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Laws And Rules and Regulations...oh my!
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 11:35:49
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Corporations would dump more toxic chemicals into the water without the discouragement of penalties
you have obviously never been to ohio or new jersey.
but I digress.
What proof do you offer that a law, any law, has reduced anything, be it the amount of chemicals dumped, or anything else.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-02-02 11:35:58
Speaking of laws, are we going to talk about ones that could actually fly here
by "fly" do you mean that people would obey the law? or it would have the intended impact?
I meant ones that could actually be passed in the first place. We're not even to the point of discussing potential impact of any real laws because people would rather discuss the possibility of things that will never happen.
So, we should pass laws based on their theoretical probability of passage?
Not necessarily, but it's a waste of time to discuss ones with nearly zero probability of passage.
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By Jetackuu 2016-02-02 11:38:01
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Why do you think I speak poorly and make fun of America while I am overseas? Because you're self loathing.
Better than being blinded. Doubt it relates, but it was more of a joke, son.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 11:39:03
Not necessarily, but it's a waste of time to discuss ones with nearly zero probability of passage.
What's the difference between a law in effect now and one that hasn't passed?
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 Asura.Ina
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By Asura.Ina 2016-02-02 11:40:36
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »the definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results
Humanity IS insane. Obviously.
Right, so then what is with this dog and pony show that we call the law?
what purpose does it serve?
to create an illusion that we are doing something about societal problems. Oddly a book I'm reading had the same kind of discussion between 2 characters
It's a cynical view point but not a way I've ever seen the concept of laws explained... idk if it actually fits here with it seeming to turn into another gun thread
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By Anna Ruthven 2016-02-02 11:40:47
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »This will go well.
Contribute to the topic or GTFO. This. To be honest, the fact that Niko is actually being used as a voice of reason here disturbs me greatly.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-02 11:43:32
Why make statements if you do not wish to back them up?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 11:44:10
It's a cynical view point but not a way I've ever seen the concept of laws explained... idk if it actually fits here with it seeming to turn into another gun thread
it doesn't have to be about guns or gun laws. it can be about any law or rule or regulation.
we pass laws because they can be passed, we can get a majority of elected representatives to agree to their passage, but what is the point if the law is written only so that it can be passed?
By Jetackuu 2016-02-02 11:50:14
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Corporations would dump more toxic chemicals into the water without the discouragement of penalties
you have obviously never been to new jersey.
Lol, wut? lol'd
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 11:50:34
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »What do you expect?
from you? nothing at all.
sadly I doubt that you have the ability to grasp the meaning of this discussion at all.
Normally, I would recommend a backread but in your case I doubt it would prove helpful.
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By Siren.Obliterate 2016-02-02 11:50:58
Laws need to be in place in order for humans to co-exist in society. It would be a different world if none were needed and everyone could use courtesy and common sense, unfortunately this is not the case.
Laws are semi used as a deterrent for the law abiding citizens that will follow them, but any laws main purpose is to be in place simply to give citizens direction on what is allowed(in said society) and what isn't. They do not take away a persons ability to choose to follow the said law or not(in most cases). Anyone is free to choose whether they will follow them or not.
Having said that, the main deterrent is in both the enforcement of the laws and the punishment. The stricter the enforcement and punishment, the bigger the deterrent. As an example, if the punishment for owning a gun was punishable by death if caught, I can guarantee a lot less people would own them, but at the same time some people would still choose to have them despite the laws/punishment.
Just because a certain portion of people will always choose to break laws, doesn't mean that we do not have to have them in place in our society.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-02 11:53:26
It's a cynical view point but not a way I've ever seen the concept of laws explained... idk if it actually fits here with it seeming to turn into another gun thread
it doesn't have to be about guns or gun laws. it can be about any law or rule or regulation.
we pass laws because they can be passed, we can get a majority of elected representatives to agree to their passage, but what is the point if the law is written only so that it can be passed? It's not just laws that are written for the sake of being written.
Don't forget what I posted yesterday.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 11:54:32
Laws need to be in place in order for humans to co-exist in society.
I disagree.
As you went on to state, people will always choose to break laws.
What then is their function?
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-02-02 11:54:41
it doesn't have to be about guns or gun laws That would be nice. I stopped having fun the moment I stepped into that discussion.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-02 11:54:56
Laws need to be in place in order for humans to co-exist in society. I don't think anyone is arguing to dissolve all laws or something close to that.
We are talking about laws being written just for the sake of being laws, with no real purpose or reason to them.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 11:57:45
I don't think anyone is arguing to dissolve all laws or something close to that.
I am actually.
If laws don't serve their intended purpose, than what do they provide us?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 12:01:27
it doesn't have to be about guns or gun laws That would be nice. I stopped having fun the moment I stepped into that discussion.
I understand your desire for there to be a way to stop our very self destructive nature.
My point is if such a thing existed, wouldn't we have found it by now?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 12:03:30
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »on't be naive.
I am not wasting my time providing proof. I don't care what you believe.
What do you expect?
oh you were finished? then allow me to retort.....
deepwater horizon
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-02-02 12:04:07
Maybe we don't have a way, but we can always try to minimize the damage. I don't think damage control is ever a worthless endeavour even if the end result is inescapable.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-02 12:04:22
I don't think anyone is arguing to dissolve all laws or something close to that.
I am actually.
