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Laws And Rules and Regulations...oh my!
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2016-02-04 15:56:18
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-04 16:00:13
That explains a lot.
By fonewear 2016-02-04 18:27:34
*desperate attempt to go back on track*
While I don't agree fully with Hobbes, I agree with one thing he says(and partly Locke): in a state of nature men are in a constant state of conflict due to the ius in omnia(pretty much everyone just thinks about themselves, or their restricted circle); the state of law ensures that rights are equally distributed(as much as possible at least), rather than being overtaken by whoever is strongest and can "eat the weaker".
Now you could say our states are not perfect as equality surely isn't ensured to everyone, and cause the stronger still devours the weaker, but this would lead us into a discussion about philosophy of economic models and I'm not sure if we wanna delve into that, at least in this specific thread(although that is interesting too if people don't go all partisan about it).
But yeah, ideally a state provides us the greatest equality while reducing conflict to a minimum. Ideally...
That is a lot of words to say socialism.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-04 22:04:01
On this forum, Malicious compliance and Passive Aggressive is one and the same.
No they aren't.
not here. not there. not anywhere!
and the second line right there KN that is a classic... it is a green eggs and ham joke...
full text for everyone who hasn't gotten to this book in reading class yet
"GREEN EGGS AND HAM" (by Doctor Seuss)
I AM SAM. I AM SAM. SAM I AM.
THAT SAM-I-AM! THAT SAM-I-AM! I DO NOT LIKE THAT SAM-I-AM!
DO WOULD YOU LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM?
I DO NOT LIKE THEM,SAM-I-AM.
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.
WOULD YOU LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE?
I WOULD NOT LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE.
I WOULD NOT LIKE THEM ANYWHERE.
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
WOULD YOU LIKE THEM IN A HOUSE?
WOULD YOU LIKE THEN WITH A MOUSE?
I DO NOT LIKE THEM IN A HOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM WITH A MOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM ANYWHERE.
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
WOULD YOU EAT THEM IN A BOX?
WOULD YOU EAT THEM WITH A FOX?
NOT IN A BOX. NOT WITH A FOX.
NOT IN A HOUSE. NOT WITH A MOUSE.
I WOULD NOT EAT THEM HERE OR THERE.
I WOULD NOT EAT THEM ANYWHERE.
I WOULD NOT EAT GREEN EGGS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
WOULD YOU? COULD YOU? IN A CAR?
EAT THEM! EAT THEM! HERE THEY ARE.
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT, IN A CAR.
YOU MAY LIKE THEM. YOU WILL SEE.
YOU MAY LIKE THEM IN A TREE!
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT IN A TREE.
NOT IN A CAR! YOU LET ME BE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM IN A BOX.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM WITH A FOX.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM IN A HOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM WITH A MOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM ANYWHERE.
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
A TRAIN! A TRAIN! A TRAIN! A TRAIN!
COULD YOU, WOULD YOU ON A TRAIN?
NOT ON TRAIN! NOT IN A TREE!
NOT IN A CAR! SAM! LET ME BE!
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT, IN A BOX.
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT, WITH A FOX.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM IN A HOUSE.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM HERE OR THERE.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM ANYWHERE.
I DO NOT EAT GREEM EGGS AND HAM.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
SAY! IN THE DARK? HERE IN THE DARK!
WOULD YOU, COULD YOU, IN THE DARK?
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT, IN THE DARK.
WOULD YOU COULD YOU IN THE RAIN?
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT IN THE RAIN.
NOT IN THE DARK. NOT ON A TRAIN.
NOT IN A CAR. NOT IN A TREE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM, YOU SEE.
NOT IN A HOUSE. NOT IN A BOX.
NOT WITH A MOUSE. NOT WITH A FOX.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM HERE OR THERE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM ANYWHERE!
YOU DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM?
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
COULD YOU, WOULD YOU, WITH A GOAT?
I WOULD NOT, COULD NOT WITH A GOAT!
WOULD YOU, COULD YOU, ON A BOAT?
I COULD NOT, WOULD NOT, ON A BOAT.
I WILL NOT, WILL NOT, WITH A GOAT.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM IN THE RAIN.
NOT IN THE DARK! NOT IN A TREE!
NOT IN A CAR! YOU LET ME BE!
I DO NOT LIKE THEM IN A BOX.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM WITH A FOX.
I WILL NOT EAT THEM IN A HOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM WITH A MOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM HERE OR THERE.
I DO NOT LIKE THEM ANYWHERE!
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM!
I DO NOT LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM.
YOU DO NOT LIKE THEM. SO YOU SAY.
TRY THEM! TRY THEM! AND YOU MAY.
TRY THEM AND YOU MAY, I SAY.
sAM! IF YOU LET ME BE,
I WILL TRY THEM. YOU WILL SEE.
(... and he tries them ...)
SAY! I LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM!
I DO! I LIKE THEM, SAM-I-AM!
