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Are All Terrorists Muslims? It’s Not Even Close
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-01-22 12:58:55
-Nobody implies that the "split" happened because of the US.
-Split != fighting, killing, ergo war.
-the "Shi'a" referred to in your post and the one predominantly called "Shi'a" today are entirely different groups.
and the proof of your idiotic claim is WHERE!?So I take it that's the only part you "politely" disagreed with?
And you're demanding proof of a claim while you didn't provide any for yours?
If you knew anything about Twelvers you'd have a clue. Try to comprehend what's written on wikipedia better than that.
It's interesting that your only "contributions" so far are nothing but childish drivel.
your mom
By Bloodrose 2015-01-22 13:09:00
-Nobody implies that the "split" happened because of the US.
-Split != fighting, killing, ergo war.
-the "Shi'a" referred to in your post and the one predominantly called "Shi'a" today are entirely different groups.
and the proof of your idiotic claim is WHERE!?So I take it that's the only part you "politely" disagreed with?
And you're demanding proof of a claim while you didn't provide any for yours?
If you knew anything about Twelvers you'd have a clue. Try to comprehend what's written on wikipedia better than that.
It's interesting that your only "contributions" so far are nothing but childish drivel.
your mom YOUR DAD
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Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-01-22 13:10:10
-Nobody implies that the "split" happened because of the US.
-Split != fighting, killing, ergo war.
-the "Shi'a" referred to in your post and the one predominantly called "Shi'a" today are entirely different groups.
and the proof of your idiotic claim is WHERE!?So I take it that's the only part you "politely" disagreed with?
And you're demanding proof of a claim while you didn't provide any for yours?
If you knew anything about Twelvers you'd have a clue. Try to comprehend what's written on wikipedia better than that.
It's interesting that your only "contributions" so far are nothing but childish drivel. Well, since you asked, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Shi%27ism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia%E2%80%93Sunni_relations
There's quite a bit of evidence and sources to say that friction between them is not new, and it is currently ongoing.
That isn't to say that the US didn't throw fuel on flames in Iran and Iraq, and should share the blame for some particular divisions in areas of the world, but by no means all.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-01-22 13:11:26
By Bloodrose 2015-01-22 13:16:55
Nikolce curls his mustache with nosegold!
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-01-22 13:25:39
I stubbornly refuse to fall for the "these aren't the droids you are looking for" ploy...
Back on topic....
I invite everyone to read about the IRA (Irish Republican Army)
How did we stop them from killing innocent people?
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-01-22 13:35:26
I stubbornly refuse to fall for the "these aren't the droids you are looking for" ploy...
Back on topic....
I invite everyone to read about the IRA (Irish Republican Army)
How did we stop them from killing innocent people?
Oh, that's easy. The Cranberries were sent in to spook old Liz, right?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-01-22 13:39:24
I lol'd!
YouTube Video Placeholder
but come to think of it... that's so crazy it just might work...
By Nazrious 2015-01-22 13:50:24
that is all, carry on.
Edit: I actually like that song. lol
Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-01-22 13:56:37
I lol'd!
YouTube Video Placeholder
but come to think of it... that's so crazy it just might work...
Damn it, Nik! You know what? With your admission of guilt with Croce, I'm going to add that crash with that Kraut, Mountbatten! (Battenberg, if you're nasty!) You time-travelling vagabond! I bet you snatched some of Liz's corgies and duct-taped nail bombs to the tune of...
YouTube Video Placeholder
That has to be the reason behind this perma-face...
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By Nazrious 2015-01-22 14:00:51
I lol'd!
YouTube Video Placeholder
but come to think of it... that's so crazy it just might work...
Damn it, Nik! You know what? With your admission of guilt with Croce, I'm going to add that crash with that Kraut, Mountbatten! (Battenberg, if you're nasty!) You time-travelling vagabond! I bet you snatched some of Liz's corgies and duct-taped nail bombs to the tune of...
YouTube Video Placeholder [/spoiler]
That has to be the reason behind this perma-face...
She does not seem amused.
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By Bloodrose 2015-01-22 14:02:42
That's the new "I am not amused!" face.
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Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-01-22 14:06:53
Not to diminish the significant contributions of the cranberries or anything...
but there was an effort to make all irish people responsible for the actions of the IRA and secondly we also went after the churches and other organizations that were sending the IRA money.
of course if you wikipedia you will learn there is a new ira claiming responsibility for the killing of a policeman... accounts are varied but it may be time to call Dolores O'Riordan out of retirement
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-01-22 14:14:11
Veering back on topic, I wonder if it's the proximity to the Middle East that allots the retention of more steadfast, orthodox idea of Islam in Europe. (Not saying that this accounts for all.)