If laws don't serve their intended purpose, than what do they provide us? But all laws?
I'm with you for the laws that don't serve their intended purpose or are counterproductive, but that's really only a small portion of the total number of laws out there.
But most of the laws out there are actually doing what they intend to do. Such as the law which requires truck drivers to keep a log book regarding the total number of miles driven per day, stops made, and number of hours on duty. That law is made to prevent drivers from exceeding another law (16 hours per day on duty), and helps keep drivers from falling asleep while on the road.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 12:06:12
Maybe we don't have a way, but we can always try to minimize the damage. I don't think damage control is ever a worthless endeavour even if the end result is inescapable.
I don't think it's working.
And I think it's time we thought of something else.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 12:07:38
But most of the laws out there are actually doing what they intend to do. Such as the law which requires truck drivers to keep a log book regarding the total number of miles driven per day, stops made, and number of hours on duty. That law is made to prevent drivers from exceeding another law (16 hours per day on duty), and helps keep drivers from falling asleep while on the road.
but they still fall asleep all the time.
and they keep two sets of books in order to fudge the numbers.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-02 12:09:56
But most of the laws out there are actually doing what they intend to do. Such as the law which requires truck drivers to keep a log book regarding the total number of miles driven per day, stops made, and number of hours on duty. That law is made to prevent drivers from exceeding another law (16 hours per day on duty), and helps keep drivers from falling asleep while on the road.
but they still fall asleep all the time.
and they keep two sets of books in order to fudge the numbers. I cannot argue about truck drivers because I don't know the industry practice.
However, I can argue about Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002. That law is working as intended.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-02 12:11:56
and this is the fallacy we keep falling into.
that somehow we can write a law which will change our behavior. it doesn't work that way....
if it were as simple as changing the code on a program we would have figured out the code by now.
we haven't failed for lack of trying.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-02 12:15:56
and this is the fallacy we keep falling into.
that somehow we can write a law which will change our behavior. it doesn't work that way....
if it were as simple as changing the code on a program we would have figured out the code by now.
we haven't failed for lack of trying. Laws work when honest people seek to make it work.
The reason why Sarbanes-Oxley works is because it's geared towards an honest profession who's sole purpose is to report the most correct information possible, and prevents dishonest people from taking advantage of those who just do not know better, at least in the financial standpoint.
While it will not erase fraud from happening, it will prevent fraud from happening due to familiarity. Which is a good thing, and an easy trap accountants sometimes fall into when auditing a company for decades.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-02-02 12:18:15
And I think it's time we thought of something else. May I inquire if you have different ideas already or it's just a call for a switch in the way of thinking?
 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-02-02 12:18:27
I don't think anyone is arguing to dissolve all laws or something close to that. I am actually.
If laws don't serve their intended purpose, than what do they provide us? Employment for politicians who make them.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-02 12:21:27
And I think it's time we thought of something else. May I inquire if you have different ideas already or it's just a call for a switch in the way of thinking? Only way I can think of where laws will become unnecessary is if we ingrained our society in a way where it is considered inconceivable to commit a crime in the first place.
One where a person would rather die than to kill another human being.
That would take generations of mental reprogramming to do, however.
By Yatenkou 2016-02-02 12:22:29
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »Corporations would dump more toxic chemicals into the water without the discouragement of penalties
you have obviously never been to ohio or new jersey.
but I digress.
What proof do you offer that a law, any law, has reduced anything, be it the amount of chemicals dumped, or anything else.
Oh god...I bet our river had a two headed fish or something in it at one point.
you're probably breaking the law right now
In the now locked gun thread I was trying to have a discussion about laws and their impact... So why not make it it's own thread and carry it over here!
"These people have made many rules that the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule." Sitting Bull
“Behold, the Spring has come; the earth has received the embraces of the sun and we shall soon see the results of that love!
Every seed is awakened and so has all animal life. It is through this mysterious power that we too have our being, and we therefore yield to our neighbors, even our animal neighbors, the same right as ourselves, to inhabit this land.
Yet, hear me, people, we have now to deal with another race – small and feeble when our fathers first met them but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possession is a disease with them. These people have made many rules that the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
They claim this mother of ours, the earth, for their own and fence their neighbors away; they deface her with their buildings and their refuse. The nation is like a spring freshet that overruns its banks and destroys all that are in its path.
We cannot dwell side by side. Only seven years ago we made a treaty by which we were assured that the buffalo country should be left to us forever. Now they threaten to take that away from us. My brothers, shall we submit or shall we say to them: 'First kill me before you take possession of my land”
― Sitting Bull
So let's get into it. Whether it's gun laws or speed limits, every day we create more laws that few follow.... and whether or not you "get away with" breaking laws is typically decided by how much money you have. (*See Affluenza Teen)
What good are laws that regulate the caliber of a bullet or the size of a magazine when those that have no respect for laws are breaking one of the most fundamental and harshly punished laws already, MURDER. Who do we imagine would abide by these additional laws we consider writing?
What law ever stopped a crime from happening or undid the horror of it's impact?
Do laws and rules make you feel safe? If laws don't stop a crime from happening what is their purpose? Perhaps they exist only to create a recourse for revenge against those that break them, are unlucky enough to get caught and then can't afford to buy their way out of trouble.
tl;dr locks only keep people without tools out...justice is the whim of a judge...and other mad ramblings of a deranged lunatic.
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