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[Dev] Voidwatch: Response to Feedback
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Server: Siren
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-11 18:39:23
Just my two cents:
I wouldn't mind if they decreased the drop rates on Voidwatch if they allowed us some way to get the drops to people who actually needed them. Similarly, getting the same drop repeatedly, especially when it's rare/ex and you can't get it again, is mind-numbingly stupid. I had 3 pairs of Fajin boots distribute to me at Qilin today.
Other than loot distribution, I do think it's good transition content until (if) something major is released. The next major content is ToAU.
Also I don't think rates would have to decrease at all if they just checked if you had the items already and if so it would be sent to someone else.
 Sylph.Zohnax
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By Sylph.Zohnax 2012-01-11 18:40:16
Quetzalcoatl.Zagam said: »Valefor.Prothescar said: »Quetzalcoatl.Zagam said: » People are quitting/have quit over Voidwatch and the new direction of ffxi. That is a fact. And people quit/have quit over abyssea,dynamis,hnm,expansions every other thing thats been done your point? This. I still fail to see how Voidwatch is so much more of a doomsday device than anything else that's ever been added to FFXI. People are certainly blowing it out of proportion. No one's forcing you to do Voidwatch, just do more of the Abyssea you love so much until they add something that meets your level of expectations. Seems like an idiotic statement. If a majority of the playerbase finds the system of Voidwatch shi*t, then it's probably sh*t. And so is saying vw is ***when a shout group fills up in under 5 min This is FFXI, people beat themselves in the face with grinds for god knows what reason, but that doesn't mean people don't hate the way it's setup.
 Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 18:41:18
If Abyssea increased population, I'm don't know why it was accompanied by two huge server merges. Anyway, I'd love the real numbers because I'd love to prove how dead on I am: (population over time)
If there's one thing that's made a noticeable dent in FFXI's population, it's WoW and only WoW. Which, just goes to show how flakey the average MMOer is and how little I value their opinion.
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 Bismarck.Gaspee
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By Bismarck.Gaspee 2012-01-11 18:42:43
Just my two cents:
I wouldn't mind if they decreased the drop rates on Voidwatch if they allowed us some way to get the drops to people who actually needed them. Similarly, getting the same drop repeatedly, especially when it's rare/ex and you can't get it again, is mind-numbingly stupid. I had 3 pairs of Fajin boots distribute to me at Qilin today.
Other than loot distribution, I do think it's good transition content until (if) something major is released. The next major content is ToAU.
Also I don't think rates would have to decrease at all if they just checked if you had the items already and if so it would be sent to someone else.
By content, I mean new, not revamped, rehashed, reskined, added nonsense. As for the checking to see if we had the items already, that works so long as we get another roll in the loot table.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-11 18:44:24
lol, where is that even from and how could they possibly have those numbers? >.>
The census doesn't provide that information. And I highly doubt that Sea had 50-80 times more players than there is now.
Also there is clearly no spike during RMT tells where they made 100,000,000 accounts
Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 18:46:21
nono, it's an indication of when sea became availalbe, not when everyone got sea. I doubt most people have sea even now. I obviously can't account for RMT accounts, it's not even to scale ;'(
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-11 18:46:36
All I'm getting from the people that are quitting over Voidwatch:
"I am a fool who believes that I will find a better experience in another game, and Voidwatch is such a broken event that I cannot faceroll through and acquire the best items from in 3 days that I am cancelling my subscription."
Let me break this down for you people: you won't be getting a better experience from another game. It's all the same ***dressed in a different costume.
RIFT as an example, what I would call the best MMO on the market right now due to its rapid development cycle and dynamic content that is always being added to and changed:
It takes you about 2-4 weeks to get T1 -> T2 geared so that you can begin entry level raids, River of Souls and Greenscale's Blight.
It then takes you approximately 1-2 more months to become fully geared in T1 raid gear so that you meet the minimum specifications for Hammerknell. Add in an extra couple of weeks until you see the legendary weapon you're after drop from Greenscale. Both River of Souls and Greenscale's Blight can be done at maximum once every 5 days.