Is it because the US doesn't have the same proximity or population density that we see more moderate Muslims since everyone is somewhat more dispersed?
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-01-22 14:21:50
I'd be willing to bet the extremism all stems from economic issues.
it's far easier to get desperate people to do your bidding.
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Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-01-22 14:26:32
Veering back on topic, I wonder if it's the proximity to the Middle East that allots the retention of more steadfast, orthodox idea of Islam in Europe. (Not saying that this accounts for all.)
Is it because the US doesn't have the same proximity or population density that we see more moderate Muslims since everyone is somewhat more dispersed?
I'm pretty sure the type of Muslims who immigrate to the US on the large are more educated, have more money and are thus more open to liberal ideas versus who ends up in Europe. Quick google-fu says Lebanese lead the pack on immigration to the US.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-22 14:28:16
Veering back on topic, I wonder if it's the proximity to the Middle East that allots the retention of more steadfast, orthodox idea of Islam in Europe. (Not saying that this accounts for all.)
Is it because the US doesn't have the same proximity or population density that we see more moderate Muslims since everyone is somewhat more dispersed? Is there a more orthodox clinging to Islam in Europe or is it just that the orthodox members won't shut their damned mouths?
Here in the US, I suspect it's a combination of two factors. Well, three. First, we don't have quite as many Muslim folks here. Second, we've got 20+ years of simmering hostility towards them keeping a lot of them on edge and on the down-low. Third, our culture is rather different from that of Europe, so the sort of person who immigrates and integrates here may be different from the sort who'd immigrate and integrate into France or Germany.
That third point also carries the question of if they're integrating. Illegal immigrants to the US from Latin America have been a problem exactly because they don't want to integrate. Ditto many of the Somali refugees (among many others) who have been relocated here. When you don't want to be a part of the country you're in (but are happy to suckle at the benefits extended to you), it's not difficult to get your tail in a knot and become more orthodox/radicalized as a result.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-01-22 14:30:20
I'd be willing to bet the extremism all stems from economic issues.
it's far easier to get desperate people to do your bidding.
Which is why ISIS is finding themselves lots of maladjusted, unemployed youth to recruit to their cause. The religion just feeds an egotrip that you're in the right.
They confirm your fears you've been screwed, remind you of the 'golden days' of Islam and pour tons of blame on the Jews/Europeans then pitch that you too can be an hero like Muhammad. (where Muhammad is merely a reflection of you) All you have to do is execute your fellow Muslims, sack towns, throw people from buildings and become a monster.
Applications are: Open
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 14:56:35
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Veering back on topic, I wonder if it's the proximity to the Middle East that allots the retention of more steadfast, orthodox idea of Islam in Europe. (Not saying that this accounts for all.)
Is it because the US doesn't have the same proximity or population density that we see more moderate Muslims since everyone is somewhat more dispersed?
I'm pretty sure the type of Muslims who immigrate to the US on the large are more educated, have more money and are thus more open to liberal ideas versus who ends up in Europe. Quick google-fu says Lebanese lead the pack on immigration to the US. While it's true, it's a good thing to note that the wave of Muslims who came to France (for example) after the Algerian war are usually the most respectful when it comes to being open minded. They're the last people you'll see in the streets complaining about drawings.
These people built every single building, house, bus stop of the country in the last 50 years, people have been shitting on their beliefs but they have never shat the bed when it comes to behaving.
However, the newer generations with their double nationalities feel that being French is an insult, a shame. Those are the ones that are indoctrinated and end up shooting journalists. Mohamed Mera and the Kouachi brothers are a good example.
I believe a country like Germany has Turkish people over people from Maghreb, they may have a different experience from France.
It's not easy to immigrate to the US, this goes for anyone, whether you're from Italy or Brazil, so you can easily say that the Muslims in the US aren't the same that go to the UK or France. But all in all, they all want the same thing from what I understand: better life situation.
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Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2015-01-22 15:00:46
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Veering back on topic, I wonder if it's the proximity to the Middle East that allots the retention of more steadfast, orthodox idea of Islam in Europe. (Not saying that this accounts for all.)
Is it because the US doesn't have the same proximity or population density that we see more moderate Muslims since everyone is somewhat more dispersed?
I'm pretty sure the type of Muslims who immigrate to the US on the large are more educated, have more money and are thus more open to liberal ideas versus who ends up in Europe. Quick google-fu says Lebanese lead the pack on immigration to the US. While it's true, it's a good thing to note that the wave of Muslims who came to France (for example) after the Algerian war are usually the most respectful when it comes to being open minded. They're the last people you'll see in the streets complaining about drawings.
These people built every single building, house, bus stop of the country in the last 50 years, people have been shitting on their beliefs but they have never shat the bed when it comes to behaving.
