Valefor.Prothescar said: »
One week to get a stupid powerful set of armor, one week to get a stupid powerful weapon, one week to mop up and get miscellaneous drops such as Epona's Ring and Zelus Tiara. Abyssea.
[Dev] Voidwatch: Response To Feedback
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[Dev] Voidwatch: Response to Feedback
Took me one month, two months, and a lot longer than that to "mop up" for all my jobs. And sorry to disappoint, but I'm also not below average. Sylph.Gredival said: » You should invest some time responding to that wall of text I dumped on you previously. But I'll humor you and prove you wrong once again. Your reply was totally missing my point, but since you want reply, I'll reply regardless. 1.I don't agree with "being useful enough in LS = good player"(if that's what you mean, I assume it is.) For example, A player is the best PUP player on this server, has all the best gears, usu, mythic w/e. B player is just an AH BRD in NQ earth staff. If one LS is full of relic DD/PLDs and bunch of healers, but no BRD, and desperately trying to recruit a BRD, then an AH BRD will be able to make it into LS but not the pimp PUP. And in fact, an AH BRD will provide more value to the LS than pimp career PUP. But does that make the AH BRD better player than PUP? No. In order to be "useful enough in LS", you gonna play jobs you don't like sometimes, that may be jobs you have no talent to play well. I don't think ppl who forced to play jobs they're not good at deserves gear more than ppl who play job they have talent with and play to it's fullest potential. I don't think that AH BRD(who leveled BRD just so that he can get into LS) deserves gear more than career PUP, just like how you think pink DNC doesn't deserve Qilin dagger. 2. When I mentioned lowman, I mean do dyna xarc with 6 ppl at 75, do Yilbegan with 7 ppl, or do limbus/boss with 4 ppl and so on, has nothing to do with Abyssea. 3. I generally agree with what you said about tanking/MP management and so on, but it has something to do with how game mechanics no longer works at this lv, has nothing to do with HNM system. 4. Maybe he just doesn't care about DNC(not everyone care about all jobs they have just saying, some play just for fun), or maybe his DNC just ding 95 10 mins ago and haven't start grinding gear yet. It's not even a big deal. He's doing Campaign, which is not a group event, and won't affect others if he's in pink, so what's the big deal? If he show up in pink DNC in Qilin maybe it's a big deal because it's affecting everyone and pt efficency, but campaign, who cares. Sylph.Kimble said: » abyssea also wasnt end game content. Which is why I had no problem with it being the way it was. I like the VW system, but not having an actual goal you can plan for is way to messed up. Once people get it out of their head that abyssea was not end game content, the sooner they will get over "how easy gear was to get" Infact, they really did them self in more by making abyssea gear as good as it was, and then making 95-99 gear barely better then it. That includes voidwatch. There won't be end game content for many years, and the reason is because when the level cap got raised the separation of players were suddenly put back together making everyone the same. There is no difference between Abyssea and Voidwatch except abyssea gave handouts and voidwatch balanced that out. Bahamut.Serj said: » Sylph.Kimble said: » Most content could be done with 6 people. Guess what? I still see people *** up and wipe in abyssea. Go check out BG random fail thread and see how many people still wipe and lose NMs. And yea, this. Only challenging content at 75 cap was AV/PW. PW we made zombie methods to beat and AV was never even remotely close to a decent reliable win. (both of course being before Alexander was released) One might point out at this time that a lot of older content was doable by lowman groups before Abyssea came around and that this is evidence that Abyssea is no less challenging. However when Kings/Wyrms/Kirin/Limbus/Dynamis were first released there was no way any of that content was doable with groups under 8 people respective to their time. Fafnir was hard back in the day because we tanked it with completely different gear (Adaman Paladins with Earth Staves). There was a reason we slept Fafnir: it was intense to heal that fight with Paladins eating so much damage and the wings constantly *** up your alliance. Low-manning became possible because of innovations in FFXI tactics (tanking with PLD/NIN and NIN/DRK and eventually RDM/NIN), changes in game mechanics (2H forumlas, Hasso), and increases in player capabilities (merits and gear). Moreover while top shells could do Fafhogg, KB, Aspid, Tiamat, Ixion, and Lambton with 6-10, a group of average players could probably not accomplish this. This goes back to my first point about norms. Everyone lowmans in Abyssea, not everyone could lowman older content. As newer World Spawns were released, they were scaled up respective to the playerbase. It would be unreasonable to gauge the difficulty of 75 content in general based on the oldest 75 content released prior to CoP. Regardless though, I would readily assert even basic HNM content was harder than the vast majority of Abyssea content. Cerberus.Tikal said: » Valefor.Prothescar said: » One week to get a stupid powerful set of armor, one week to get a stupid powerful weapon, one week to mop up and get miscellaneous drops such as Epona's Ring and Zelus Tiara. Abyssea. If it took you two months to make an empyrean, then I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you're rather below average. Sylph.Kimble said: » abyssea also wasnt end game content. Which is why I had no problem with it being the way it was. I like the VW system, but not having an actual goal you can plan for is way to