Possible Use For PLD?

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
Version 3.1
New Items
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Paladin » Possible use for PLD?
Possible use for PLD?
First Page 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
 Ramuh.Lorzy
Offline
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
user: Lorzy
Posts: 1356
By Ramuh.Lorzy 2011-02-24 03:36:59
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Need some kind of job trait that slowly drains the emnity of everyone within a 20 yalm radius!

PLD needs a job ability with a 2 hour duration and 30 second recharge that enables you to give out oranges and Gatorade to your fellow adventurers. That way PLDs can feel like they are contributing to the party and are worth the spot.
all that came to my mind when i read this was "need a dispenser here"
 Leviathan.Niniann
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Ninian
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 03:38:44
Link | Quote | Reply
 
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2011-02-24 03:41:12
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Ramuh.Lorzy
Offline
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
user: Lorzy
Posts: 1356
By Ramuh.Lorzy 2011-02-24 03:43:23
Link | Quote | Reply
 
clearly pld needs to be improved by making them ride on my little ponies
 Leviathan.Niniann
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Ninian
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 03:44:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Leviathan.Niniann said:

One of the most useful units in the game!



:<

Ramuh.Lorzy said:
clearly pld needs to be improved by making them ride on my little ponies

Yes. :<
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-02-24 03:45:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You're at least reading what I'm saying, but I don't think you're quite grasping my point.

Asura.Alexstaifter said:
Of course if you look at this as one piece, it doesn't seem like a good idea, but If you take it as a whole to the whole thing I posted, it works out a lot better. (It is easy to pick pieces and find faults, like single puzzle pieces. But If you make the whole puzzle, everything is clear.)

It's a multifaceted issue so I'm dealing with the facets and hoping you have the sense to see how they interact in the big picture. So far not so good but I'll keep trying because I'm bored.

Quote:
And I would say no, of course it wouldn't be full time, or if it is, we just make it a job trait "Cover" and you have to be infront of the player who has hate at the time (Just like the Ability), and it wouldn't make the hate system pointless, as hate could still change between DDs, healers and nukers, but the paladin would need to move towards that party member to block for them (which is the whole point of paladin in the first place, so it wouldnt be really be game breaking.)
So basically it doesn't do anything of value. If hate can still change (and I mean really, forcefully change - not change for the two seconds it takes for a tank to move and hit the mob to recap hate) with this mechanic, you might as well accept that fact and go with DPS. If it's an issue such as hate reset, I'd point you towards THF (Accomplice/Collaborator) since it not only builds hate, but drains the hate of the person targeted. It logically follows that you thus give PLD a great JA and create situations where this JA is highly desirable, but at this point you've built encounters around having a single job and thus traded one problem for another.

Quote:
In this game the point of PLD is to keep the monster on them, to protect everyone else. but if it does not have the tools to do so, it won't function as it is meant to.
It does have the tools to protect others. As I've mentioned, the issue lies with FFXI's enmity mechanics rather than PLD's defensive abilities.

Quote:
And people wanna complain about balance in sense of damage,
You're oversimplifying my argument.

Quote:
every melee job can do decent to high damage, and pld can barely hit the decent marker, get it between decent and High, and it will get it's job done.
No. I reiterate that the best DD is the best tank provided the backline is not at risk. Once survivability is taken care of, the next significant measuring stick is killspeed. There is a balance (ohohoho) between damage output and survivability (a complexity in my argument that you have overlooked). PLD fails miserably in the latter and nothing requires PLD's survivability in the former (additionally, you can argue that other tanks are at least as a survivable as a non-Ochain PLD in many/all situations), so it fails in its intended role.

To recap: PLD is a mid-tier healer (reliant on Cure IV), low-tier DD, and mid-tier tank (good design, but other jobs perform better due to basic mechanics). As it is not particularly desirable for any of these aspects, it is rendered completely undesirable (XI rewards specialization rather than mediocrity). As such, we strive to create a situation where it is desired for one of the above. If we increase its healing ability, it clashes with WHM (the designated main healer) or DNC (the frontline healer/DD). If we increase its DD capabilities, it clashes with the entire DD roster and must either still fail (as Enlight failed to sufficiently buff PLD as a DD) or become competitive in a DD sense and thus replace any DD that is inferior to PLD as a tank (creating more problems than it solves). If we increase its tanking ability such that it becomes a desired tank, we have created a situation where the fact that enmity caps is irrelevant or significantly altered other major game mechanics to save a single job, potentially forcing the use of said job. Again, this is undesirable.