However, the newer generations with their double nationalities feel that being French is an insult, a shame. Those are the ones that are indoctrinated and end up shooting journalists. Mohamed Mera and the Kouachi brothers are a good example.
I believe a country like Germany has Turkish people over people from Maghreb, they may have a different experience from France.
It's not easy to immigrate to the US, this goes for anyone, whether you're from Italy or Brazil, so you can easily say that the Muslims in the US aren't the same that go to the UK or France. But all in all, they all want the same thing from what I understand: better life situation.
Yup, and I do wonder how come we have more issue with those that are born here than those who migrated here back then
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-22 15:12:05
Yup, and I do wonder how come we have more issue with those that are born here than those who migrated here back then That's an old problem with most immigrant populations. They're born and raised in a family that, though they integrated, still want to maintain their traditions. Then they go out into the world and see the difference. Some second-generation kids attach to the "new" culture, some attach to the "old," both tend to polarize rather obnoxiously because, well, we're talking about teenagers and young adults who are expected to establish an identity. It's easier to identify as "Ahmed the Frenchman" or "Ahmed the Muslim" than "Ahmed with a host of varied interests who can't be easily pigeon-holed."
My family has only been in the US for about a century, but my grandparents all immigrated here when they were children. That seems to have been what kept things stable for my parents: their parents (my grandparents) remembered the old country but didn't cling for dear life to it the way my great-grandparents did.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 15:19:05
The first generation came here to work, to make money, have a family and live humbly. They also wanted to flee their misery, for some of them. They're these old Muslims you can find anywhere in the country that usually are drinking mint tea at every corner of your city's heart or the typical Muslim part of the city. At least that's my experience in Marseille, Lyon and Paris.
I know some people from Algeria who are teachers in universities and they simply go between France and Algeria, they enjoy both countries equally. Mind you, these people are all over 40, they're part of the 2nd generation, which was already mixed in opinion.
I think people nowadays want an identity, they want to be labeled. They'll say they're Algerian even though it's only their origin and they're actually French (only, for some) citizens. They need to feel special, being French is bland, it's common, it has no taste and means being "a dirty French/white".
Being white and/or French is seen as negative for them and they make sure you don't mistake them for either. They are then angry to see their big brother become a policeman. They're angry at this poor guy who becomes a policeman to support his whole family, that guy buying them clothes and paying for their school they don't even go to. And this, just because he's a policeman.
I grew up in the middle of all that, I can understand part of the anger these people have, but their rejection of the French nationality and the country itself makes no sense, really. These people simply lack any kind of respect, which is surprising seeing the first generation. I have no idea why they are like that, why they think it's cool to steal/rape/beat/kill for a sandwich while their father taught them that going to school and having a job, any job would make them proud and make them proper citizens.
I really don't get it. They have amazing parents who fled their countries to give them everything and they reject it all. They are victim of a lot of racism and such, that's true and shouldn't be ignored, so there is a good reason why they're angry. But still, I know so many Muslims who were from those ***ghettos and ended up being millionaires or simply very respectable human beings. They went through all that racism and ***and became what every single of them should want to be.
But it's not just Muslims anyway, your little Thomas, French for 6 generations is following the same extremist path. It's a generation issue rather than an issue specific to Muslims.
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2015-01-22 15:52:48
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Veering back on topic, I wonder if it's the proximity to the Middle East that allots the retention of more steadfast, orthodox idea of Islam in Europe. (Not saying that this accounts for all.)
Is it because the US doesn't have the same proximity or population density that we see more moderate Muslims since everyone is somewhat more dispersed?
I'm pretty sure the type of Muslims who immigrate to the US on the large are more educated, have more money and are thus more open to liberal ideas versus who ends up in Europe. Quick google-fu says Lebanese lead the pack on immigration to the US.
While it's true, it's a good thing to note that the wave of Muslims who came to France (for example) after the Algerian war are usually the most respectful when it comes to being open minded. They're the last people you'll see in the streets complaining about drawings.
These people built every single building, house, bus stop of the country in the last 50 years, people have been shitting on their beliefs but they have never shat the bed when it comes to behaving.
However, the newer generations with their double nationalities feel that being French is an insult, a shame. Those are the ones that are indoctrinated and end up shooting journalists. Mohamed Mera and the Kouachi brothers are a good example.
I believe a country like Germany has Turkish people over people from Maghreb, they may have a different experience from France.
It's not easy to immigrate to the US, this goes for anyone, whether you're from Italy or Brazil, so you can easily say that the Muslims in the US aren't the same that go to the UK or France. But all in all, they all want the same thing from what I understand: better life situation.
What's interesting is that there have been waves of Turk immigration since WWII in Germany, leaving at least three generations to be sufficiently acclimated in some families' cases. Turkish immigrants seem to be the most moderate, when taking into consideration the civil unrest in Turkey not too long ago.