messed up. Once people get in their head that abyssea was not end game content, the sooner they will get over "how easy gear was to get" Infact, they really did them self in more by making abyssea gear as good as it was, and then making 95-99 gear barely better then it. It was the only form of content for more than a year, and gave the best gear available in the game. How much more "end game" can you get? Siren.Kalilla said: » Lakshmi.Zaps said: » random observation. Events that the community deemed to be "successful" never had the same heated debates surrounding them that voidwatch has now. unless its just really late and i am forgetting something obvious Voidwatch is the complete opposite, and players wanting a handout are furious. I agree, i actually dont have a problem with the droperate, but as it stands, i have no reason to do this events as a linkshell. When the only HQ drop a shell has seen has gone to a mule that cant use it after weeks of climbing the tiers people tend to loose hope. If that HQ drop had been able to be passed to someone who can use it, then maybe (in my shells eyes) abyssea wouldnt be a useless event. maybe i'm just the only person that has a shell that treats everyone like a group of really good friends instead of using each other like tools.
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Siren.Kalilla said: » Sylph.Kimble said: » abyssea also wasnt end game content. Which is why I had no problem with it being the way it was. I like the VW system, but not having an actual goal you can plan for is way to messed up. Once people get it out of their head that abyssea was not end game content, the sooner they will get over "how easy gear was to get" Infact, they really did them self in more by making abyssea gear as good as it was, and then making 95-99 gear barely better then it. That includes voidwatch. There won't be end game content for many years, and the reason is because when the level cap got raised the separation of players were suddenly put back together making everyone the same. There is no difference between Abyssea and Voidwatch except abyssea gave handouts and voidwatch balanced that out. Lol, yeah, cause as soon as I walked into abyssea, i was handed everything I want. I totally didnt do any work for it. The loot system in VW is HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE and is way more messed up then the abyssea system. If anything, they should have made more Salvage type content. Very good gear, that you can do with a small number of people, that if you work at it, everyone gets what they want and is still enjoyable to do while working on it. Sylph.Gredival said: » Sylph.Kimble said: » abyssea also wasnt end game content. Which is why I had no problem with it being the way it was. I like the VW system, but not having an actual goal you can plan for is way to messed up. Once people get in their head that abyssea was not end game content, the sooner they will get over "how easy gear was to get" Infact, they really did them self in more by making abyssea gear as good as it was, and then making 95-99 gear barely better then it. It was the only form of content for more than a year, and gave the best gear available in the game. How much more "end game" can you get? It wasn't "end game" because we werent at 99 yet which means we weren't "at the end of the game" Just because players create their own way to take down the AV/PW monsters doesn't mean that is how it is meant to be done.
Even though we don't know how the hell you're even suppose to kill AV still. SE set the bar too high for an appropriate amount of players to succeed. Only when you knew exactly what to do could you do it like how we fight tiamat or vrtra or fafnir. Once you know how to do something the difficulty goes way down. I personally think AV and PW were failures because of where SE set the bar, and when PW came out it was a mess including that 18 hour fight or w/e it was that got in the news. Players just didn't know how to do the fights properly, and created strategies that were nothing more than exploits to get the job done. Siren.Kalilla said: » Just because players create their own way to take down the AV/PW monsters doesn't mean that is how it is meant to be done. Even though we don't know how the hell you're even suppose to kill AV still. SE set the bar too high for an appropriate amount of players to succeed. Only when you knew exactly what to do could you do it like how we fight tiamat or vrtra or fafnir. Once you know how to do something the difficulty goes way down. I personally think AV and PW were failures because of where SE set the bar, and when PW came out it was a mess including that 18 hour fight or w/e it was that got in the news. Players just didn't know how to do the fights properly, and created strategies that were nothing more than exploits to get the job done. SE didn't really help that by giving you no clue or idea on how the "proper" way to fight those mobs were. Hell, they STILL havent gave any clue on the "proper" way to beat AV. Sylph.Kimble said: » Lol, yeah, cause as soon as I walked into abyssea, i was handed everything I want. I totally didnt do any work for it. The loot system in VW is HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE and is way more messed up then the abyssea system. If anything, they should have made more Salvage type content. Very good gear, that you can do with a small number of people, that if you work at it, everyone gets what they want and is still enjoyable to do while working on it. I'm against people putting drops in the treasure pool. I'm for the system checking to see if you have that item already, and if you do then it re-randomizes and goes to someone else that doesn't have it. Sure they do, it just isn't quite as convenient as PD zerging the ***down in under a minute.
