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[Dev] Voidwatch: Response to Feedback
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Server: Siren
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Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-11 16:55:58
If you spent long enough a day I think you could. There are some things, especially right after an update, that go for quite a bit and if you can manage to get it once a day then it's possible.
I personally never come close though, but I don't do it enough. I made a mil the other day though but that's just dumb luck.
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-11 16:57:18
If he gets Heavy Metal plates perhaps or lucks out on a still valuable drop but he's still overstating himself with 'some'. 'Rarely' fits more reasonably.
Most people are lucky to scratch a couple hundred K in 10 runs of something like Qilin. Mobs like Celaeno or Voidwrought? Yeah, good luck getting anything worth gil.
Server: Phoenix
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-01-11 16:57:56
My point was that there are much much better things they could give us that allow for time sinks(necessary in an MMO I know). Time sinks can be enjoyable and don't need to be plagued by such an extremely random drop system.
Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2012-01-11 17:00:06
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Most people are lucky to scratch a couple hundred K in 10 runs of something like Qilin. Mobs like Celaeno or Voidwrought? Yeah, good luck getting anything worth gil. This is what I'm talking about.
Perhaps one million is possible, but five millions? sorry, but no.
Server: Odin
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By Odin.Almont 2012-01-11 17:03:43
Quetzalcoatl.Zagam said: »Phoenix.Dramatica said: »Voidwatch has nothing to do with effort or reward, it's simply playing the lottery and hoping you win. More people need to understand this and realize the flaws. everything in a MMO is a lottery , more people need to understand its a business designed to keep timesinks and you keep paying.
You're choosing to focus on a single point almost to the exclusion of all else. No one's arguing that MMOs aren't designed to keep people playing, and it doesn't seem like anyone's arguing that droprates from ALL events are varying levels of lottery either. We all realize the drops are a lottery all the way around but you're trying to describe the Voidwatch system as better just because people can go spam 15 Pils in 3 hours instead of being limited to 1 time every X hours. The irritation is coming out because people feel like they're re-rolling and re-rolling and re-rolling those dice but they just keep coming up zeroes.
Most importantly, while past events like Dynamis, Einherjar, Salvage, Limbus were lotteries too, at least we felt like we were helping our friends or shell members out. Even if your item didn't happen to drop, something else that someone else really wanted likely did and I doubt that people were going 0/300+ in those events and not seeing their desired item (...maybe Salvage). Neither Abyssea or Voidwatch encourage ongoing group effort. In most cases, instead of it being your friends it's Random Player #643 who gets their loot and moves on to whichever shout group is organizing for the NM they want something from next. I guess if that's better to you then more power to you.
Edit: holy responses-- Blah, posting @ work in between calls, so... Forgive my response to 3 pages ago.
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-11 17:06:11
The ideal timesink is something that keeps you excited enough about the content to continue repetition with a relative smile on your face.
Nyzul was a good timesink. Drops weren't exactly common but you only invested 30mins into a run, could be casual about it, progress came in the form of climbing floors and the weapon skills attached made doing the event an overall reward.
Sure you had crappy ??? items, stories of abysmal droprates on certain pieces (man I took forever to get Askar hat for my GF) and you had to sacrifice Assault/Salvage to do runs but the time investment was small for the chance at reward.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2012-01-11 17:07:08
Salvage was the only thing that had drop rates that compared, but the whole event as a whole and the ability to lowman made it much more enjoyable. Also the rewards at the time were extremely good.
Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 17:23:30
Most importantly, while past events like Dynamis, Einherjar, Salvage, Limbus were lotteries too, at least we felt like we were helping our friends or shell members out. Even if your item didn't happen to drop, something else that someone else really wanted likely did and I doubt that people were going 0/300+ in those events and not seeing their desired item (...maybe Salvage). Neither Abyssea or Voidwatch encourage ongoing group effort. In most cases, instead of it being your friends it's Random Player #643 who gets their loot and moves on to whichever shout group is organizing for the NM they want something from next. I guess if that's better to you then more power to you. For your example to work, it means that most people are getting the gear they want.
Not to mention this is how just about every system in the game works. There are the easily obtainables (short term) that keep the majority of people interested, and there are the elusive items (long haul) that drive the people who are after them to organize groups to begin with. Without the long haul items, no one would be bothered to make ANY groups. How many of you got a twilight belt from someone who was after mail? Imagine if mail had the same drop rate as the belt.. there would be a lot less belts out there.
Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2012-01-11 17:38:51
I've always operated under the belief that SE assumes low drop rates = hard. And it doesn't need to be that way.
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-11 17:45:04
high drop rates = content dies faster
then we are left to do nothing for months until the next thing comes out.
I'd rather have my timesink.
Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 17:48:08
I thought CoP missions were decently challenging, and that was before they were nerfed (some of them) four times.
Quote: I've always operated under the belief that SE assumes gimmicky/cheap/party-configuration-required BCs = hard. And it doesn't need to be that way.
I swear.. complainers are self-contradicting broken records.
Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-11 17:49:24
high drop rates = content dies faster
then we are left to do nothing for months until the next thing comes out.
I'd rather have my timesink.
How it should be.
Release more content.
Every single other MMO does it.
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Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-11 17:51:16
high drop rates = content dies faster
then we are left to do nothing for months until the next thing comes out.
I'd rather have my timesink.
How it should be.
Release more content.
Every single other MMO does it. It's not humanly possible to do it at such a pace that allows players to clear it in 2 weeks though. If you don't like time sinks you shouldn't play mmos to begin with.
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Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 17:54:30
And remember that Abyssea was essentially premium content. You weren't paying 12.95/month for it, you were paying that + $30.
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2012-01-11 17:55:33
Get new expansion.
Pay 30$
Isnt finished for 4years.
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By Odin.Almont 2012-01-11 18:03:16
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »... instead of it being your friends it's Random Player #643 who gets their loot and moves on ... For your example to work, it means that most people are getting the gear they want.
Not to mention this is how just about every system in the game works.
To your first point: Actually it doesn't. It just requires that some people are getting the gear they want. This is already happening and multiple people in this thread have mentioned the same type of frustration.
To your second point, the other systems in the game do operate similarly but nowhere else are the droprates as ridiculously low except perhaps Salvage where for some pieces you first rolled the dice that a particular NM would even spawn, then rolled again for whether it dropped the item you needed.
I'l reiterate: Even in an MMO-style time sink good design dictates that there is a point past which effort expended no longer justifies the rewards obtained for said effort. When the reward formula in place is --or even just feels like it is-- highly random that is not good design or implementation.
Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-11 18:06:56
high drop rates = content dies faster
then we are left to do nothing for months until the next thing comes out.
I'd rather have my timesink.
How it should be.
Release more content.
Every single other MMO does it. It's not humanly possible to do it at such a pace that allows players to clear it in 2 weeks though. If you don't like time sinks you shouldn't play mmos to begin with.
Quote: Every single other MMO does it.
It's not time sinks we don't like. Dragging out 3 fights for 3 months is extremely poor design for any game.
Keep saying you like it though, and make sure to voice your opinion on the OF.
People are quitting/have quit over Voidwatch and the new direction of ffxi. That is a fact.
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-11 18:12:49
I've already stated the difference between reasonable complaint and stupid whining. No reason to repeat the same thing again.
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Ragnarok.Kongming
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By Ragnarok.Kongming 2012-01-11 18:13:33
I'l reiterate: Even in an MMO-style time sink good design dictates that there is a point past which effort expended no longer justifies the rewards obtained for said effort. When the reward formula in place is --or even just feels like it is-- highly random that is not good design or implementation. You're saying making luck a factor is a bad design. It's as if we've been playing completely different games for the last 9 years, because I don't think you're talking about the FFXI that I am. I don't even think you're in the right genre.
Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-11 18:16:16
I've already stated the difference between reasonable complaint and stupid whining. No reason to repeat the same thing again.
And I've already stated the difference between acceptable grind and absurd ***. Yet you keep saying the same thing.
I've already made my statement and quit the game. If the undo the massive amount of *** they've put in it, I might come back.
Quetzalcoatl.Zagam
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By Quetzalcoatl.Zagam 2012-01-11 18:16:52
People are quitting/have quit over Voidwatch and the new direction of ffxi. That is a fact.
And people quit/have quit over abyssea,dynamis,hnm,expansions every other thing thats been done your point?
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2012-01-11 18:20:52
People have quit over everything, but only Abyssea had a large revitalization. Some people quit, sure, but mostly HNM die-hards whining about their long-dead content. All the fresh, and returning, faces we've been seeing over the past few months has been because of Abyssea folks, not Voidwatch.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-11 18:21:35
Quetzalcoatl.Zagam said: »
People are quitting/have quit over Voidwatch and the new direction of ffxi. That is a fact.
And people quit/have quit over abyssea,dynamis,hnm,expansions every other thing thats been done your point?
This. I still fail to see how Voidwatch is so much more of a doomsday device than anything else that's ever been added to FFXI. People are certainly blowing it out of proportion.
No one's forcing you to do Voidwatch, just do more of the Abyssea you love so much until they add something that meets your level of expectations.