I'm not at all surprised by what's going on in Dresden, though. I remember my cousins warning me and being overly cautious of people of Middle-Eastern origin in Frankfurt when we were younger. Which seems silly now.
One time, while I was in college, we went bar-hopping with a couple of buddies whose parents were Indian immigrants. It's hysterical when some random, drunk automatically equates brown people with "towel-head" then runs smack-dab into a pole. Justice and instant gratification, BTW. (That's what we're working with here, folks!) Damn it all if you refer to a Hindu as a Muslim and vice-versa. LOL!
EDIT: Do I need to change my flag? :/
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 15:55:11
My Muslim friend was often thought to be an Hindu in London. He didn't like that at all.
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By Blazed1979 2015-01-22 17:01:00
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »The first generation came here to work, to make money, have a family and live humbly. They also wanted to flee their misery, for some of them. They're these old Muslims you can find anywhere in the country that usually are drinking mint tea at every corner of your city's heart or the typical Muslim part of the city. At least that's my experience in Marseille, Lyon and Paris.
I know some people from Algeria who are teachers in universities and they simply go between France and Algeria, they enjoy both countries equally. Mind you, these people are all over 40, they're part of the 2nd generation, which was already mixed in opinion.
I think people nowadays want an identity, they want to be labeled. They'll say they're Algerian even though it's only their origin and they're actually French (only, for some) citizens. They need to feel special, being French is bland, it's common, it has no taste and means being "a dirty French/white".
Being white and/or French is seen as negative for them and they make sure you don't mistake them for either. They are then angry to see their big brother become a policeman. They're angry at this poor guy who becomes a policeman to support his whole family, that guy buying them clothes and paying for their school they don't even go to. And this, just because he's a policeman.
I grew up in the middle of all that, I can understand part of the anger these people have, but their rejection of the French nationality and the country itself makes no sense, really. These people simply lack any kind of respect, which is surprising seeing the first generation. I have no idea why they are like that, why they think it's cool to steal/rape/beat/kill for a sandwich while their father taught them that going to school and having a job, any job would make them proud and make them proper citizens.
I really don't get it. They have amazing parents who fled their countries to give them everything and they reject it all. They are victim of a lot of racism and such, that's true and shouldn't be ignored, so there is a good reason why they're angry. But still, I know so many Muslims who were from those ***ghettos and ended up being millionaires or simply very respectable human beings. They went through all that racism and ***and became what every single of them should want to be.
But it's not just Muslims anyway, your little Thomas, French for 6 generations is following the same extremist path. It's a generation issue rather than an issue specific to Muslims.
I personally think its hiphop and ghetto-thug culture.
Kids memorizing lyrics instead of caring for academics.
The age of spectacle and superficiality. When they get to the work force (those that do get to the work force) they want to get paid for adding no value.
Or, to summarize:
YouTube Video Placeholder
By Blazed1979 2015-01-22 17:03:08
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I'd be willing to bet the extremism all stems from economic issues.
it's far easier to get desperate people to do your bidding.
Which is why ISIS is finding themselves lots of maladjusted, unemployed youth to recruit to their cause. The religion just feeds an egotrip that you're in the right.
They confirm your fears you've been screwed, remind you of the 'golden days' of Islam and pour tons of blame on the Jews/Europeans then pitch that you too can be an hero like Muhammad. (where Muhammad is merely a reflection of you) All you have to do is execute your fellow Muslims, sack towns, throw people from buildings and become a monster.
Applications are: Open
They won't idolize Mohamed if they're combatative and emphasize on war and the use of violence. You're thinking Khalid Ibn Al Waleed.
Also the Lebanese outside of Lebanon outnumber the ones inside the country.
Last time I checked(2006) there were 20 million lebanese outside Lebanon and only 5 million inside the country.
I bring up these numbers because the Lebanese are hardly passive... they had the bloodiest civil war I can remember.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 17:35:26
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »The first generation came here to work, to make money, have a family and live humbly. They also wanted to flee their misery, for some of them. They're these old Muslims you can find anywhere in the country that usually are drinking mint tea at every corner of your city's heart or the typical Muslim part of the city. At least that's my experience in Marseille, Lyon and Paris.
I know some people from Algeria who are teachers in universities and they simply go between France and Algeria, they enjoy both countries equally. Mind you, these people are all over 40, they're part of the 2nd generation, which was already mixed in opinion.
I think people nowadays want an identity, they want to be labeled. They'll say they're Algerian even though it's only their origin and they're actually French (only, for some) citizens. They need to feel special, being French is bland, it's common, it has no taste and means being "a dirty French/white".