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Siren.Kalilla said: » Lakshmi.Zaps said: » random observation. Events that the community deemed to be "successful" never had the same heated debates surrounding them that voidwatch has now. unless its just really late and i am forgetting something obvious Voidwatch is the complete opposite, and players wanting a handout are furious. I'm going to have to disagree somewhat. It's not like Abyssea was -always- stupid easy. I also don't think that SE realized the profound effect that letting players use 2-3 atmas would have on monsters there. I remember SE saying that Abyssea had its failing and that they made it incredibly hard to balance, but I couldn't give you the source for that. Remember trying to kill Glavoid at 80? Do you guys remember how angry people were when they found out that you needed 50 glavoid shells to get an 80 empyrean? "What, you need to kill 25-50 of these NMs, which take a full alliance for only one person!?" Of course there was progression, and it just went too far. But you also have to remember that content in Abysseas were designed to be challenging for characters of the max level cap when the Abyssea was released. So, 80 for Visions, 85 for Scars, 90 for Heroes. We're 99 now, of course it's going to be easy and feel like a hand out.
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Sylph.Kimble said: » Siren.Kalilla said: » Just because players create their own way to take down the AV/PW monsters doesn't mean that is how it is meant to be done. Even though we don't know how the hell you're even suppose to kill AV still. SE set the bar too high for an appropriate amount of players to succeed. Only when you knew exactly what to do could you do it like how we fight tiamat or vrtra or fafnir. Once you know how to do something the difficulty goes way down. I personally think AV and PW were failures because of where SE set the bar, and when PW came out it was a mess including that 18 hour fight or w/e it was that got in the news. Players just didn't know how to do the fights properly, and created strategies that were nothing more than exploits to get the job done. SE didn't really help that by giving you no clue or idea on how the "proper" way to fight those mobs were. Hell, they STILL havent gave any clue on the "proper" way to beat AV. If not then then eventually, no one really needs anything from AV anymore. Ragnarok.Afania said: » 1.I don't agree with "being useful enough in LS = good player"(if that's what you mean, I assume it is.) For example, A player is the best PUP player on this server, has all the best gears, usu, mythic w/e. B player is just an AH BRD in NQ earth staff. If one LS is full of relic DD/PLDs and bunch of healers, but no BRD, and desperately trying to recruit a BRD, then an AH BRD will be able to make it into LS but not the pimp PUP. And in fact, an AH BRD will provide more value to the LS than pimp career PUP. But does that make the AH BRD better player than PUP? No. 1. lolPUP 2. If you are truly a decent player worth your salt, it is entirely reasonable to presume some end game LS out there will take you. Especially if you are a good player, most LS will take quality into account and specifically recruit you even if open recruitment is closed. 3. Make an LS. God forbid you have to commit to a group past the duration of a shout and fight? Quote: In order to be "useful enough in LS", you gonna play jobs you don't like sometimes, that may be jobs you have no talent to play well. I don't think ppl who forced to play jobs they're not good at deserves gear more than ppl who play job they have talent with and play to it's fullest potential. I don't think that AH BRD(who leveled BRD just so that he can get into LS) deserves gear more than career PUP, just like how you think pink DNC doesn't deserve Qilin dagger. They deserve gear for their adaptability and willingness to put their desire to stab to the side so their LS can succeed. I presume they have to have sufficient skill in being able to play multiple jobs to an HNMLS-caliber. Generally if you are worthless on a job, an HNMLS doesn't have you play on it. Should you turn out to be worthless to the LS in virtue of that, you tend to get kicked. Quote: When I mentioned lowman, I mean do dyna xarc with 6 ppl at 75, do Yilbegan with 7 ppl, or do limbus/boss with 4 ppl and so on, has nothing to do with Abyssea. And I've already gone to a great extent to point out that such feats are not demonstrations of skill. But since you admit that it has nothing to do with Abyssea, it only proves my point that post-75 content had no skill barrier. Quote: I generally agree with what you said about tanking/MP management and so on, but it has something to do with how game mechanics no longer works at this lv, has nothing to do with HNM system. It has everything to do with changes they made to the game as they progressed from 75, i.e. the desire to make content more accessible both in skill entry and fight entry. Quote: Maybe he just doesn't care about DNC(not everyone care about all jobs they have just saying, some play just for fun), or maybe his DNC just ding 95 10 mins ago and haven't start grinding gear yet. It's not even a big deal. He's doing Campaign, which is not a group event, and won't affect others if he's in pink, so what's the big deal? If he show up in pink DNC in Qilin maybe it's a big deal because it's affecting everyone and pt efficency, but campaign, who cares. My whole point is that the system is HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE because someone like that shouldn't get a Coruscanti. The better system would be the dagger being in pool so it could be distributed to the most deserving of the group who could actually use the item (which in this scenario would be an LS deciding who to reward with the dagger) Valefor.Prothescar said: » Sure they do, it just isn't quite as convenient as PD zerging the ***down in under a minute.
