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Scottish Independence (?)
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 10:50:34
Quote: Most global issues today stem from unresolved conflicts of interest from World War I and especially World War II.
You can temporary pin them down for awhile, but by doing so they just reemerge stronger than before. Sometimes they use issues that were previous thought to be resolved, even before the 20th century.
Iraq should be a clear example of this from all points of view.
The decision of George H. W. Bush to deter Hussein, rather than venture into Iraq, is probably the only smart decision a president has made in a very long time.
On a more generic scale, you can't restrict movement and trade, because you disagree with their culture, beliefs, or ideas. Or even worse, force them to comply to your standards. By doing so you only encourage them to be more rebellious. And the more you think you're trying to prevent a problem, the more you wind up causing more problems.
When that culture, beliefs, and ideas includes oppression, mistreatment, and various other human rights violations (ie: 'being a *** to others', in my vernacular), what then, in your perfect world? You just let it happen? There's no such thing as a perfect world, only your idea of one.
If it's peace and stability you're looking for, then in a sense you have to let people be.
It's kind of like the Prime Directive from Star Trek.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 10:54:02
Quote: Most global issues today stem from unresolved conflicts of interest from World War I and especially World War II.
You can temporary pin them down for awhile, but by doing so they just reemerge stronger than before. Sometimes they use issues that were previous thought to be resolved, even before the 20th century.
Iraq should be a clear example of this from all points of view.
The decision of George H. W. Bush to deter Hussein, rather than venture into Iraq, is probably the only smart decision a president has made in a very long time.
On a more generic scale, you can't restrict movement and trade, because you disagree with their culture, beliefs, or ideas. Or even worse, force them to comply to your standards. By doing so you only encourage them to be more rebellious. And the more you think you're trying to prevent a problem, the more you wind up causing more problems.
When that culture, beliefs, and ideas includes oppression, mistreatment, and various other human rights violations (ie: 'being a *** to others', in my vernacular), what then, in your perfect world? You just let it happen? There's no such thing as a perfect world, only your idea of one.
If it's peace and stability you're looking for, then in a sense you have to let people be.
It's kind of like the Prime Directive from Star Trek.
I never agreed with the Prime Directive. And neither did any of the major captains. I mean, they constantly said they did -- fervently, even -- but then they turned around and spit in its face any time they felt it was appropriate.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 10:55:04
Quote: Most global issues today stem from unresolved conflicts of interest from World War I and especially World War II.
You can temporary pin them down for awhile, but by doing so they just reemerge stronger than before. Sometimes they use issues that were previous thought to be resolved, even before the 20th century.
Iraq should be a clear example of this from all points of view.
The decision of George H. W. Bush to deter Hussein, rather than venture into Iraq, is probably the only smart decision a president has made in a very long time.
On a more generic scale, you can't restrict movement and trade, because you disagree with their culture, beliefs, or ideas. Or even worse, force them to comply to your standards. By doing so you only encourage them to be more rebellious. And the more you think you're trying to prevent a problem, the more you wind up causing more problems.
When that culture, beliefs, and ideas includes oppression, mistreatment, and various other human rights violations (ie: 'being a *** to others', in my vernacular), what then, in your perfect world? You just let it happen? There's no such thing as a perfect world, only your idea of one.
If it's peace and stability you're looking for, then in a sense you have to let people be.
It's kind of like the Prime Directive from Star Trek.
I never agreed with the Prime Directive. And neither did any of the major captains. I mean, they constantly said they did -- fervently, even -- but then they turned around and spit in its face any time they felt it was appropriate. This is true, lol.
By volkom 2014-09-11 11:01:36
I'm all for semantics but not as a form of argument. If you really are against war racism etc give real reasons why.
reasons against war racism etc:
-usually wars are only in favor of the elite few who are in power as they seek to gain more power. There may be an underline cause such as to gain access to more natural resources but the end result and loss of human life and the economic/environmental effects on the region always seem to have a significant toll. imo war shouldn't be the go-to solution to get things done.
-reason against racism~ I find it hard to believe that one race is superior to others in one way or another but I also find it hard to break away from set stereotypes because of what's broadcasted and witnessed. If only the media would stop spinning stories the way they have been and just reported the facts then we can actually start moving away from it. ~ at least in the states.
-reasons against etc...reason why i'm against etc is because it seems to go after everything. why can't it be before things? I'd like to see a supermarket with a slogan that says 'we sell etc' or something to that effect. we need to stop being racist wordist? and treating it like the *** child abbreviated word and encourage it to be moved to the front
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 11:04:26
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By volkom 2014-09-11 11:07:28
By fonewear 2014-09-11 11:08:40
The only real wars are WW2 Civil War and the War on Women.