Being white and/or French is seen as negative for them and they make sure you don't mistake them for either. They are then angry to see their big brother become a policeman. They're angry at this poor guy who becomes a policeman to support his whole family, that guy buying them clothes and paying for their school they don't even go to. And this, just because he's a policeman.
I grew up in the middle of all that, I can understand part of the anger these people have, but their rejection of the French nationality and the country itself makes no sense, really. These people simply lack any kind of respect, which is surprising seeing the first generation. I have no idea why they are like that, why they think it's cool to steal/rape/beat/kill for a sandwich while their father taught them that going to school and having a job, any job would make them proud and make them proper citizens.
I really don't get it. They have amazing parents who fled their countries to give them everything and they reject it all. They are victim of a lot of racism and such, that's true and shouldn't be ignored, so there is a good reason why they're angry. But still, I know so many Muslims who were from those ***ghettos and ended up being millionaires or simply very respectable human beings. They went through all that racism and ***and became what every single of them should want to be.
But it's not just Muslims anyway, your little Thomas, French for 6 generations is following the same extremist path. It's a generation issue rather than an issue specific to Muslims.
I personally think its hiphop and ghetto-thug culture.
Kids memorizing lyrics instead of caring for academics.
The age of spectacle and superficiality. When they get to the work force (those that do get to the work force) they want to get paid for adding no value.
Or, to summarize:
YouTube Video Placeholder I was actually going to talk about it, as you are right in a way.
In my experience (I've paid attention to US hip hop but not as much as French, so I can't really talk in depth when it comes to US), there are two kinds of hip hops and said ghetto thug culture. The second generation (and third) was born when hip hop started being important in the US/France. Many French bands went to the US to have featurings with US rappers, so you could say the French youth was exposed to it just like the US was.
The lyrics were always blunt as ***, but the message was usually hopeful, it was telling the youth to stop making mistake ("bad boy put your gun down before you end up in jail or break someone's dreams and your own" etc). We had bands from every city sending this message their own way without any rivalry, each bands/artist was working in the same direction as the others. Show the whole country how miserable they make the youth feel while telling said youth to not fall and become what they want them to be: failures, criminals and so on.
On one side, you have that culture that tells young people that killing, stealing and so on is fine. That you need to make the state and its citizens pay. It tells them that having different color of skin means that people will hate you, or that you should hate them. Whatever, really, it teaches them to feel attacked at all time, it breeds bad mood, atmosphere and mentalities.
And then, straight from the very same apartment as the previous paragraph, you have those Arabs, black people, white, East Europe, anything, really, that teach you that despite everything being against you in life, you need to raise your head and do your best to stay clean, humble and to make your own path through life while respecting the rules, laws and more importantly, the people.
On one side you have the hip hop that tells you to burn that car down your building, on the other side you have hip hop that tells you that this car is your neighboor's and this guy is paid minimum wage, can barely pay his rent and needs his car to go to work, just like your parents.
Personally, I come from a "gangster" place in my city where drug traffic and other revenge killing is popular. People listen to both sides but they realize that being clean and the good guy requires more work, a thicker skin and patience. So they take the short path, they are down the building covering drug dealers, making 300$ per day instead of going to school, they're 10 years old. Why bother being like dad and bowing to people while being a mechanic and working on cars when I make three times his salary following this culture's teachings?
Obviously, I don't support their choice of doing bad things because "society pushes them to do so", but at the same time, I understand them. As one of the hip hop bands I'm referring to said:
Quote: Tout jeunes
On leur apprend que rien ne fait un homme à part les francs
Very young we teach them that a man's worth is his money Quote: Ravi d'un rien parce qu'habitué à peu
Small things make me happy as I'm used to not have much As much as they're following the wrong path, society push them to. These people are just weak minded humans, broken because of their everyday life and what society does to them.
If you tell someone he's useless every day of his life for 20 years, and explain to him every day that he'll never amount to anything unless he suddenly becomes rich (without saying how, studies are never mentioned, they're told they can't study) and bang girls while wearing gold everywhere, it shouldn't come of as a surprise that they end up revolting.
I just don't understand why they can't absorb the same value as their parents despite all this. Their parents went through the same ***, after all.
By Blazed1979 2015-01-22 17:46:05
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »The first generation came here to work, to make money, have a family and live humbly. They also wanted to flee their misery, for some of them. They're these old Muslims you can find anywhere in the country that usually are drinking mint tea at every corner of your city's heart or the typical Muslim part of the city. At least that's my experience in Marseille, Lyon and Paris.
I know some people from Algeria who are teachers in universities and they simply go between France and Algeria, they enjoy both countries equally. Mind you, these people are all over 40, they're part of the 2nd generation, which was already mixed in opinion.
