|
Madison bans discrimination against atheists
Seraph.Ramyrez
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 11:36:33
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Are we talking about America?
I assumed so.
Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-05-04 11:40:00
Can we all at least acknowledge that most of the participants on this forum probably have a laxed attitude toward religion or lack there of in day-to-day life, and these discussions are exaggerated/exacerbated by this condensed, little microcosm of opinions?
(Not specifically directed at you, Ramy.)
Oh, make no mistake, I fully acknowledge I go over-the-top here ideologically sometimes. I try to moderate myself a bit more these days, with varying amounts of success.
But yeah, it's an inescapable truth of internet forums; you can rally as hard as you want for your cause -- no matter what it is -- by virtue of relative anonymity.
I know. I'm just getting impatient with scrolling through two or three pages of commentary that I read as nasally, whiny, fourteen-year-olds sniping and carrying on with...
"Well, 'so-and-so' said, "Blah!"
"Well, 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' said 'A', 'B' and 'C', so they're typical of 'ABC'."
"'X' said this and that! I'm calling a mod!"
It seems as though everyone has a pre-made list and are ticking off boxes according to stereotypes. Sifting through all this to find a substantial read... :/
(No, I'm not exempt of it with certain material sometimes.)
[+]
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 11:40:44
We're already killing people for not agreeing with our beliefs...
Without going too far into the "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" concept, who are we currently killing who didn't kill/try to kill our citizens or allies first based on their own fervent beliefs?
You mean besides the people who were defending their homeland from us as invaders (liberators)? We support dozens of para-military groups at any given time with weapons and money, we sponsor coups and bully other countries into actions... Our imperialist policies cause the deaths of thousands (maybe more) of people the world over who didn't pose a threat at all, let alone already attacked us.
For clarification, the belief I'm talking about is our view of representative democracy.
[+]
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 11:41:30
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The best part of waking up Is folgers in your cup! Once worked for a place back in the US where Folgers was too classy/expensive for the office brew.
Have to say, it tasted much better in comparison to the crap they used.
[+]
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 11:43:02
For clarification, the belief I'm talking about is our view of representative democracy.
To actually clarify, you mean "Do what we want you to do".
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-04 11:46:09
Office brew.
Hotel Coffee.
Choose your Satanic coffee.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-05-04 11:46:18
I know. I'm just getting impatient with scrolling through two or three pages of commentary that I read as nasally, whiny, fourteen-year-olds sniping and carrying on with...
"Well, 'so-and-so' said, "Blah!"
"Well, 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' said 'A', 'B' and 'C', so they're typical of 'ABC'."
"'X' said this and that! I'm calling a mod!"
It seems as though everyone has a pre-made list and are ticking off boxes according to stereotypes. Sifting through all this to find a substantial read... :/
(No, I'm not exempt of it with certain material sometimes.)
wtf are you talking about? I failed algebra.
[+]
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 11:57:57
I know. I'm just getting impatient with scrolling through two or three pages of commentary that I read as nasally, whiny, fourteen-year-olds sniping and carrying on with...
"Well, 'so-and-so' said, "Blah!"
"Well, 'X', 'Y' and 'Z' said 'A', 'B' and 'C', so they're typical of 'ABC'."
"'X' said this and that! I'm calling a mod!"
It seems as though everyone has a pre-made list and are ticking off boxes according to stereotypes. Sifting through all this to find a substantial read... :/
(No, I'm not exempt of it with certain material sometimes.)
wtf are you talking about? I failed algebra. We're all up into tricknometry here.
Seraph.Ramyrez
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 12:03:41
We're already killing people for not agreeing with our beliefs...
Without going too far into the "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" concept, who are we currently killing who didn't kill/try to kill our citizens or allies first based on their own fervent beliefs?
You mean besides the people who were defending their homeland from us as invaders (liberators)? We support dozens of para-military groups at any given time with weapons and money, we sponsor coups and bully other countries into actions... Our imperialist policies cause the deaths of thousands (maybe more) of people the world over who didn't pose a threat at all, let alone already attacked us.
For clarification, the belief I'm talking about is our view of representative democracy.
It's just hard for me to justify sitting back and letting bad things happen because "oh, it's not our problem, that's how they choose to live".
[+]
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 12:11:23
We're already killing people for not agreeing with our beliefs...