AND I WOULD EAT THEM IN A BOAT.
AND I WOULD EAT THEM WITH A GOAT...
AND I WILL EAT THEM, IN THE RAIN.
AND IN THE DARK. AND ON A TRAIN.
AND IN A CAR. AND IN A TREE.
THEY ARE SO GOOD, SO GOOD, YOU SEE!
SO I WILL EAT THEM IN A BOX.
AND I WILL EAT THEM WITH A FOX.
AND I WILL EAT THEM IN A HOUSE.
AND I WILL EAT THEM WITH A MOUSE.
AND I WILL EAT THEM HERE AND THERE.
SAY! I WILL EAT THEM ANYWHERE!
I DO SO LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU, SAM I AM
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-05 10:03:49
But yeah, ideally a state provides us the greatest equality while reducing conflict to a minimum. Ideally...
Unfortunately for the poor in the US, this most certainly not the case.
(from earlier in the thread)
upi version
Why would someone plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit?
You have to put yourself in their place and imagine trying to make your case with no resources, no money, no intimate knowledge of the law, a court appointed attorney fresh out of law school with no interest in helping you at all..
And in the best case scenario you're up against a crack team of some of the best attorneys, prosecutors, investigators, district attorney and the entire police force in that particular county. With almost unlimited resources. and each and every one of them has dedicated their lives to putting you behind bars.
If the crime you are being accused of is a federal crime... /scoff
Your chances of winning are somewhere around ZERO
And this is right about the time even atheists start praying for a miracle....and/or cop a plea deal.
You are completely outnumbered, out gunned, out spent, out resourced in every conceivable way. You are ***.
Screwed, glued and tattooed.
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-02-05 10:20:42
Stop scaring me, I didn't do anything!! *cries*
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-05 10:38:59
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By Jetackuu 2016-02-05 11:24:48
Not to even mention our extremely high incarceration rate. Which largely consists of the poor and minorities (obviously some overlap).
The courts/police have worked the system to make it easy to put poor people behind bars, it's disgusting.
By Altimaomega 2016-02-05 11:46:26
full text for everyone who hasn't gotten to this book in reading class yet
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
Nik just went full Cruz!
no intimate knowledge of the law Who's at fault here? Not like this stuff is a secret...
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-05 11:57:00
no intimate knowledge of the law Who's at fault here? Not like this stuff is a secret... What he means is having the desire to actually learn.
Then again, it's Bush's the person's fault.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-05 14:13:59
that the odds are hopelessly stacked against anyone that goes up against the state in a court of law?
that the poor are woefully uneducated, not only in matters such as credit card/loan interest but also the law?
that minorities and poor are treated unfairly?
me
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-05 14:19:36
that the poor are woefully uneducated, not only in matters such as credit card/loan interest but also the law? And who's fault is that?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-05 14:22:21
that the poor are woefully uneducated, not only in matters such as credit card/loan interest but also the law? And who's fault is that?
MINE!
I'm the me in my post, it's all my fault.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-05 14:23:34
that the poor are woefully uneducated, not only in matters such as credit card/loan interest but also the law? And who's fault is that?
MINE!
I'm the me in my post, it's all my fault. Whatever you say, Atlas.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-05 14:24:14
that the odds are hopelessly stacked against anyone that goes up against the state in a court of law?
I'm certainly not the one saying we need more laws. Perhaps we should be weeding out bad laws and making our justice system simpler and more sane.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-05 14:26:19
Not like this stuff is a secret
ok then. how many laws are there in the united states of america?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-05 14:28:59
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-02-05 14:30:57
Not like this stuff is a secret ok then. how many laws are there in the united states of america? Far too many.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-02-05 14:31:15
Not like this stuff is a secret
ok then. how many laws are there in the united states of america? Impossible to count
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-05 14:39:49
ok then. how many laws are there in the united states of america?
Perhaps we should be weeding out bad laws and making our justice system simpler and more sane.
By Artemicion 2016-02-05 14:45:36
Perhaps we should be weeding out bad laws and making our justice system simpler and more sane.
I agree with this up to a degree. And the way I see it is, a vast majority of laws documented are simply there in the obscure happenstance that someone falls under prosecution of them so the book can be thrown at them. Similar to how cell phone instruction booklets will include an addendum telling you not to microwave your phone. While to most of us that seems to be redundant and stupid, I'm sure someone out there did it, and tried to cry foul to the manufacturer about it cause it didn't explicitly tell you not to.
The real matter at hand is how laws are enforced, more so than their countless pages of obscurity, redundancy or otherwise.
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-05 14:51:54
Which falls under the second part of my sentence.
making our justice system simpler and more sane.
All laws are worthless unless enforced by competence.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-05 15:23:10
ok then. how many laws are there in the united states of america?
Perhaps we should be weeding out bad laws and making our justice system simpler and more sane.
No hold on.