I think people nowadays want an identity, they want to be labeled. They'll say they're Algerian even though it's only their origin and they're actually French (only, for some) citizens. They need to feel special, being French is bland, it's common, it has no taste and means being "a dirty French/white".
Being white and/or French is seen as negative for them and they make sure you don't mistake them for either. They are then angry to see their big brother become a policeman. They're angry at this poor guy who becomes a policeman to support his whole family, that guy buying them clothes and paying for their school they don't even go to. And this, just because he's a policeman.
I grew up in the middle of all that, I can understand part of the anger these people have, but their rejection of the French nationality and the country itself makes no sense, really. These people simply lack any kind of respect, which is surprising seeing the first generation. I have no idea why they are like that, why they think it's cool to steal/rape/beat/kill for a sandwich while their father taught them that going to school and having a job, any job would make them proud and make them proper citizens.
I really don't get it. They have amazing parents who fled their countries to give them everything and they reject it all. They are victim of a lot of racism and such, that's true and shouldn't be ignored, so there is a good reason why they're angry. But still, I know so many Muslims who were from those ***ghettos and ended up being millionaires or simply very respectable human beings. They went through all that racism and ***and became what every single of them should want to be.
But it's not just Muslims anyway, your little Thomas, French for 6 generations is following the same extremist path. It's a generation issue rather than an issue specific to Muslims.
I personally think its hiphop and ghetto-thug culture.
Kids memorizing lyrics instead of caring for academics.
The age of spectacle and superficiality. When they get to the work force (those that do get to the work force) they want to get paid for adding no value.
Or, to summarize:
YouTube Video Placeholder I was actually going to talk about it, as you are right in a way.
In my experience (I've paid attention to US hip hop but not as much as French, so I can't really talk in depth when it comes to US), there are two kinds of hip hops and said ghetto thug culture. The second generation (and third) was born when hip hop started being important in the US/France. Many French bands went to the US to have featurings with US rappers, so you could say the French youth was exposed to it just like the US was.
The lyrics were always blunt as ***, but the message was usually hopeful, it was telling the youth to stop making mistake ("bad boy put your gun down before you end up in jail or break someone's dreams and your own" etc). We had bands from every city sending this message their own way without any rivalry, each bands/artist was working in the same direction as the others. Show the whole country how miserable they make the youth feel while telling said youth to not fall and become what they want them to be: failures, criminals and so on.
On one side, you have that culture that tells young people that killing, stealing and so on is fine. That you need to make the state and its citizens pay. It tells them that having different color of skin means that people will hate you, or that you should hate them. Whatever, really, it teaches them to feel attacked at all time, it breeds bad mood, atmosphere and mentalities.
And then, straight from the very same apartment as the previous paragraph, you have those Arabs, black people, white, East Europe, anything, really, that teach you that despite everything being against you in life, you need to raise your head and do your best to stay clean, humble and to make your own path through life while respecting the rules, laws and more importantly, the people.
On one side you have the hip hop that tells you to burn that car down your building, on the other side you have hip hop that tells you that this car is your neighboor's and this guy is paid minimum wage, can barely pay his rent and needs his car to go to work, just like your parents.
Personally, I come from a "gangster" place in my city where drug traffic and other revenge killing is popular. People listen to both sides but they realize that being clean and the good guy requires more work, a thicker skin and patience. So they take the short path, they are down the building covering drug dealers, making 300$ per day instead of going to school, they're 10 years old. Why bother being like dad and bowing to people while being a mechanic and working on cars when I make three times his salary following this culture's teachings?
Obviously, I don't support their choice of doing bad things because "society pushes them to do so", but at the same time, I understand them. As one of the hip hop bands I'm referring to said:
Quote: Tout jeunes
On leur apprend que rien ne fait un homme à part les francs
Very young we teach them that a man's worth is his money Quote: Ravi d'un rien parce qu'habitué à peu
Small things make me happy as I'm used to not have much As much as they're following the wrong path, society push them to. These people are just weak minded humans, broken because of their everyday life and what society does to them.
If you tell someone he's useless every day of his life for 20 years, and explain to him every day that he'll never amount to anything unless he suddenly becomes rich (without saying how, studies are never mentioned, they're told they can't study) and bang girls while wearing gold everywhere, it shouldn't come of as a surprise that they end up revolting.
I just don't understand why they can't absorb the same value as their parents despite all this. Their parents went through the same ***, after all.
Well good deeds don't get reported or news coverage. There's just too much good to report it all.
Bad acts are the exception and are reported and focused on.
I'm not accusing all youth who listen to hiphop as being brainwashed. But I think there are enough of them out there to be noticed.
Hiphop, the bad kind, really does teach bad values and worst yet, it pretends to be wisdom.
Have you ever had an idiot quote tupac to you in a conversation?