Without going too far into the "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" concept, who are we currently killing who didn't kill/try to kill our citizens or allies first based on their own fervent beliefs?
You mean besides the people who were defending their homeland from us as invaders (liberators)? We support dozens of para-military groups at any given time with weapons and money, we sponsor coups and bully other countries into actions... Our imperialist policies cause the deaths of thousands (maybe more) of people the world over who didn't pose a threat at all, let alone already attacked us.
For clarification, the belief I'm talking about is our view of representative democracy.
It's just hard for me to justify sitting back and letting bad things happen because "oh, it's not our problem, that's how they choose to live".
I don't necessarily agree, but if you're going to stick your nose in every crevice that presents itself, you have to own up to the results, good or bad.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 12:18:05
We're already killing people for not agreeing with our beliefs...
Without going too far into the "eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" concept, who are we currently killing who didn't kill/try to kill our citizens or allies first based on their own fervent beliefs?
You mean besides the people who were defending their homeland from us as invaders (liberators)? We support dozens of para-military groups at any given time with weapons and money, we sponsor coups and bully other countries into actions... Our imperialist policies cause the deaths of thousands (maybe more) of people the world over who didn't pose a threat at all, let alone already attacked us.
For clarification, the belief I'm talking about is our view of representative democracy.
It's just hard for me to justify sitting back and letting bad things happen because "oh, it's not our problem, that's how they choose to live". There's quite a few areas of the world we do exactly that.
If we actually got involved in areas where bad things happen, because bad things happened, then you would have a better point.
Seraph.Ramyrez
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 12:21:45
If we actually got involved in areas where bad things happen, because bad things happened, then you would have a better point.
We do some. Not enough.
I'm still not sure why the world seems to be dragging its collective feet about ISIS or Boko Haram.
Not enough money in it, apparently. >:(
Lakshmi.Aelius
VIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Aelius 2015-05-04 12:23:55
The concept I live by is: "If it doesn't affect me in a noticeable way, I don't care about it."
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-04 12:26:25
The concept I live by is: "If it doesn't affect me in a noticeable way, I don't care about it." So there!
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 12:28:54
If we actually got involved in areas where bad things happen, because bad things happened, then you would have a better point.
We do some. Not enough.
I'm still not sure why the world seems to be dragging its collective feet about ISIS or Boko Haram.
Not enough money in it, apparently. >:(
Not necessarily, it's more that they can sit back and enjoy the benefits of someone else paying for it. Look at countries like Germany that have modern infrastructure and energy grids, look at Sweden and Finland with their hugely successful public programs, France and it's high speed rail systems, etc. All of that money they don't have to spend on military because we do it for them. It's been 70 years, Europe can row it's own boat, we should be spending enough to protect ourselves from any aggressor AT HOME and take a few hundred billion of the dollars we spend protecting Belgium from the Nazi's every year on our infrastructure.
(I'm aware we don't spend hundreds of billions on Belgium)
Seraph.Ramyrez
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 12:29:08
The concept I live by is: "If it doesn't affect me in a noticeable way, I don't care about it."
I keep trying.
Never seems to work.
Seraph.Ramyrez
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 12:31:04
AT HOME and take a few hundred billion of the dollars we spend protecting Belgium from the Nazis every year on our infrastructure.
I think Belgium can take him. Just a hunch.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 12:31:43
AT HOME and take a few hundred billion of the dollars we spend protecting Belgium from the Nazis every year on our infrastructure.
I think Belgium can take him. Just a hunch.
Exactly my point.
Seraph.Ramyrez
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 12:33:04
I'm not against spending less where we're really not needed.
In fact, I'm all for it!
Just maybe if we're going to pretend we're trying to help, let's do some real helping.
Start by ridding the world of cowardly terrorist regimes using religion as an excuse to try to take an evolutionary step backward.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-04 12:37:50
The devil is in the details. How do you 'rid' the world of a global jihadist presence preying upon every disenfranchised soul looking to take up arms against the decadent West? Hell you don't even need to be disenfranchised, just willing to join the cause. Or willing to accept their flavor of Islam.
Death and mass execution flavored. Yum.