Currently fighting for a sandwich and an abortion.
Or as I call it an abortion sandwich with extra pickles and mayo.
Fighting and dying for you country is one thing getting free birth control is another thing.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 11:17:12
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 11:22:52
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-09-11 11:25:06
good!
we don't want stupid, dumb, ole' texas anyhow!
Cerberus.Conagh
Server: Cerberus
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-09-11 11:31:38
As probably the only Scottish person to be on this forum.. This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
They have no currency.
They have no Banking System.
They are depending upon North Sea Oil for Stability (2050 it runs out) which means short terms solution - long term stupidity.
They have no infrastructure for Road Maintenance, NHS (Health Sector as this is government funded not private).
The Yes Campaign has never once yet, answered a single question and keeps making references "West Minister Abbey" its not *** about what the *** English have or have not *** done, its about wtf can we ACTUALLY DO WITH INDEPENDENCE, which is *** all.
The populous are listening with their hearts, and not thinking ***through and will ust run into a massive Economic crisis, be forced to join the EU for a bailout and just be subject to the same restrictions they were previously, but again with no stable economic system, no Banks (because The Royal Bank of Scotland have said they will leave Scotland as they are 81%~ owned by England) as will Lloyds, this leave NO BANKS in Scotland.
Yes no banks will definitely work.
FURTHER TO THIS STUPID CONCEPT all Scots will be removed from the English army, they will all be foreigners, and as such the Scottish students in England will need
Passports (which will take months if not years) for Scottish Nationality.
Greencards (Student Visas)
Pay Hiked Student Fee's for Universities in the UK (because foreign students get charged triple, I know this as I worked for a University over here).
And this is just for starters.
Whatever crackpot HONESTLY wants to live like, can do so at the same time as drown themselves for being stupid.
** End Rant **
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 11:42:55
Frankly I think a better method for all involved would be to turn the "United Kingdom" into the "United Kingdoms". Give the coutries their own autonomy in a symbolic sense and greater oversight over their own internal issues and maintain their financial ties, broader policy, and overall infrastructure.
By volkom 2014-09-11 11:47:40
put the welsh dragon on the flag
good!
we don't want stupid, dumb, ole' texas anyhow! don't mess with Texas :[
Cerberus.Conagh
Server: Cerberus
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-09-11 11:52:14
Frankly I think a better method for all involved would be to turn the "United Kingdom" into the "United Kingdoms". Give the coutries their own autonomy in a symbolic sense and greater oversight over their own internal issues and maintain their financial ties, broader policy, and overall infrastructure.
This has actually been done in Wales. And their system works.
Scotland already have some level of Autonomy (They can decide what sector gets what money and their own select rules ie: Free Prescriptions ETC).
But this isn't enough.
Anyone who votes yes or think's its a Good idea needs to be sterilized because its the dumbest ***I ever heard.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 11:56:44
Frankly I think a better method for all involved would be to turn the "United Kingdom" into the "United Kingdoms". Give the coutries their own autonomy in a symbolic sense and greater oversight over their own internal issues and maintain their financial ties, broader policy, and overall infrastructure.
This has actually been done in Wales. And their system works.
Scotland already have some level of Autonomy (They can decide what sector gets what money and their own select rules ie: Free Prescriptions ETC).
But this isn't enough.
Anyone who votes yes or think's its a Good idea needs to be sterilized because its the dumbest ***I ever heard.
As I said earlier, I understand why so many people would want to seperate, but I feel that even if it is somehow a good idea in some ways, the timing is...horrendous. As said, it's people voting with their hearts, not their heads, and that's never a recipe for success.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-09-11 11:58:01
don't tell me what to do!
if texas wasn't so lame, I wouldn't have to mock it.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 11:59:05
don't tell me what to do!
if texas wasn't so lame, I wouldn't have to mock it.
Frankly, the way Texas is constantly brought up around here -- frequently not even by the actual Texans -- is really amusing to me. Clearly it weighs on your mind, one way or the other. :p
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-09-11 12:01:36
nah, it's a running joke between zahrah & I.
I honestly dgaf about texas. no negative or positive opinions.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 12:03:24
nah, it's a running joke between zahrah & I.
I honestly dgaf about texas. no negative or positive opinions.
My point remains valid, if not to you specifically!
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-11 12:03:27
don't tell me what to do!
if texas wasn't so lame, I wouldn't have to mock it.
Frankly, the way Texas is constantly brought up around here -- frequently not even by the actual Texans -- is really amusing to me. Clearly it weighs on your mind, one way or the other. :p What do you expect with all delightful politicians from Texas?
