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October Job Adjustments
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-10-02 12:21:18
Quote: This improvement would have to heavily favour DRKs to actually fix the issues. Raising the numbers for all jobs isn't really a fix, since people will still not have a reason to bring that "squishy DRK" over the well rounded, almost broken job that is MNK rn. How exactly is Drk squishy compared to current DDs?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-10-02 12:45:38
Quote: This improvement would have to heavily favour DRKs to actually fix the issues. Raising the numbers for all jobs isn't really a fix, since people will still not have a reason to bring that "squishy DRK" over the well rounded, almost broken job that is MNK rn. How exactly is Drk squishy compared to current DDs? DRKs are only squishy when they aren't using Dread Spikes.
 Siren.Kyte
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3331
By Siren.Kyte 2014-10-02 12:48:12
TP moves are what are more liable to kill people. Last Resort (DRK's best ability) makes you more susceptible to these and Dread Spikes isn't going to help you there. Many of DRK's other signature abilities don't exactly help with this either (Souleater, Diabolic Eye).
By kithaofcerb 2014-10-02 12:50:23
Quote: This improvement would have to heavily favour DRKs to actually fix the issues. Raising the numbers for all jobs isn't really a fix, since people will still not have a reason to bring that "squishy DRK" over the well rounded, almost broken job that is MNK rn. How exactly is Drk squishy compared to current DDs?
Last Resort/Souleater/Diabolic Eye all HP or defensive stats to do more damage, and they're pretty well the only front line job that didn't get a "Max HP boost" job trait when they did that big update.
Quote: DRKs are only squishy when they aren't using Dread Spikes.
Mobs that AoE like Cracklaws, Matamata and delve bosses have attacks that do not proc dreadspikes, leading to no HP return from them. Yes, if it was something pre-adoulin attacking it that Dread Spikes procced on, they would be considerably less squishy.
 Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-10-02 12:56:34
According to urteil the way to fix drk is to give it B marksmanship instead of C and to nerf scarlet delirium!
So I assume drk is fine right now.
By kithaofcerb 2014-10-02 13:03:24
According to urteil the way to fix drk is to give it B marksmanship instead of C and to nerf scarlet delirium!
So I assume drk is fine right now.
Scarlet Delolrium could be changed to an Impetus style thing, like the more you get hit the higher your attack/magic attack (hilarious) goes? Since right now it only takes 1 source of input instead of multiple, you have to time it right before a very strong TP move that isn't going to kill you for it to be even remotely affective.
Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-10-02 13:08:53
Scarlet is fine, what you're asking would be too strong.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-10-02 13:12:52
So Drk is squishy because of Last Resort, which gives the same -defense that Berserk does which every DD uses, a JA that you shouldn't be using in any situation that squishyness matters, and another JA that you won't use on 95% of the mobs in the game?
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-02 13:13:37
drk should deal more damage than sam under similar conditions(koga staying better than liberator is reasonable, but tsuru shouldn't be shitting on rme drk)
let the higher damage taken determine which is more worthy of bringing, most content doesn't one shot anyway so just a matter of having decent stuns/healing to bring drk to anything
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-10-02 13:14:24
Wait, if Last Resort makes DRKs squishy, then wouldn't this update make WARs even more squishy?
Conquerors would be the squishiest of them all! -39% defense kindof sucks....
lol
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-10-02 13:14:54
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »(koga staying better than liberator is reasonable, but tsuru shouldn't be shitting on rme anything) ftfy
Siren.Kyte
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3331
By Siren.Kyte 2014-10-02 13:22:21
So Drk is squishy because of Last Resort, which gives the same -defense that Berserk does which every DD uses, a JA that you shouldn't be using in any situation that squishyness matters, and another JA that you won't use on 95% of the mobs in the game?
The difference is that DRK has a harder time capping attack for WS than other jobs (assuming you're using Resolution- if you're using Liberator then this isn't the case) and thus needs it more to be competitive. They are also potentially relying on it for JA haste.
As for warrior- well, they didn't explicitly say that the negative stats would be increasing incrementally as well. So just wait and see.
Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
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Posts: 2908
By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-02 13:23:55
I'm trying to think of anything here...
Maybe remove attack penalty from Resolution? Remove extreme amounts of critical defense bonus from Adoulin NMs? Are you saying that SoA mobs have notable crit def bonus that should be removed? Or suggesting they put it into the negative? Wondering because I didn't think SoA NMs had any across the board crit def.