It will then take a dedicated raid group, assuming no sidelining due to being over cap, another couple of months to get fully T2 geared. Add a few more weeks to farm Akylios, which only a handful of Guilds can even attempt right now.
It's the same ***with a different system. Instead of killing a mob 100 times to get your Mekira Mekogai, you're killing the same slew of mobs 100 times to get yourself one of the five pieces of armor that you need to complete your qualification set to advance to the next tier of raid content. Time is a major limiting factor (lockouts, the time it takes to clear a raid instance) and the sheer amount of required tokens is another. Raid content in RIFT is also about as difficult as Voidwatch, some fights being worse (Akylios).
Saying that Voidwatch is somehow more severe than anything else out there is just ridiculous, and tells me that people are uninformed or up in arms over other things; possibly also just butthurt that they didn't get exactly what they wanted: more content that you trigger a weakness on and achieve a 60%+ drop rate instantly.
Voidwatch's loot system is not without flaws, a token system or a way to more evenly distribute loot would be a great addition and would likely cause most of the whinging to stop, however as it stands, Voidwatch is just a different way to sink in time than other events, in FFXI or outside.
Also inb4: "Why compare dat othah game to FFXI derp?"
Bring up leaving FFXI for other games, and it's relevant.
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By Odin.Almont 2012-01-11 18:49:16
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »You're saying making luck a factor is a bad design.
No, I'm not: I'm saying making luck a major factor is bad design. There is a difference and I've tried pointing that out by wording it at least two different ways now. If you insist on continuing to just repeat "everything involves luck," "everything in an MMO is random" then we're done here because there is no argument over that. If you can't see the difference between low droprates and shot-in-the-dark droprates then that's why you're all good with the Logwatch loot system.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-11 18:52:08
Not sure, but I just kinda had an idea.
You know sea, and you could trade 1, 2, or 3 pieces to the ??? to spawn a certain difficulty of monster and as you went up in difficulty the drop rates increased?
I'd love that with voidwatch... I think >.>
Sylph.Zohnax
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By Sylph.Zohnax 2012-01-11 18:52:54
Valefor.Prothescar said: »All I'm getting from the people that are quitting over Voidwatch: "I am a fool who believes that I will find a better experience in another game, and Voidwatch is such a broken event that I cannot faceroll through and acquire the best items from in 3 days that I am cancelling my subscription." Let me break this down for you people: you won't be getting a better experience from another game. It's all the same ***dressed in a different costume. RIFT as an example, what I would call the best MMO on the market right now due to its rapid development cycle and dynamic content that is always being added to and changed: It takes you about 2-4 weeks to get T1 -> T2 geared so that you can begin entry level raids, River of Souls and Greenscale's Blight. It then takes you approximately 3-4 more weeks to become fully geared in T1 raid gear so that you meet the minimum specifications for Hammerknell. Add in an extra couple of weeks until you see the legendary weapon you're after drop from Greenscale. Both River of Souls and Greenscale's Blight can be done at maximum once every 5 days. It will then take a dedicated raid group, assuming no sidelining due to being over cap, another month to month and a half to get fully T2 gears. Add a few more weeks to farm Akylios, which only a handful of Guilds can even attempt right now. It's the same ***with a different system. Instead of killing a mob 100 times to get your Mekira Mekogai, you're killing the same slew of mobs 100 times to get yourself one of the five pieces of armor that you need to complete your qualification set to advance to the next tier of raid content. Time is a major limiting factor (lockouts, the time it takes to clear a raid instance) and the sheer amount of required tokens is another. Raid content in RIFT is also about as difficult as Voidwatch, some fights being worse (Akylios). Saying that Voidwatch is somehow more severe than anything else out there is just ridiculous, and tells me that people are uninformed or up in arms over other things; possibly also just butthurt that they didn't get exactly what they wanted: more content that you trigger a weakness on and achieve a 60%+ drop rate instantly on. So going 0/100+ for one piece of armor is ok, you are saying? That makes a good game and makes it's life extend? Mkay.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-01-11 18:54:54
You certainly are arrogant to assume that every single game is going to be the same as this one. Also who says people need to go to another MMO when they quit?