You said Who's at fault here? Not like this stuff is a secret..
if it's not a secret then how many laws are there?
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By Altimaomega 2016-02-05 18:30:28
ok then. how many laws are there in the united states of america?
Perhaps we should be weeding out bad laws and making our justice system simpler and more sane.
No hold on.
You said Who's at fault here? Not like this stuff is a secret..
if it's not a secret then how many laws are there?
Like I said, It's not secret. You are free to look them up at your leisure. I'm sure as hell not going to get in an argument about how many laws exists as that is not only not worth my time, it is different for every state.
All laws are worthless unless enforced by competence. This right here is what you should put your focus on. If the laws we have actually got enforced we would have a lot less need for "more laws" and could put more time and energy into getting "worthless laws" off the books.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-06 06:37:52
Perhaps we should be weeding out bad laws and making our justice system simpler and more sane.
if it were that simple, then why is your buddy LaVoy Finicum dead?
you claim the laws aren't being enforced. I think he (LaVoy Finicum) would disagree with your assesmant...
do you understand my point now?
we aren't going to weed out any laws, EVER. In fact we are going to do just the opposite. we added 50,000 more new laws last year.
none of the candidates running for president or any other political office are running on a platform of removing laws.
now... why do you suppose that is?
we love the laws, they make us feel safe and we keep demanding more. and if you are the one that gets caught breaking them... well... It sucks to be you then, don't it. better luck next life.
or I liked this one "whose fault is that!?" it's not my fault!, you cry, I didn't do it. I'm not responsible....
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-06 06:56:04
I wonder which one of your "worthless laws" you would remove to stop this from happening
it sucks to be her too
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2016-02-06 09:52:54
I wonder which one of your "worthless laws" you would remove to stop this from happening
it sucks to be her too
We should probably quit giving high school dropouts a gun, a crown victoria, and full lisence to *** with the populace.
Police used to be more than tax collection agents with a hard-on for violence...
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-02-06 10:24:34
We should probably quit giving high school dropouts a gun, a crown victoria, and full license to *** with the populace.
.
idk... seems seemed like she was kind of annoying...
By Altimaomega 2016-02-06 11:17:34
if it were that simple, then why is your buddy LaVoy Finicum dead? Because the federal government is breaking laws? Why is this hard?
you claim the laws aren't being enforced. I think he (LaVoy Finicum) would disagree with your assesmant... Yeah, I'm sure he would. Getting murdered probably sucks.
do you understand my point now? NO, must be because you had to burn your degree.
we aren't going to weed out any laws, EVER. In fact we are going to do just the opposite. we added 50,000 more new laws last year. Not with people thinking the way you do.
none of the candidates running for president or any other political office are running on a platform of removing laws. Do I really need to quote every candidate that said they are burning the ACA to the ground?
we love the laws, they make us feel safe and we keep demanding more. Only really stupid people are demanding more laws.
or I liked this one "whose fault is that!?" it's not my fault!, you cry, I didn't do it. I'm not responsible.... Huh..
I wonder which one of your "worthless laws" you would remove to stop this from happening Is this really a question?
you're probably breaking the law right now
In the now locked gun thread I was trying to have a discussion about laws and their impact... So why not make it it's own thread and carry it over here!
"These people have made many rules that the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule." Sitting Bull
“Behold, the Spring has come; the earth has received the embraces of the sun and we shall soon see the results of that love!
Every seed is awakened and so has all animal life. It is through this mysterious power that we too have our being, and we therefore yield to our neighbors, even our animal neighbors, the same right as ourselves, to inhabit this land.
Yet, hear me, people, we have now to deal with another race – small and feeble when our fathers first met them but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possession is a disease with them. These people have made many rules that the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
They claim this mother of ours, the earth, for their own and fence their neighbors away; they deface her with their buildings and their refuse. The nation is like a spring freshet that overruns its banks and destroys all that are in its path.
We cannot dwell side by side. Only seven years ago we made a treaty by which we were assured that the buffalo country should be left to us forever. Now they threaten to take that away from us. My brothers, shall we submit or shall we say to them: 'First kill me before you take possession of my land”
― Sitting Bull
So let's get into it. Whether it's gun laws or speed limits, every day we create more laws that few follow.... and whether or not you "get away with" breaking laws is typically decided by how much money you have. (*See Affluenza Teen)
What good are laws that regulate the caliber of a bullet or the size of a magazine when those that have no respect for laws are breaking one of the most fundamental and harshly punished laws already, MURDER. Who do we imagine would abide by these additional laws we consider writing?
What law ever stopped a crime from happening or undid the horror of it's impact?
Do laws and rules make you feel safe? If laws don't stop a crime from happening what is their purpose? Perhaps they exist only to create a recourse for revenge against those that break them, are unlucky enough to get caught and then can't afford to buy their way out of trouble.
tl;dr locks only keep people without tools out...justice is the whim of a judge...and other mad ramblings of a deranged lunatic.
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