Ragnarok.Nausi
Server: Ragnarok
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-09-11 12:04:14
Good!
If Texas ever seceded I'd move down there in a heartbeat.
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Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-11 12:05:49
Texas is the anagram of taxes, think about it!
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-11 12:05:50
Good!
If Texas ever seceded I'd move down there in a heartbeat.
You still could now and reap most of the same benefits.
Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-09-11 13:52:04
Creaucent Alazrin said: »
This is slightly off topic, but what the Hell is the point of a "crossbencher" in the House of Lords? What's their functional purpose? I could be wrong, but they have no party affiliation, right?
Cerberus.Conagh
Server: Cerberus
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-09-11 17:47:37
Creaucent Alazrin said: »
This is slightly off topic, but what the Hell is the point of a "crossbencher" in the House of Lords? What's their functional purpose? I could be wrong, but they have no party affiliation, right?
Crossbenchers (most commonly known as Law Lords) are people who have a great knowledge of the law and how it applies, and are normally very high up in the Judicial System. They do vote on things and do not need to be elected in.
Reasons: The House of lords is the Highest Court in the Land as part of the "Court of Appeal" as such any law passed here can not superseded by any other court (This was the case until we got the new High Court however in terms of pecking order I believe that the Court of Appeal still holds the Heavy Weight Title so to speak).
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Garuda.Chanti
Server: Garuda
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Posts: 11129
By Garuda.Chanti 2014-09-12 10:50:26
Good!
If Texas ever seceded I'd move down there in a heartbeat. If Texas seceded and you tried to move there they would shoot you at the border.
Nothing personal mind you. It would be open season on anyone crossing any of their borders.
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By wormfeeder 2014-09-12 11:16:01
Good!
If Texas ever seceded I'd move down there in a heartbeat.
Actually texas can secede from the union any time they wish, along with California they are actually republics unto themselves.
Fenrir.Atheryn
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-09-12 11:20:47
Well, Scotland has North Korea's support.
Quote: North Korea is feeling 'positive' about Scottish 'Yes'
Kim Jong-un is feeling positive about a Yes vote in Scotland and is looking to trade with Scotland if it gains independence, Pyongyang representatives have reportedly said.
Choe Kwan-il, managing editor of the Choson Sinbo newspaper told The Telegraph he believes independence "would be a very positive thing for Scotland".
"I believe that every person has the right to be a member of an independent nation, to have sovereignty, to live in peace and to enjoy equality," he said. "And I believe that a majority of Scots feel the same and will vote for independence."
Choson Sinbo is a Tokyo-based publication printed in both Korean and Japanese. It is published by the General Association of Korean Residents (GAKR), a pro-North Korea representative body for Koreans living in Japan. The GAKR has close ties to North Korea and is often described as the country's de-facto embassy in Japan.
Choe told the paper it has not yet reported on the referendum, but will do so when it finishes.
"North Korea is rich in natural resources and we like the taste of Scotch whisky, so we can be beneficial to each other," he added.
So Chung-on, director of the International Affairs Bureau of GAKR of Japan, said he did not know if the referendum had been reported in North Korea, but that if Scotland does become independent it "almost certainly" will.
"The result will be very important and if the Scots do vote to become independent, then North Korea will be prepared to respond to that," he said.
The people of Scotland are voting on independence on 18 September.
On Thursday, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband arrived in Scotland to campaign against succession after poll results showed the gap between yes and no supporters was narrowing.
- Independent
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-12 12:22:51
Quote: As the referendum on Scottish independence approaches, the “Yes” campaign is receiving an unexpected boost – from Russian nationalists.
Supporters of the Kremlin’s annexation of Crimea have latched on to Alex Salmond’s bid to leave Britain as a parallel to the struggle of ethnic Russians in Ukraine to break with a supposedly bullying overlord in Kiev.
With resentment running high against Britain as a crusader for tough sanctions against Moscow over its patronage of the separatist rebels in Ukraine, blogs in Russia have become flooded with calls for Scottish “freedom”. Source
Now for some good(?) news!
I'm not sure how many have been keeping up with the upcoming vote and the precedent it sets for Catalonian secessionists in Spain. I've been wondering how it could also upset Parliamentary majority, which at the moment is center-left (Labor), and could it lead to Cameron's (center-right (Conservative-Unionist)) resignation?
As it seems, I think the UK needs Scotland more than Scotland needs the UK.