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-11 18:55:58
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »You certainly are arrogant to assume that every single game is going to be the same as this one. Also who says people need to go to another MMO when they quit? Just usually what some people say when they make a thread about it >.>
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-11 18:58:41
Valefor.Prothescar said: »All I'm getting from the people that are quitting over Voidwatch: "I am a fool who believes that I will find a better experience in another game, and Voidwatch is such a broken event that I cannot faceroll through and acquire the best items from in 3 days that I am cancelling my subscription." Let me break this down for you people: you won't be getting a better experience from another game. It's all the same ***dressed in a different costume. RIFT as an example, what I would call the best MMO on the market right now due to its rapid development cycle and dynamic content that is always being added to and changed: It takes you about 2-4 weeks to get T1 -> T2 geared so that you can begin entry level raids, River of Souls and Greenscale's Blight. It then takes you approximately 3-4 more weeks to become fully geared in T1 raid gear so that you meet the minimum specifications for Hammerknell. Add in an extra couple of weeks until you see the legendary weapon you're after drop from Greenscale. Both River of Souls and Greenscale's Blight can be done at maximum once every 5 days. It will then take a dedicated raid group, assuming no sidelining due to being over cap, another month to month and a half to get fully T2 gears. Add a few more weeks to farm Akylios, which only a handful of Guilds can even attempt right now. It's the same ***with a different system. Instead of killing a mob 100 times to get your Mekira Mekogai, you're killing the same slew of mobs 100 times to get yourself one of the five pieces of armor that you need to complete your qualification set to advance to the next tier of raid content. Time is a major limiting factor (lockouts, the time it takes to clear a raid instance) and the sheer amount of required tokens is another. Raid content in RIFT is also about as difficult as Voidwatch, some fights being worse (Akylios). Saying that Voidwatch is somehow more severe than anything else out there is just ridiculous, and tells me that people are uninformed or up in arms over other things; possibly also just butthurt that they didn't get exactly what they wanted: more content that you trigger a weakness on and achieve a 60%+ drop rate instantly on. So going 0/100+ for one piece of armor is ok, you are saying? That makes a good game and makes it's life extend? Mkay.
Welcome to MMOs, if you don't enjoy grinding to get what you want, there's the door ->
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »You certainly are arrogant to assume that every single game is going to be the same as this one. Also who says people need to go to another MMO when they quit?
Oh I don't know, maybe because 90% of people I've seen crying about leaving FFXI so far have cited other games in some capacity?
Your inability to realize that all MMOs function on relatively the same model is not my issue.
Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 19:00:04
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »You're saying making luck a factor is a bad design.
No, I'm not: I'm saying making luck a major factor is bad design. There is a difference and I've tried pointing that out by wording it at least two different ways now. If you insist on continuing to just repeat "everything involves luck," "everything in an MMO is random" then we're done here because there is no argument over that. If you can't see the difference between low droprates and shot-in-the-dark droprates then that's why you're all good with the Logwatch loot system. I spent an entire summer camping Lord of Onzozo and got like 7 total clubs out of it, which involved anywhere from 2-14 hour long windows occupying me for a minute or so every 16 minutes, and 16 hours in between pops. The drop rate is probably like 5% but I think we beat the odds. Did I like it? Loved it. Possibly one of my more memorable summers, playing a video game anyway.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE SERVER cannot do the same and get the same results. Kraken clubs for all, that's not how it works. And yet SE has bent over backwards to make this a reality. They've made mobs that you can pop multiple times over lunch, and not just you but everyone and their mother, as other people have already said and you know what, we are indeed just regurgitating the same ***over and over again. The point is this game has actually become more accessible, and people want it even more accessible and I'm just like ..where do you draw the line?