Quetzalcoatl.Zagam
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By Quetzalcoatl.Zagam 2012-01-11 18:27:52
People have quit over everything, but only Abyssea had a large revitalization. Some people quit, sure, but mostly HNM die-hards whining about their long-dead content. All the fresh, and returning, faces we've been seeing over the past few months has been because of Abyssea folks, not Voidwatch. Dont mistake you're opinions as facts. how many actually started back up or started fresh because of abyssea? I know of 2 brand new players that started during abyssea time and 1 maybe 2 that came back because of abyssea and there the type that quit every few months and come back and quit and come back anyway. I know of MANY characters reinstated and many brand new accounts made because of abyssea that are SOLELY sock accouts. Abyssea did create alot of new subscriptions but don't take that as any more then mules.
Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-01-11 18:29:03
People have quit over everything, but only Abyssea had a large revitalization. Some people quit, sure, but mostly HNM die-hards whining about their long-dead content. All the fresh, and returning, faces we've been seeing over the past few months has been because of Abyssea folks, not Voidwatch.
This, basically.
Voidwatch brought back the <1% drop rate of ffxi where I did no content and basically didn't play.
I'm already moving on to other games that aren't so ***-backwards and kicking their playerbase in the teeth after every single update.
I love ffxi, I really do. I will keep arguing against SE and the idiotic playerbase for decent content because of that.
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Sylph.Zohnax
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By Sylph.Zohnax 2012-01-11 18:32:49
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Quetzalcoatl.Zagam said: » People are quitting/have quit over Voidwatch and the new direction of ffxi. That is a fact. And people quit/have quit over abyssea,dynamis,hnm,expansions every other thing thats been done your point? This. I still fail to see how Voidwatch is so much more of a doomsday device than anything else that's ever been added to FFXI. People are certainly blowing it out of proportion. No one's forcing you to do Voidwatch, just do more of the Abyssea you love so much until they add something that meets your level of expectations. Seems like an idiotic statement. If a majority of the playerbase finds the system of Voidwatch shi*t, then it's probably sh*t. We don't have to deal with anything either by posting our voices for reasonable change on the Official Forums or by telling SE to suck it and ending your contract to their game. Say you have a linkshell of 18 people who all want one body off of one NM. Now tell me on this system how long it will take for them all to get it. Now that's just one NM and how many Ra/Ex items were wasted in the meanwhile. The option to destroy a Ra/Ex item is completely idiotic. They talk about you get 18 chances to get a reward, well then if you already got it why not put it in the treasure pool?
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By Cerberus.Cleverness 2012-01-11 18:35:36
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Quetzalcoatl.Zagam said: »
People are quitting/have quit over Voidwatch and the new direction of ffxi. That is a fact.
And people quit/have quit over abyssea,dynamis,hnm,expansions every other thing thats been done your point?
This. I still fail to see how Voidwatch is so much more of a doomsday device than anything else that's ever been added to FFXI. People are certainly blowing it out of proportion.
No one's forcing you to do Voidwatch, just do more of the Abyssea you love so much until they add something that meets your level of expectations.
Except all new content is catered outside of Abyssea? Abyssea may not have been the best source of content for some people, but I don't think anyone can state that it wasn't accessible for the majority of the playerbase. While there are ideal job setups for certain things, you can literally do it with almost any setup you wanted honestly as long as a healer was involved.
Voidwatch requires more coordination and such compared to that, yet the way the rewards are dished out is even worse, which makes zero sense. There's nothing stopping them from adding a currency system for VW that'll allow, for example, people to just straight purchase the bodies if it doesn't drop after 100+ kills, which alot of people are going through.
Noone is asking for handouts and free gear after a handful of kills, but VW atm is a chore. There are people who do it daily, having to buy voiddust now to manage to attend runs, that are without bodies, while random people invited from shouts are getting it. That's not a proper reward system when you take into account the time put in.
Quetzalcoatl.Zagam
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By Quetzalcoatl.Zagam 2012-01-11 18:36:30
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Quetzalcoatl.Zagam said: » People are quitting/have quit over Voidwatch and the new direction of ffxi. That is a fact. And people quit/have quit over abyssea,dynamis,hnm,expansions every other thing thats been done your point? This. I still fail to see how Voidwatch is so much more of a doomsday device than anything else that's ever been added to FFXI. People are certainly blowing it out of proportion. No one's forcing you to do Voidwatch, just do more of the Abyssea you love so much until they add something that meets your level of expectations. Seems like an idiotic statement. If a majority of the playerbase finds the system of Voidwatch shi*t, then it's probably sh*t.
And so is saying vw is ***when a shout group fills up in under 5 min
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-01-11 18:36:52
So let me get this straight. Just because an event brings people back the game has to keep moving in that direction?
Abyssea was ***to me, could get anything you want with no effort or a game of chance at all.
SE shouldn't make content that suits both types of players? They made a whole expansion for your type of player who likes to get everything in a single day. Voidwatch brings small updates with gear better than what abyssea brought in.
