not putting in work? Why should I value his RL circumstances over the blood, sweat, and tears of the no-lifer?
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-12 06:54:29
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Well, I guess I'll just have to call *** on you there. Unless your LS had a substantial botting edge on the competition, demand for those items outpaced supply even within HNM shells. You could gun for one "big" item (Ridill, E.body, or N.legs) over a long period of time if you were a persistent Player A, but Player Bs were always joining or leveling new jobs. I know some Player As that took literally months to get a damned N.head.

Point is that instead of rewarding the casuals with nothing, now they get out what they put in. Most of the time, they get a bunch of logs like everyone else.
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