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By Fenrir.Leoheart 2012-01-11 19:03:35
Why quit ffxi?
You're only going to come back one daaaayyyyyyyy
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-11 19:12:21
The difference between those things and VW is availability. Sky NMs had a 4-8 hour repop with a single drop. Salvage you could only go once a day. Dynamis once every three days. HNMs once a day, if you were lucky enough to get claim. We can fight 12 Pils in the span of two hours and get zilch.
The drop rates are adjusted to reflect that frequency, as well as the fact you have 18 chances at an item vs. one. Combined with the low skill barrier to success, Voidwatch is truly a lottery.
Alternatively, the system could re-calibrated to be challenging with better rewards.
But I assure you bitching would ensue from people who would declare the content inaccessible, because too much of the player base uses Abyssea as the rubric to which content must perform. They are spoiled from having a system that simultaneously crutched them and rewarded them. Quite frankly too many people attribute the lack of success pre-Abyssea to exclusivity of content based on competition rather than exclusivity of content based on skill.
Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Why must you take that comment so seriously? My only point was that kings targeted a very small niche, and very few people wanted to sit in the same spot doing nothing for the low chance of claim. Obviously most campers will end up afking until windows, but I never agreed with the afk for up to 3 hours so I can have a chance at fighting an NM that dies in 10mmins premise of kings. I just don't understand how people found that entertaining besides the drama it brought(which was hilarious and amazing mind you).
Because it was a competitive system; that in itself brought far more upfront value than anything post-Abyssea. Zero-sum competition between the player base is good. It drives the player base to work harder to top each other, it increases the fun of the game, it increases the value of accomplishments. The claim system rewards he who brings the most people willing to actually pay attention. That sounds pretty fair imo.
Given the lack of decent PvP in this game, players basically compete with each other in the sense bettering their characters relative to one another. The best way then to challenge players to get better than one another is to force them to compete for a limited resource.
As far as skinner boxes go I'd rather have a lever mechanism that is a competition between me and the other rats vs. a skinner box where we all run our own individual treadmills and race to see who gets lucky with the lever mechanism first.
That and I think farming systems are tedious and would rather just fight the big bads than go through HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE tech trees all the time.
Secondly world spawns are the best system for maintaining the type of skinner box that is ideal (high value gear that takes both a lot of effort and skill to acquire.)
The most effective way to keep something rare is to place it on a world spawn. Keeping something rare in a system that doesn't feature competition results in Voidwatch type drops where they are exceedingly rare, and there's also no skill/dedication barrier to attainment. It's pure luck. HNMs are least forced people to be good and dedicated enough that an LS would keep them and reward them.
Why is this a problem though?
I find the dynamic of being able to buy ex gear from ls's to be a very large plus. (only when its nearly impossible to monopolize)
Whats so wrong with spending your time making gil instead of participating in the events? How is this that much different from doing events and crafting an item out of drops to make gil?
Because gear should represent completion of a challenge. I have sold gear before because it was the most pragmatic way for an LS to make money for relics. But I hate the concept of it, for the same reason I hate people who have Kings gear post-KS99 pop items, or got that gear from Einherjar.
They didn't earn it.
If Voidwatch ever turned into a non-voluntary pooled loot system, I'd gladly stop paying $30 a month for my characters.
Good riddance.
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 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-11 19:14:20
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Welcome to MMOs, if you don't enjoy grinding to get what you want, there's the door ->
Just the thing, you can keep grinding and never get what you want. Fundamental flaw with voidwatch.
[quote[Oh I don't know, maybe because 90% of people I've seen crying about leaving FFXI so far have cited other games in some capacity?
Your inability to realize that all MMOs function on relatively the same model is not my issue.[/quote]
You realize people know that Korean MMOs have the most grind, yah? MMOs have a large variety. Saying every MMO only makes new content that makes you fight the same 1-3 nms several hundred times and is the only end game content is *** absurd.