Bomb ISIS into oblivion, engage in every barbarous act of war, spend trillions on a war and you wind up just like the drug war - with alot of corpses. Considering our outsourcing methods of fighting wars, you wind up giving the enemy weapons to engage in perpetual warfare.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-04 12:40:11
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »How do you 'rid' the world of a global jihadist presence preying upon every disenfranchised soul looking to take up arms against the decadent West? That's easy. Instill their culture and economy with positive outlook while slowly demonizing the religious presence and showing what a negative influence that religious presence is to both the cultural and economic aspects of that society.
Now, doing that without overplaying one's hand is another thing entirely.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 12:46:32
If we actually got involved in areas where bad things happen, because bad things happened, then you would have a better point.
We do some. Not enough.
I'm still not sure why the world seems to be dragging its collective feet about ISIS or Boko Haram.
Not enough money in it, apparently. >:(
Not necessarily, it's more that they can sit back and enjoy the benefits of someone else paying for it. Look at countries like Germany that have modern infrastructure and energy grids, look at Sweden and Finland with their hugely successful public programs, France and it's high speed rail systems, etc. All of that money they don't have to spend on military because we do it for them. It's been 70 years, Europe can row it's own boat, we should be spending enough to protect ourselves from any aggressor AT HOME and take a few hundred billion of the dollars we spend protecting Belgium from the Nazi's every year on our infrastructure.
(I'm aware we don't spend hundreds of billions on Belgium) Not sure if you are being facetious, but the US certainly has (and has had) plenty of money to modernize its infrastructure.
What it lacks is organized public individual will to do so.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-05-04 12:47:45
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The devil is in the details. How do you 'rid' the world of a global jihadist presence preying upon every disenfranchised soul looking to take up arms against the decadent West? Stop treating criminal activities as military ones?
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-05-04 12:48:58
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » you wind up giving the enemy weapons to engage in perpetual warfare.
unless that was the plan from the start.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-04 12:49:50
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » you wind up giving the enemy weapons to engage in perpetual warfare.
unless that was the plan from the start. Hey, if you are going to create perpetual warfare, might as well make a buck doing so.
Brings a new meaning in double dealing.
Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-05-04 12:51:13
Since we've moved into this topic of helping/policing the world I'll post this that came out a few days ago. This is directed at "peacekeeping" activities and the byproducts that occur which are swept under the rug, by many nations.
UN aid worker suspended for leaking report on child abuse by French troops
Quote: A senior United Nations aid worker has been suspended for disclosing to prosecutors an internal report on the sexual abuse of children by French peacekeeping troops in the Central African Republic.
Sources close to the case said Anders Kompass passed the document to the French authorities because of the UN’s failure to take action to stop the abuse. The report documented the sexual exploitation of children as young as nine by French troops stationed in the country as part of international peacekeeping efforts.
2006 incident
UN troops face child abuse claims
Quote: Children have been subjected to rape and prostitution by United Nations peacekeepers in Haiti and Liberia, a BBC investigation has found.
Girls have told of regular encounters with soldiers where sex is demanded in return for food or money.
A senior official with the organisation has accepted the claims are credible.
The UN has faced several scandals involving its troops in recent years, including a DR Congo paedophile ring and prostitute trafficking in Kosovo.
The assistant secretary-general for peacekeeping operations acknowledges that sexual abuse is widespread.
Important issue:
Quote: Under UN regulations, military personnel cannot be prosecuted in the country where they are serving, and it is up to the courts in their home countries to prosecute crimes committed.
Sexual abuse and prostitution increases in a country where peacekeeping missions are taking place.
Quote: The issue with the UN is that peacekeeping operations unfortunately seem to be doing the same thing that other militaries do. Even the guardians have to be guarded
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-05-04 12:52:19
we'll *** bomb you straight into democracy!
[+]
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-04 12:56:49
If we actually got involved in areas where bad things happen, because bad things happened, then you would have a better point.
We do some. Not enough.
I'm still not sure why the world seems to be dragging its collective feet about ISIS or Boko Haram.
Not enough money in it, apparently. >:(
Not necessarily, it's more that they can sit back and enjoy the benefits of someone else paying for it. Look at countries like Germany that have modern infrastructure and energy grids, look at Sweden and Finland with their hugely successful public programs, France and it's high speed rail systems, etc. All of that money they don't have to spend on military because we do it for them. It's been 70 years, Europe can row it's own boat, we should be spending enough to protect ourselves from any aggressor AT HOME and take a few hundred billion of the dollars we spend protecting Belgium from the Nazi's every year on our infrastructure.