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Why? Zerging is still a strat.
Lock Benediction.
Have Aegis pld hold AV and cap hate while other people come in to poke it to death. Some people in range of meteor? Looks like they're all dead! Hopefully don't run out of time. Etc. Granted, this wouldn't have worked at 75 cap because they didn't make Aegis break MDT cap. So, that said, how would you have beaten him at 75 cap? Once you get him to 40% his meteors would just one shot your alliance. I hate zerging personally, but that's obviously just my opinion and know the majority of players love it.
Nuking according to day to cut his regen and timing 2hrs to lock his 2hrs have been known methods of dealing with two of AV's most troublesome aspects for a while. Gear advancements have made it easier to deal with the rest, though I'm still unsure how they expected us to deal with bracelets and chainspell Meteor at 75.
Valefor.Prothescar said: » Nuking according to day to cut his regen and timing 2hrs to lock his 2hrs have been known methods of dealing with two of AV's most troublesome aspects for a while. Gear advancements have made it easier to deal with the rest, though I'm still unsure how they expected us to deal with bracelets and chainspell Meteor at 75. The one part that SE doesn't show you in the video! Probably pet burn it XD Valefor.Prothescar said: » Nuking according to day to cut his regen and timing 2hrs to lock his 2hrs have been known methods of dealing with two of AV's most troublesome aspects for a while. Gear advancements have made it easier to deal with the rest, though I'm still unsure how they expected us to deal with bracelets and chainspell Meteor at 75. @.@ Sylph.Kimble said: » Why? Zerging is still a strat. It's a strat that removes skill barriers by removing many elements of play. Sylph.Gredival said: » Sylph.Kimble said: » Why? Zerging is still a strat. It's a strat that removes skill barriers by removing many elements of play. It just promotes an unbalanced party setup and strategy in favor of overpowering the monsters stats and abilities. Really dedicated melee that zerg perfected their techniques and equipment for just doing that. I just think it's unbalanced and like the more traditional party setup myself.
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Sylph.Gredival said: » Sylph.Kimble said: » Why? Zerging is still a strat. It's a strat that removes skill barriers by removing many elements of play. Ok. Random rant. HNMs didn't have a skill barrier in the way you use that. It had a massive time/ls constraint that made it inaccessible to most players. You can't say HNMs were great because of a skill barrier. The same people who got face-rolled by HNMs are the same people who die in abyssea and can't complete VW. Bahamut.Serj said: » Ok. Random rant. HNMs didn't have a skill barrier in the way you use that. It had a massive time/ls constraint that made it inaccessible to most players. You can't say HNMs were great because of a skill barrier. The same people who got face-rolled by HNMs are the same people who die in abyssea and can't complete VW. Asura.Ludoggy said: » Bahamut.Serj said: » Ok. Random rant. HNMs didn't have a skill barrier in the way you use that. It had a massive time/ls constraint that made it inaccessible to most players. You can't say HNMs were great because of a skill barrier. The same people who got face-rolled by HNMs are the same people who die in abyssea and can't complete VW. Pretty much. Just like if you are a bad player, you will problem suck at your job no matter how you got it to 75 (99). Siren.Kalilla said: » Sylph.Gredival said: » Sylph.Kimble said: » Why? Zerging is still a strat. It's a strat that removes skill barriers by removing many elements of play. It just promotes an unbalanced party setup and strategy in favor of overpowering the monsters stats and abilities. Really dedicated melee that zerg perfected their techniques and equipment for just doing that. I just think it's unbalanced and like the more traditional party setup myself. It's an innately less complicated strategy that requires much less skill. It's the exact reason why Voidwatch is HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE, only temp items make every melee good in Zerg not just well geared melees |
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