Voidwatch is extremely flawed.
Voidwatch is the only new content in ffxi.
Reasonable reaction is to quit and play another MMO or do something else. Personally, I like to have fun when I play games. Not get frustrated to the point I want to kill small fuzzy animals.
Abyssea was great. The only thing people say about it bad is "too easy, don't have to work for drops". I didn't know doing something a thousands times and not being assured the drop you want was working for something.
On the point of it being too easy. Ask for harder nms?
And on that note. They're going to possibly take away the quantity of temp items for voidwatch which will make PUGs have a much smaller likeliness of clearing said event.
tl;dr
FFXI needs variety and reasonable content. Unfortunately, people seems to love being masochists and praising absolutely flawed game events to make themselves feel hardcore, or something.
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Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 19:17:05
Alternatively, the system could re-calibrated to be challenging with better rewards.
But I assure you bitching would ensue from people who would declare the content inaccessible The ever elusive bowl of porridge that's jusss' right. /sigh
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2012-01-11 19:19:07
The reason voidwatch bugs me is the huge varriation in effort spent vs rewards attained. If you look at any of the past events, be it HNM, salvage, abyssea, w/e, there was a correlation between effort spent and gear obtained. There were outliers where someone went 1/1 on a 35 body their very first salvage run, but it was generally not the case. Even then they would need to keep running with their group to get 25s/15s. Hnms you probably had to camp to get points, and unless you were in a really bad shell, after enough camping you would get your item.
Voidwatch would have a much lower correlation. The number of cases of "I went 1/3 on this going to playerZ's (who is 0/150) shout run" are rather rediculous. Then to add more insult some players end up getting multiple of the drops, or cant use the first one they recieve. Thus its not the fact that its a timesink that really gets to me (and I assume others) but that its an event that doesn't reward effort.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-11 19:20:21
Abyssea was great. The only thing people say about it bad is "too easy, don't have to work for drops". I didn't know doing something a thousands times and not being assured the drop you want was working for something.
On the point of it being too easy. Ask for harder nms?
There was absolutely no skill barrier. Absolutely none. And it was that way because people wanted it.
Between Atma, Martellos, and Brew you got ridiculously powerful gear for very little effort which just served to make Abyssea even easier.
People like content when they are successful at it. Plain and simple. That is why Abyssea went over well. It was easy enough to beat, and the rewards we plentiful.
Quote: FFXI needs variety and reasonable content. Unfortunately, people seems to love being masochists and praising absolutely flawed game events to make themselves feel hardcore, or something.
There was an EXCELLENT variety of content pre-Abyssea. Even if you didn't do HNMs there was Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Salvage, Assaults, ANNM, SCNMs, Nyzul, Campaign OPs...
The issue was that you needed to do HNMs to get the best gear.
And people hated that.
As I said, all the majority really care about is their personal success. Is it easy enough for me to win and can I realistically obtain what I want? Actual content doesn't matter.
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By Fenrir.Leoheart 2012-01-11 19:22:37
Even then, a majority of abjurations that were HNM exclusive were released into Einherjar as well.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-11 19:26:51
Even then, a majority of abjurations that were HNM exclusive were released into Einherjar as well.
Which was because Einherjar was challenging enough to require a structured LS vs. Pickups. That generally came with lines for gear, and the requirement that you be good enough the LS would want to keep you around and would want to reward you.
And God forbid that. How would people like Stephano/Eburo succeed in such an environment!
Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 19:26:57
The reason voidwatch bugs me is the huge varriation in effort spent vs rewards attained. If you look at any of the past events, be it HNM, salvage, abyssea, w/e, there was a correlation between effort spent and gear obtained. There were outliers where someone went 1/1 on a 35 body their very first salvage run, but it was generally not the case. Even then they would need to keep running with their group to get 25s/15s. Hnms you probably had to camp to get points, and unless you were in a really bad shell, after enough camping you would get your item. No. There was never a guarantee you'd even be able to pull it, let alone get the drop, and finally have everyone agree you should get it. You might be able to "guarantee" the last one but how meaningless is that if you can't even satisfy the first one but once a month?