You could be talking about the *** Hadron collider and some fool will be like "tupac said...(insert lyrics)"
That's all that is floating up in their heads with some of these people... I used to be into 2pac and biggi and cypress hill...back in 1996 when I was literally 15 years old... I have some friends on facebook from back then, who are unemployed and still wearing their pants around their ankles and talking like they were *** CARLITO BRIGANTE!
Sorry back on topic (end of rant)
If people have a chip on their shoulders, they're going to project their internal subjective paranoia into reality. They will perceive everything as confirmation of their suspicions.
And there's a huge difference between politically motivated Rock like Rage against the Machine and narcissistic trash like NAS and 2pac. So yes, I think this is isolated to hiphop and not other music genres, but I could be wrong.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-01-22 17:50:49
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »I just don't understand why they can't absorb the same value as their parents despite all this. Their parents went through the same ***, after all. The question to ask, and this applies to any culture that has embraced overtly violent and criminal media, is why that media has been embraced.
Here in the US, extremely punitive measures (often with racist undertones) were put in place after the huge rash of crime in the '70s and '80s. Depressingly, the crime rate fell at roughly the same time and authorities falsely correlated the two (it actually had to do with a drop in birth rates that began in the mid-'60s), so that encouraged further oppressive actions. As neighborhoods became safer but it became more dangerous to be in a cop's line-of-sight, urban culture followed suit.
But why did those who were largely unaffected by the draconian changes or, worse still, those who felt they benefited by them opt to buy into a counter-culture of violence? Some of it appears to be the standard reason for youth counter-culture: do something to piss off my parents. But it seems facile to lay it all on that.
I suspect more has to do with the relentless march of soulless capitalism, marketing and monetizing aspects of urban youth culture and the messages of materialism, violence, and anger coming along for the ride. If Apple was advertising using "Cop Killer" as its background music, would anyone be surprised that every kid had it loaded into his playlist?
Though, it's hardly like this is a new thing. The speed with which it can happen has been accelerated by changes in technology, but just a quick glance through the many, many revolutions in France and other parts of western Europe would show that us-versus-them tensions are nothing new.
Perhaps we forget that WWII encouraged an entire generation in Europe (and Japan) to settle down? Given this is a forum for a Japanese game, I'd assume most are familiar with anime, especially some of the classics from the '80s. Grave of the Fireflies and AKIRA are both protests against the rising youth culture that rejected its WWII-era parents' stoicism, not that most people realize that.
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-01-22 17:55:32
Well good deeds don't get reported or news coverage. There's just too much good to report it all.
Bad acts are the exception and are reported and focused on.
I'm not accusing all youth who listen to hiphop as being brainwashed. But I think there are enough of them out there to be noticed.
Hiphop, the bad kind, really does teach bad values and worst yet, it pretends to be wisdom.
Have you ever had an idiot quote tupac to you in a conversation?
You could be talking about the *** Hadron collider and some fool will be like "tupac said...(insert lyrics)"
That's all that is floating up in their heads with some of these people... I used to be into 2pac and biggi and cypress hill...back in 1996 when I was literally 15 years old... I have some friends on facebook from back then, who are unemployed and still wearing their pants around their ankles and talking like they were *** CARLITO BRIGANTE!
Sorry back on topic (end of rant)
If people have a chip on their shoulders, they're going to project their internal subjective paranoia into reality. They will perceive everything as confirmation of their suspicions.
And there's a huge difference between politically motivated Rock like Rage against the Machine and narcissistic trash like NAS and 2pac. So yes, I think this is isolated to hiphop and not other music genres, but I could be wrong. Yeah, I've met people who live their life through hip hop lyrics. I'm fine when they take inspiration from lyrics that make the day brighter for them and the people around them, though.
I met a girl who spent all her time listening to everything she could find hip hop related. She'd only remember the bright side of songs and would always try to emulate this in her life. Was a nice sight, one of those that remind me that hip hop could change people's life if they had a different mindset when listening to it.
You've got a point, yeah. There is a huge difference between an "All I want" from All systems go and the ***you mention.
Quote: What percentage of terror attacks in the United States and Europe are committed by Muslims? Guess. Nope. Guess again. And again...
“Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.” How many times have you heard that one? Sure, we heard Fox News’s Brian Kilmeade say it, but to me, that was simply part of the Fox News plan to make their viewers dumber, as we saw again this past weekend when its terrorism “expert” Steve Emerson was caught fabricating the story that Birmingham, England, is closed to non-Muslims. But more alarmingly, even some reasonable people have uttered this statement.
And that comment is often followed up by the question: Why don’t we see Christian, Buddhist, or Jewish terrorists?