It's better because of the rarity of the items. If they were more available the items could not be as powerful as they are and they would have to be adjusted.
If you don't like voidwatch then don't do it. People who didn't like abyssea didn't do it for over a year and a half, why can't you do the same?
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Bismarck.Gaspee
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By Bismarck.Gaspee 2012-01-11 18:37:13
Just my two cents:
I wouldn't mind if they decreased the drop rates on Voidwatch if they allowed us some way to get the drops to people who actually needed them. Similarly, getting the same drop repeatedly, especially when it's rare/ex and you can't get it again, is mind-numbingly stupid. I had 3 pairs of Fajin boots distribute to me at Qilin today.
Other than loot distribution, I do think it's good transition content until (if) something major is released.
01-10-2012 03:02 PM | Camate | Community Rep |  |
| Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)
Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.
Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.
Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.
In regards to other feedback we have received, especially about the areas we plan to focus on to address, I would like to go over the planned adjustments.
Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.
Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.
Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.
Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.
Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.
Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.
Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback. | |
01-16-2012 04:39 PM | Camate | Community Rep |  |
| Hey everyone!
Thank you for all of your feedback.
I would like to answer some of the questions that have been raised in response to the planned adjustments that I announced last week, as well as provide more detailed information on the battle adjustments that will be made.
Now, I am sure that some players are worried that this content will become more difficult to complete or that it will become more difficult to obtain loot, but I would like to assure you that none of the planned adjustments will be disadvantageous for the players.
Freezing issue in certain zones
A lot of players have been reporting freezing issues with Voidwatch in Fort Karugo-Narugo (S). This issue is being addressed with the highest priority.
As a temporary fix, we plan on implementing a Voidwatch battle with the same content as Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) in a different area.
Battle adjustments
Quote: My opinion on Voidwatch is that it is content in which the player must proc weaknesses with the correct timing and use temporary items wisely.
That is exactly what our idea for Voidwatch was at the time of first implementation.
However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.
As a future adjustment, we’re considering lowering the damage that non-targeted characters receive from AoE spells. We will re-evaluate the overall balance once we reduce the damage from AoE spells, but if further adjustments are necessary, we may look into the effects of weaknesses.
※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.
The separation of exploiting weakness and loot
A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items. As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot. | |
01-18-2012 04:34 PM | Camate | Community Rep |  |
| Howdy!
I would like to make an addition to a planned adjustment that was announced earlier.
The issue at hand is the highest priority issue that we would like to address first before we make any other adjustments. There are many other adjustments we would like to make, but if we make too many adjustments at once, the following issues may occur:
The balance is shifted too quickly, possibly making the game worse
It is difficult to see improvement because too many changes are made
An unexpected adverse effect occurs due to the changes overlapping
To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.
In response to us making adjustments in stages, many of you may feel that we are not making enough adjustments, but we hope you understand that our plan is to continuously make adjustments.
Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.
Now, I will address some feedback that has been submitted.
Quote: I personally like the separation of weaknesses and loot, but I feel like this leads to players simply switching to their strongest jobs to finish content. We understand your concern that players will simply switch to their strongest jobs due to the removal of the necessity to proc weaknesses and we’re carefully planning to address this issue.
In order to avoid content becoming monotonous, an idea we are looking into is not completely separating weakness and loot by increasing the maximum bonus attained through cells and other ascent items. As a result, if there are few players involved, using cells will replace having to proc weakness, and for larger parties, it would be possible to avoid paying the high cost for cells by procing weakness as usual.
We may discover some issues with the above proposal upon our extensive review, but we believe that if we completely separate weakness and loot, it is inevitable that players will lean toward using only their strongest jobs.
In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available. This is a long term goal for us, so it is not possible to make this change all at once, but we will be taking steps one by one to achieve this goal.
Please let us know what you think. | |
01-23-2012 02:22 PM | Camate | Community Rep |  |
| Greetings!
We will be implementing the below adjustments to Voidwatch during this week’s test server update.
Addition of same battle content as Route: Jeuno 2 - Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) to Beaucedine Glacier.
※Beaudedine Glacier has been added to the list of teleports offered by the Atmacite Refiner.
※The above addition is a provisional change.
We will continue to make adjustments as we see how the current AoE damage adjustments affect battles going forward, so please be sure to submit any feedback you have. | |
01-26-2012 01:43 AM | Gildrein | Community Rep |  |
| [dev1075] Voidwatch Adjustments
*The following content is in development. Specific details may differ from the release version.
The Jeuno II Voidwatch operation at Fort Karugo-Narugo (S) may also be undertaken at Beaucedine Glacier.
*Beaucedine Glacier will be added as a destination to Atmacite Refiner teleportation menus.
*This is a temporary measure.
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