Why should there be a guarantee that you're successful? I want to know which game you statistically have to win if you play it long enough. Even roulette, betting on black constantly with no table limit you will mathetmatically lose over time because of the zeroes.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-11 19:28:11
So let me get this straight. Just because an event brings people back the game has to keep moving in that direction?
Uh yes? You're pulling my leg right?
Abyssea brought people back to XI and ended a period in the game where things were going downhill in a hurry. The 3 'scenarios' were a cashgrab, VNM was BAD, Evoliths are among the worst ideas put into the game, Yilbegan was dropping ores/logs before Voidwatch made it cool, MMM didn't quite excite the base (outside EXP runs), the Nov '09 NM set are renown for their horrible droprates (sup Lamina/Hyakinthos) and XI was on the skids.
You had Abyssea release and immediately bring life to forums, draw interest in people in coming back to the game and that's bad? For once you had people actually enjoying FFXI and a golden opportunity for SE to reinvest in XI coming off the XIV implosion. For a brief moment it seemed like they were doing this with official forums, lightning fast (by SE standards) patches and rejuvenated responses from the base.
People were QQing about death of old endgame but most players were willing to look past that because it seemed that SE was finally putting money into this game and that the future was bright with level 99 in the works. Hell, if getting to 90 was Abyssea then 99 would bring back the challenges we had at 75 right?!
And then Voidwatch happened.
Quote: SE shouldn't make content that suits both types of players? They made a whole expansion for your type of player who likes to get everything in a single day. Voidwatch brings small updates with gear better than what abyssea brought in.
The drops from Voidwatch aren't even wtfamazing for the amount of effort they require. Yes, the glow-weapons are cool, some pieces of Athos/Ogier are badass but many of the upgrades are pathetic for the 0/200+ SE feels is sufficient to make it worthwhile.
It's like they learned absolutely nothing from Abyssea and what a middle ground was.
Many of the pieces have a tough time beating +2 Abyssea gear and that says everything about SEs new (old) habits kicking back in. Back to nerfs, delusions of balance, 5months to correct small issues, rants from the devs on what 'their' vision of XI is relative to the players, months to get a single upgrade and sparse content releases.
Look at the Walk of Echoes gear that has been churned out since Abyssea died down. Do you really think some of those pieces are worth a 36man battlefield? Does the effort match the reward? The players have voted decidedly no.
If World of Warcraft can still put ads on the TV to play their game then SE has no excuse especially when they had visions of 'multiple MMOs' on the market at once. Newsflash SE, XI isn't going to survive with a base made up of sadists and no money being invested into the game.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2012-01-11 19:30:00
There was an EXCELLENT variety of content pre-Abyssea. Even if you didn't do HNMs there was Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Salvage, Assaults, ANNM, SCNMs, Nyzul, Campaign OPs...
The issue was that you needed to do HNMs to get the best gear.
And people hated that.
All gear is situational, even Voidwatch gear. You did not neccessarily need to do HNMs to have the best gear. Usukane and Hachiryu were top of the line pieces for Samurai, the most overplayed job in the time of HNMs.
I haven't really gotten into Voidwatch, it didnt appeal to me when it came out, and while some of the body pieces are flashy, they are certainly not must haves for the jobs I play currently (with the exception of Ace's Mail for Sam). The new Nyzul+5 is going to thrash most of the current Voidwatch gear regardless, which brings me back to: All gear is situational.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-11 19:30:33
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »No. There was never a guarantee you'd even be able to pull it, let alone get the drop, and finally have everyone agree you should get it. You might be able to "guarantee" the last one but how meaningless is that if you can't even satisfy the first one but once a month?