If we increase any or all abilities by small amounts, it still sucks. If we make it a compelling job in any aspect, it creates more problems than it solves. You have failed to demonstrate how any of your proposals, or all of them in combination, circumvent this paradox.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2011-02-24 03:45:15
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Ramuh.Lorzy
Offline
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
user: Lorzy
Posts: 1356
By Ramuh.Lorzy 2011-02-24 03:46:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Ramuh.Lorzy said:
clearly pld needs to be improved by making them ride on my little ponies

Clearly DRGs need all of this too:

i'm a taru and i've always wanted to ride my wyvern because it's bigger than me
 Leviathan.Niniann
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Ninian
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 03:49:03
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ramuh.Lorzy said:
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Ramuh.Lorzy said:
clearly pld needs to be improved by making them ride on my little ponies

Clearly DRGs need all of this too:

i'm a taru and i've always wanted to ride my wyvern because it's bigger than me

I would so roll a DRG~
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-02-24 03:52:15
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Needs more swords in hurr.
 Leviathan.Niniann
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Ninian
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 03:54:12
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Needs more swords in hurr.

lax magic

 Bahamut.Dasva
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: dasva
Posts: 13835
By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 03:54:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Screw more swds dual weild some shields!
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-02-24 03:55:12
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Needs more swords in hurr.

lax magic

Needs more BLU in my FE.
 Leviathan.Niniann
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Ninian
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 03:57:00
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Needs more BLU in my FE.

Consolation Prize:
[+]
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2011-02-24 04:00:12
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-02-24 04:00:16
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Teleportation (kinda) is like magic, right???
 Fenrir.Enternius
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Enternius
Posts: 2464
By Fenrir.Enternius 2011-02-24 04:06:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
What up with all the dumb gifs
[+]
 Asura.Alexstaifter
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 537
By Asura.Alexstaifter 2011-02-24 04:10:35
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
You're at least reading what I'm saying, but I don't think you're quite grasping my point.

Asura.Alexstaifter said:
Of course if you look at this as one piece, it doesn't seem like a good idea, but If you take it as a whole to the whole thing I posted, it works out a lot better. (It is easy to pick pieces and find faults, like single puzzle pieces. But If you make the whole puzzle, everything is clear.)

It's a multifaceted issue so I'm dealing with the facets and hoping you have the sense to see how they interact in the big picture. So far not so good but I'll keep trying because I'm bored.

Quote:
And I would say no, of course it wouldn't be full time, or if it is, we just make it a job trait "Cover" and you have to be infront of the player who has hate at the time (Just like the Ability), and it wouldn't make the hate system pointless, as hate could still change between DDs, healers and nukers, but the paladin would need to move towards that party member to block for them (which is the whole point of paladin in the first place, so it wouldnt be really be game breaking.)
So basically it doesn't do anything of value. If hate can still change (and I mean really, forcefully change - not change for the two seconds it takes for a tank to move and hit the mob to recap hate) with this mechanic, you might as well accept that fact and go with DPS. If it's an issue such as hate reset, I'd point you towards THF (Accomplice/Collaborator) since it not only builds hate, but drains the hate of the person targeted. It logically follows that you thus give PLD a great JA and create situations where this JA is highly desirable, but at this point you've built encounters around having a single job and thus traded one problem for another.

Quote:
In this game the point of PLD is to keep the monster on them, to protect everyone else. but if it does not have the tools to do so, it won't function as it is meant to.
It does have the tools to protect others. As I've mentioned, the issue lies with FFXI's enmity mechanics rather than PLD's defensive abilities.

Quote:
And people wanna complain about balance in sense of damage,
You're oversimplifying my argument.

Quote:
every melee job can do decent to high damage, and pld can barely hit the decent marker, get it between decent and High, and it will get it's job done.
No. I reiterate that the best DD is the best tank provided the backline is not at risk. Once survivability is taken care of, the next significant measuring stick is killspeed. There is a balance (ohohoho) between damage output and survivability (a complexity in my argument that you have overlooked). PLD fails miserably in the latter and nothing requires PLD's survivability in the former (additionally, you can argue that other tanks are at least as a survivable as a non-Ochain PLD in many/all situations), so it fails in its intended role.