Quote: It's looking like bad news for the rest of the UK's political establishment
ANDREW GRICE Author Biography POLITICAL EDITOR Monday 08 September 2014
In the two-year Scottish referendum campaign, Whitehall and Westminster have been in denial about the prospect of Scotland voting Yes to independence. Suddenly, as the opinion polls show it as a very real prospect, the London-based political establishment is anxiously thinking about the implications.
“The consequences, not just for England, but Wales and Northern Ireland, are frankly unimaginable,” one senior Whitehall official said today. This is not an obscure debate about more devolution: some MPs fear the peace process in Northern Ireland, or at least order on the streets, could be at risk, and that there could be new demands for a united Ireland. There would inevitably be calls for a stronger Welsh Assembly, more devolution to the English regions and even an English Parliament.
If Scots vote to walk out of the marriage, there is no guarantee of an amicable “velvet divorce”. Alex Salmond could afford to be conciliatory in victory. He would invite a vanquished Alistair Darling to join all-party talks to ensure a smooth transition to “independence day” in March 2016.
Yet an angry public mood in the rest of the UK, especially in England, could push the political parties into rejecting a friendly separation. Cabinet ministers already describe the SNP’s timetable as “completely unrealistic,” when there are complex issues like the Trident nuclear weapons base on the table. Speaking privately, they suspect that there would be trade-offs, and that Mr Salmond might ditch his “non-nuclear Scotland” policy in return for concessions in other areas.
But it is now dawning on MPs that a public backlash from English voters against the Scots could force the Government to take a much harder line than ministers expect. If the Scots reject enjoying the “best of both worlds” - more devolution and the security of the UK – then why should the remaining UK do them any favours during the divorce settlement? Yes campaign material as the campaign ahead of the Scottish independence referendum continues Yes campaign material as the campaign ahead of the Scottish independence referendum continues
Such pressures could force the Conservatives to take a hardline stance on the negotiations in their manifesto at next May’s general election. A Scottish breakaway would provide yet more ammunition for Ukip. If Nigel Farage demanded a tough line in the talks, the Tories might have to match it. In turn, that could put pressure on Labour to follow suit.
Who would be leading the Tories at the time? We don’t know. Mr Cameron has dismissed the idea that he would have to resign after presiding over the end of the 300-year Union. But he has to say that now. If he were to hint at anything else, it would allow the SNP to shout: “Vote Yes to kick out the Tory Prime Minister.”
Cameron critics on the Tory backbenches have already started to discuss amongst themselves whether a Yes vote next week could be the trigger for a coup against him as party leader. They would need the votes of 46 of the 304 Tory MPs to force a vote of confidence. Opinions are divided over whether this would be the right moment to strike. Some Tories want to wait until after next May’s general election. If there were a hung parliament and Mr Cameron tried to continue in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, then Tory rebels say he would be “toast”. The Better Together leader Alistair Darling campaigning in Edinburgh, where he met voters and set out his case for a No Vote in the Scottish Referendum The Better Together leader Alistair Darling campaigning in Edinburgh, where he met voters and set out his case for a No Vote in the Scottish Referendum
Would Cameron fall on his sword after a Yes vote? “I think his instinct would be to carry on and steady the ship,” said a long-standing friend. “What could save him is that the general election is not far off. But if things got really awful, and there was economic turmoil, then it might be different.”
There is already speculation in Tory circles over who might succeed Mr Cameron. The rumour mill suggests that George Osborne would be ruled out because his nuclear weapon in the referendum campaign – that Scotland could not keep the pound – backfired on the No camp, adding to Mr Salmond’s list of threats, bullying and bluffs. With Boris Johnson unlikely to return to Parliament until next May, William Hague, the Commons Leader, who led the Tories from 1997 to 2001, is seen as the most likely caretaker.
A Yes vote next week could provoke calls for next May’s general election to be delayed, on the grounds that there would be little point in electing 59 Scottish MPs for 10 months until “independence day.” That would require legislation to overturn the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act. But it might prove too controversial, as it would allow Ukip to accuse the Tories and Lib Dems of clinging on to power.
In the long run, some Labour figures fear they would struggle to win another Commons majority without their solid block of Scottish MPs - 41 at present. The gossip among Blairite MPs is that their hero could still “win” England, but that a left-leaning leader could not. A Yes vote could be very bad news for Ed Miliband.
Source.
A wee bit o' background.
Side note: I also find it funny that the birth of the next heir was announced a little prematurely in terms of unspoken pregnancy etiquette, but just in time to drum up pro-union sentiments.
New brother/sister? Ugh! Balls!
EDIT: Trying to discuss this in 'Random P&R' was probably doomed from the beginning, but it does give a little credence to our UK counter-parts being more sensible for simply avoiding that thread.
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