Why should there be a guarantee that you're successful? I want to know which game you statistically have to win if you play it long enough. Even roulette, betting on black constantly with no table limit you will mathetmatically lose over time because of the zeroes.
The group that camped the most with the most active claimers arguably claims the most and has the most relative chance of attaining gear. So long as they pass the skill test barrier of being able to beat the HNM (which is surprisingly high if the amount of Fafnir wipes I've seen is any indication)
Given long enough periods of time, they mathematically come out ahead. Success is not guaranteed of course, but relatively they are better off than their competitors.
I think that's all people can and should ask for.
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By Sylph.Gredival 2012-01-11 19:34:48
All gear is situational, even Voidwatch gear. You did not neccessarily need to do HNMs to have the best gear. Usukane and Hachiryu were top of the line pieces for Samurai, the most overplayed job in the time of HNMs.
I haven't really gotten into Voidwatch, it didnt appeal to me when it came out, and while some of the body pieces are flashy, they are certainly not must haves for the jobs I play currently (with the exception of Ace's Mail for Sam). The new Nyzul+5 is going to thrash most of the current Voidwatch gear regardless, which brings me back to: All gear is situational.
Not everyone needed HNMs, I can agree to that. But my point was that for a large number of jobs, HNM gear was essential to attaining perfect sets.
Adaberk, N. Head, N. Legs, Black Belt, Ridill, Dalmatica, D. Ring.
For the people that wanted those pieces, they HAD to do HNMs. And for the people that both wanted the gear but couldn't cut it, they blamed the game. So they bitched and bitched.
Then we got Abyssea after five years, where there were no barriers of access or of skill. And everyone got what they wanted.
Can you get by without elite gear? Of course you can. That's the very reason why I have NO problem whatsoever with a system where not everyone will attain everything. Not everyone deserves top-line gear.
I hate Voidwatch because there's no correlation between skill and reward. Groups full of people that suck can succeed because of temp items. The person who gets the cool items is completely arbitrary. Because the loot pool is personal there's no incentive to limit who you take so you have leeches that skate by from shout group to shout group.
The test of dedication is how long you're willing to play the lottery.
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Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1925
By Odin.Sawtelle 2012-01-11 19:35:35
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »No. There was never a guarantee you'd even be able to pull it, let alone get the drop, and finally have everyone agree you should get it. You might be able to "guarantee" the last one but how meaningless is that if you can't even satisfy the first one but once a month?
If you were in a HNM shell that couldn't reliably claim nidhogg to keep the list of gear moving, you were in a bad shell.
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Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-11 19:38:08
Asking for robust and obscene amounts of new material in a game as old as FFXI, which is known to have limited resources for whatever reason or another, it an effort in futility. Instead of complaining about the one event that you don't feel like doing, go do the other 8+ events within the game that you clearly had no problem playing around in, or else you wouldn't be here right now.
Seriously, while there's little to no guarantee that it will ever be changed, the Voidwatch loot system only needs one or two simple refinements to be "acceptable" to the people that seem to be in an absolute tizzy over it. Show me an MMO that fixes things as quickly as you want them fixed. It doesn't happen.
There's simply too many people to cater to with too divergent of interests. What you consider to be the "majority" may not be the majority at all; in fact, just on this forum in this thread alone there are those in both corners of the ring.
Ragnarok.Kongming
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 19:42:24
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Uh yes? You're pulling my leg right?
Abyssea brought people back to XI and ended a period in the game where things were going downhill in a hurry. Abyssea didn't increase the population, it decreased the rate at which people were quitting. Just because x amount of your friends came back to the game, doesn't mean that the general trend wasn't still down. The primary reason for this was because of the stagnation up until Abyssea. The problem with Abyssea was that, despite the stagnation, players were asked to shell out another $30 for what was perceivably more of the same crap they were already sick of, and there were more people who said "I'm not paying for this" and quit, than who were already quit and said "this looks kinda cool".