(I'm aware we don't spend hundreds of billions on Belgium) Not sure if you are being facetious, but the US certainly has (and has had) plenty of money to modernize its infrastructure.
What it lacks is organized public individual will to do so.
Mostly the former, but even at our current budgetary levels, we could easily shift some money around and push forward. We don't have any truly progressive economic policies or a party willing to push them. We have the guns and military party and the other guns and military party. The only thing that separates them is social policies the government has no business dictating.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20130
By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-05-04 12:59:10
That's easy. Instill their culture and economy with positive outlook while slowly demonizing the religious presence and showing what a negative influence that religious presence is to both the cultural and economic aspects of that society..
Oh hell yeah, it's working like gangbusters in baltimore and st louis....
>.>
Seraph.Ramyrez
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1918
By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-04 12:59:22
Because apparently war/combat victors will claim their spoils no matter what, and apparently we can't evolve past part of those spoils being free sexual access to anything in that country with an vagina opening to stick their willy into.
Quote: Madison bans discrimination against atheists, non-religious
MADISON, Wis. — While conservatives in Indiana and Arkansas were explaining last month why their new religious objections laws weren't invitations to discriminate against gays, the leaders of Wisconsin's capital city were busy protecting the rights of another group: atheists.
In what is believed to be the first statute of its kind in the United States, Madison banned discrimination against the non-religious on April 1, giving them the same protections afforded to people based on their race, sexual orientation and religion, among other reasons.
It's hardly surprising that such a statute would originate in Madison, an island of liberalism in a conservative-leaning state and the home of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. But the ordinance's author, Anita Weier, said it didn't arise from an actual complaint about alleged discrimination based on a lack of religious faith.
"It just seems to me that religion has spread into government more than I feel comfortable with," said Weier, who left the council after the statute passed. "It just occurred to me that religion was protected, so non-religion should be, too."
She said it also had nothing to do with what was happening in Indiana and Arkansas, which rolled back their religious objections laws amid heavy criticism that they were meant to give legal cover to people who cite religious reasons for discriminating against gays.
Although there was no dissent when the City Council passed its new statute, some question the need to protect non-believers in liberal Madison from discrimination in the areas of housing, employment and services. Among them is Julaine Appling, the president of Wisconsin Family Action.
"I don't understand why they would add this to that litany of protections in Madison, of all places," she said. "I thought this was an April Fools' joke."
If any minority group deserves further protections in Madison, which embraces its unofficial motto of "77 square miles surrounded by reality," it's conservative groups like hers, said Appling. For example, she pointed to the City Council's attempts last year to create buffer zones to keep protesters away from abortion clinics, which the U.S. Supreme Court later deemed unconstitutional in a Massachusetts case.
Zach Brandon, president of the Madison Chamber of Commerce, said he hasn't heard city business owners express concern about the ordinance, but that's likely because it "doesn't really do anything."
Brandon said expanding the equal opportunities ordinance to include more protected categories could make it obsolete.
Atheists and other non-believers, though, say the statute marks an important step forward for those who aren't religious.
"I think Madison is way ahead of the curve," said Todd Stiefel, the president of Openly Secular, which helps non-religious people become open about their absence of faith.
Stiefel said people who tell their employers or family members that they are not religious face rejection and harassment. He said he's heard from atheists who were fired the day after sharing their non-religious views with their employers or disinherited by their parents after opening up about their lack of faith.
"It boils down to the misinformation and prejudice that gets passed down generation to generation. People have been raised being told that atheists are evil and they eat babies and they can't be trusted." Said Stiefel, adding that he thinks it will be quite a while before another city follows Madison's lead.
Patrick Elliott, a Freedom From Religion Foundation attorney, said the city that's also home to the University of Wisconsin has recently seen an increase in religiously-owned rental housing. While it had not yet created a conflict, the foundation wants to be sure there could be no discrimination, he said.
"Whether someone could have brought a case, we don't know," Elliott said. "It seemed that way, but we didn't have any precedent to support that."
Even though her ordinance passed without objection, Weier said her fellow council members seemed reluctant to embrace her idea or connect their name to it. She also said timing played a large role in her decision to propose the ordinance.
"If I'd been running again, I don't think I would have brought it forward," Weier said. "I think there's discrimination against atheists."
source
|
|