Obviously, there are people who sincerely view themselves as Muslims who have committed horrible acts in the name of Islam. We Muslims can make the case that their actions are not based on any part of the faith but on their own political agenda. But they are Muslims, no denying that.
However, and this will probably shock many, so you might want to take a breath: Overwhelmingly, those who have committed terrorist attacks in the United States and Europe aren’t Muslims. Let’s give that a moment to sink in.
Now, it’s not your fault if you aren’t aware of that fact. You can blame the media. (Yes, Sarah Palin and I actually agree on one thing: The mainstream media sucks.)
So here are some statistics for those interested. Let’s start with Europe. Want to guess what percent of the terrorist attacks there were committed by Muslims over the past five years? Wrong. That is, unless you said less than 2 percent.
As Europol, the European Union’s law-enforcement agency, noted in its report released last year, the vast majority of terror attacks in Europe were perpetrated by separatist groups. For example, in 2013, there were 152 terror attacks in Europe. Only two of them were “religiously motivated,” while 84 were predicated upon ethno-nationalist or separatist beliefs.
Or what about the (dare I mention them) Jewish terrorists? Per the 2013 State Department’s report on terrorism, there were 399 acts of terror committed by Israeli settlers.
We are talking about groups like France’s FLNC, which advocates an independent nation for the island of Corsica. In December 2013, FLNC terrorists carried out simultaneous rocket attacks against police stations in two French cities. And in Greece in late 2013, the left-wing Militant Popular Revolutionary Forces shot and killed two members of the right-wing political party Golden Dawn. While over in Italy, the anarchist group FAI engaged in numerous terror attacks including sending a bomb to a journalist. And the list goes on and on.
Have you heard of these incidents? Probably not. But if Muslims had committed them do you think you our media would’ve covered it? No need to answer, that’s a rhetorical question.
Even after one of the worst terror attacks ever in Europe in 2011, when Anders Breivik slaughtered 77 people in Norway to further his anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, and pro-“Christian Europe” agenda as he stated in his manifesto, how much press did we see in the United States? Yes, it was covered, but not the way we see when a Muslim terrorist is involved. Plus we didn’t see terrorism experts fill the cable news sphere asking how we can stop future Christian terrorists. In fact, even the suggestion that Breivik was a “Christian terrorist” was met with outrage by many, including Fox News’s Bill O’Reilly.
Have you heard about the Buddhist terrorists? Well, extremist Buddhists have killed many Muslim civilians in Burma, and just a few months ago in Sri Lanka, some went on a violent rampage burning down Muslim homes and businesses and slaughtering four Muslims.
Or what about the (dare I mention them) Jewish terrorists? Per the 2013 State Department’s report on terrorism, there were 399 acts of terror committed by Israeli settlers in what are known as “price tag” attacks. These Jewish terrorists attacked Palestinian civilians causing physical injuries to 93 of them and also vandalized scores of mosques and Christian churches.
Back in the United States, the percentage of terror attacks committed by Muslims is almost as miniscule as in Europe. An FBI study looking at terrorism committed on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 found that 94 percent of the terror attacks were committed by non-Muslims. In actuality, 42 percent of terror attacks were carried out by Latino-related groups, followed by 24 percent perpetrated by extreme left-wing actors.
And as a 2014 study by University of North Carolina found, since the 9/11 attacks, Muslim-linked terrorism has claimed the lives of 37 Americans. In that same time period, more than 190,000 Americans were murdered (PDF).
In fact in 2013, it was actually more likely Americans would be killed by a toddler than a terrorist. In that year, three Americans were killed in the Boston Marathon bombing. How many people did toddlers kill in 2013? Five, all by accidentally shooting a gun.
But our media simply do not cover the non-Muslim terror attacks with same gusto. Why? It’s a business decision. Stories about scary “others” play better. It’s a story that can simply be framed as good versus evil with Americans being the good guy and the brown Muslim as the bad.
Honestly, when is the last time we heard the media refer to those who attack abortion clinics as “Christian terrorists,” even though these attacks occur at one of every five reproductive health-care facilities? That doesn’t sell as well. After all we are a so-called Christian nation, so that would require us to look at the enemy within our country, and that makes many uncomfortable. Or worse, it makes them change the channel.
That’s the same reason we don’t see many stories about how to reduce the 30 Americans killed each day by gun violence or the three women per day killed by domestic violence. But the media will have on expert after expert discussing how can we stop these scary brown Muslims from killing any more Americans despite the fact you actually have a better chance of being killed by a refrigerator falling on you.
Look, this article is not going to change the media’s business model. But what I hope it does is cause some to realize that not all terrorists are Muslims. In fact, they are actually a very small percent of those that are. Now, I’m not saying to ignore the dangers posed by Islamic radicals. I’m just saying look out for those refrigerators.
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