To recap: PLD is a mid-tier healer (reliant on Cure IV), low-tier DD, and mid-tier tank (good design, but other jobs perform better due to basic mechanics). As it is not particularly desirable for any of these aspects, it is rendered completely undesirable (XI rewards specialization rather than mediocrity). As such, we strive to create a situation where it is desired for one of the above. If we increase its healing ability, it clashes with WHM (the designated main healer) or DNC (the frontline healer/DD). If we increase its DD capabilities, it clashes with the entire DD roster and must either still fail (as Enlight failed to sufficiently buff PLD as a DD) or become competitive in a DD sense and thus replace any DD that is inferior to PLD as a tank (creating more problems than it solves). If we increase its tanking ability such that it becomes a desired tank, we have created a situation where the fact that enmity caps is irrelevant or significantly altered other major game mechanics to save a single job, potentially forcing the use of said job. Again, this is undesirable.

If we increase any or all abilities by small amounts, it still sucks. If we make it a compelling job in any aspect, it creates more problems than it solves. You have failed to demonstrate how any of your proposals, or all of them in combination, circumvent this paradox.


If you had to pick one thing from the list of options listed to make paladin "worthwhile" what would one choose?

I would think changing the game mechanics would be the safest bet, As like with WotG, DNC changed a great deal of how general party formats and even solo play is done. (Looking at a lets say ToAU era FFXI compared to a post WotG era FFXI.)
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-02-24 04:15:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Enternius said:
What up with all the dumb gifs
Fire Emblem is awesome, don't hate :<

Quote:
If you had to pick one thing from the list of options listed to make paladin "worthwhile" what would one choose?
None. I'm not willing to cause more problems than I solve. Changing game mechanics would have been the right answer long ago since it's where the problem actually lies but changing the entire enmity system this late in the game isn't really a viable solution.

DNC didn't change core mechanics, it changed playstyles. There's a significant difference.
 Leviathan.Niniann
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: Ninian
Posts: 2596
By Leviathan.Niniann 2011-02-24 04:15:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Enternius said:
What up with all the dumb gifs

When I'm bored I have a habit of shitting up threads. Let's call it a hobby. :<
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-02-24 04:16:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I still think the thread got significantly more awesome once we started talking about FE rather than lolPLD.
[+]
 Bahamut.Dasva
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: dasva
Posts: 13835
By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 04:17:51
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Niniann said:
Fenrir.Enternius said:
What up with all the dumb gifs
When I'm bored I have a habit of shitting up threads. Let's call it a hobby. :<
Bad nini bad
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2011-02-24 04:18:13
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Bahamut.Dasva
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: dasva
Posts: 13835
By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 04:19:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
I still think the thread got significantly more awesome once we started talking about FE rather than lolPLD.
Once Finalvegeta went to bed or whatever he is doing happened.
Too bad Ronson isn't in here. He could tell us how pld could tank if it subs drg and gets 30% gear haste and a million double attack with joyuese and uses abilities that give only 1 CE and no VE of hate to recover from hate resets...
[+]
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2011-02-24 04:24:22
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2011-02-24 04:27:35
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Bahamut.Dasva
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: dasva
Posts: 13835
By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-24 04:28:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
I still think the thread got significantly more awesome once we started talking about FE rather than lolPLD.
Once Finalvegeta went to bed or whatever he is doing happened.
Too bad Ronson isn't in here. He could tell us how pld could tank if it subs drg and gets 30% gear haste and a million double attack with joyuese and uses abilities that give only 1 CE and no VE of hate to recover from hate resets...
You forgot to mention how he would do it solo.
But if he's solo how can he prove his ability to keep/maintain hate!?!
[+]
 Sylph.Hitetsu
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Hitetsu
Posts: 2617
By Sylph.Hitetsu 2011-02-24 05:22:30
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Not too long ago I posted in another PLD thread that it wouldn't take much to have PLD includable in the game. It would require a small change in game mechanics (or more specifically, Defence), but nothing overly difficult. Copy/paste spoilered!
 Gilgamesh.Yukichibi
Offline
Server: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
user: Yukichibi
Posts: 15
By Gilgamesh.Yukichibi 2011-02-24 07:54:12
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Maybe make PLD immune to hate reset, it will make some NM easier to fight with, but still doable without it.
 Quetzalcoatl.Chairman
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Chairman
Posts: 10
By Quetzalcoatl.Chairman 2011-02-24 08:13:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
if we didn't have paladins then all those creed seals would go to waste, duh
First Page 2 3 4 5 6 7 8