Don't believe me? Look where the last two server merges end up. They're mid- and post-Abyssea. There's nothing that calls for a world merge in MMOs except necessity; it's always a last ditch effort to keep things alive. So you're not about to convince anyone that Abyssea made a fluctuation.
| 01-10-2012 03:02 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep |  |
| Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)
Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.
Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.
Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.
In regards to other feedback we have received, especially about the areas we plan to focus on to address, I would like to go over the planned adjustments.
Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.
Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.
Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.
Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.
Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.
Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.
Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback. | |
| 01-16-2012 04:39 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Hey everyone!
Thank you for all of your feedback.
I would like to answer some of the questions that have been raised in response to the planned adjustments that I announced last week, as well as provide more detailed information on the battle adjustments that will be made.
Now, I am sure that some players are worried that this content will become more difficult to complete or that it will become more difficult to obtain loot, but I would like to assure you that none of the planned adjustments will be disadvantageous for the players.
Freezing issue in certain zones
A lot of players have been reporting freezing issues with Voidwatch in Fort Karugo-Narugo (S). This issue is being addressed with the highest priority.
As a temporary fix, we plan on implementing a Voidwatch battle with the same content as Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) in a different area.
Battle adjustments
Quote: My opinion on Voidwatch is that it is content in which the player must proc weaknesses with the correct timing and use temporary items wisely.
That is exactly what our idea for Voidwatch was at the time of first implementation.
However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.
As a future adjustment, we’re considering lowering the damage that non-targeted characters receive from AoE spells. We will re-evaluate the overall balance once we reduce the damage from AoE spells, but if further adjustments are necessary, we may look into the effects of weaknesses.
※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.
The separation of exploiting weakness and loot
A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items. As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot. | |
| 01-18-2012 04:34 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Howdy!
I would like to make an addition to a planned adjustment that was announced earlier.
The issue at hand is the highest priority issue that we would like to address first before we make any other adjustments. There are many other adjustments we would like to make, but if we make too many adjustments at once, the following issues may occur:
The balance is shifted too quickly, possibly making the game worse
It is difficult to see improvement because too many changes are made
An unexpected adverse effect occurs due to the changes overlapping
To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.
In response to us making adjustments in stages, many of you may feel that we are not making enough adjustments, but we hope you understand that our plan is to continuously make adjustments.
Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.
Now, I will address some feedback that has been submitted.
Quote: I personally like the separation of weaknesses and loot, but I feel like this leads to players simply switching to their strongest jobs to finish content.
In order to avoid content becoming monotonous, an idea we are looking into is not completely separating weakness and loot by increasing the maximum bonus attained through cells and other ascent items. As a result, if there are few players involved, using cells will replace having to proc weakness, and for larger parties, it would be possible to avoid paying the high cost for cells by procing weakness as usual.
We may discover some issues with the above proposal upon our extensive review, but we believe that if we completely separate weakness and loot, it is inevitable that players will lean toward using only their strongest jobs.
In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available. This is a long term goal for us, so it is not possible to make this change all at once, but we will be taking steps one by one to achieve this goal.
Please let us know what you think. | |
| 01-23-2012 02:22 PM | | Camate | | Community Rep | |
| Greetings!
We will be implementing the below adjustments to Voidwatch during this week’s test server update.
Addition of same battle content as Route: Jeuno 2 - Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) to Beaucedine Glacier.
※Beaudedine Glacier has been added to the list of teleports offered by the Atmacite Refiner.
※The above addition is a provisional change.
We will continue to make adjustments as we see how the current AoE damage adjustments affect battles going forward, so please be sure to submit any feedback you have. | |
| 01-26-2012 01:43 AM | | Gildrein | | Community Rep |  |
| [dev1075] Voidwatch Adjustments
*The following content is in development. Specific details may differ from the release version.
The Jeuno II Voidwatch operation at Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) may also be undertaken at Beaucedine Glacier.
*Beaucedine Glacier will be added as a destination to Atmacite Refiner teleportation menus.
*This is a temporary measure.
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