Last Resort/Souleater/Diabolic Eye all HP or defensive stats to do more damage, and they're pretty well the only front line job that didn't get a "Max HP boost" job trait when they did that big update. Four jobs got HP buffs. 3 were tanks.(PLD/NIN/RUN) The last was WAR. So, DRK is hardly the only, or even pretty well only, frontline job that didn't get an HP boost.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-10-02 13:27:45
Quote: The difference is that DRK has a harder time capping attack for WS than other jobs (assuming you're using Resolution- if you're using Liberator then this isn't the case) and thus needs it more to be competitive. They are also potentially relying on it for JA haste. So the issue isn't that Drk is squishier, it's that Drks damage output sucks.
Siren.Kyte
Server: Siren
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Posts: 3331
By Siren.Kyte 2014-10-02 13:31:30
No, it is that its damage output partly relies on things that make it squishier. Don't be dense.
So Drk is squishy because of Last Resort, which gives the same -defense that Berserk does which every DD uses, a JA that you shouldn't be using in any situation that squishyness matters, and another JA that you won't use on 95% of the mobs in the game?
Some of the other jobs have defensive abilities (either passive or active) that make this less of a big deal. BLU has cocoon, MNK has higher HP and Mantra, NIN has shadows. That said, there are of course situations where these tools don't work well and DRK does have the option of going /NIN without being too terribly gimped if survivability is a concern on something where shadows are effective.
Server: Asura
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By Asura.Failaras 2014-10-02 13:37:51
I just think it's silly to say Drk is more squishy than any other job because they have to use Souleater to compete. That isn't an issue of defense that is an issue of offense.
Quote: Some of the other jobs have defensive abilities (either passive or active) that make this less of a big deal. BLU has cocoon, MNK has higher HP and Mantra, NIN has shadows. That said, there are of course situations where these tools don't work well and DRK does have the option of going /NIN without being too terribly gimped if survivability is a concern on something where shadows are effective. And yet everyone uses Sam, which has basically no inherent defensive abilities that Drk doesn't have access to.
Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-10-02 13:40:55
it's ok drk just got fixed, use /nin !
/nin and apoc and you're good to go !
Siren.Kyte
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3331
By Siren.Kyte 2014-10-02 13:41:01
Keep in mind that I consider Samurai to be an outlier that should probably be subject to a nerf.
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-02 13:44:23
I just think it's silly to say Drk is more squishy than any other job because they have to use Souleater to compete. That isn't an issue of defense that is an issue of offense. not really, if they can compete by using all of their available abilities they're fine offensively
Quote: And yet everyone uses Sam, which has basically no inherent defensive abilities that Drk doesn't have access to. not having to use souleater, having enough evasion to be off floor on fodder mobs(and more from light ilevel gear than heavy), and being ridiculously overpowered
the entire point of an ability like souleater is that you're sacrificing survivability for damage(i don't know why i have to say this), the fact you can do that needs to be weighted into the jobs total output.. drk is balanced based on use of souleater, it's not SE's fault you play with people who can't handle it
**all assumptions about balance are assuming souleater drk > similarly geared sam > non-souleater drk, if this is not the case(as it doesn't seem to be) an offensive patch should be done to make it so
Server: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-10-02 13:49:09
So we buff DRK, sam becomes blase and we now get to complain that DRK is OP and needs to be nerfed so DRG/MNK can attend events.
I'm no mathologist but assuming equally geared, how much is DRK losing to a SAM? Is it big enough to not be competitive or are we just in spreadsheet land where 2% differences constitute need for a MASSIVE OVERHAUL.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-10-02 13:52:05
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »I just think it's silly to say Drk is more squishy than any other job because they have to use Souleater to compete. That isn't an issue of defense that is an issue of offense. not really, if they can compete by using all of their available abilities they're fine offensively
Quote: And yet everyone uses Sam, which has basically no inherent defensive abilities that Drk doesn't have access to. not having to use souleater, having enough evasion to be off floor on fodder mobs(and more from light ilevel gear than heavy), and being ridiculously overpowered
the entire point of an ability like souleater is that you're sacrificing survivability for damage(i don't know why i have to say this), the fact you can do that needs to be weighted into the jobs total output.. drk is balanced based on use of souleater, it's not SE's fault you play with people who can't handle it
**all assumptions about balance are assuming souleater drk > similarly geared sam > non-souleater drk, if this is not the case(as it doesn't seem to be) an offensive patch should be done to make it so The point of souleater is sacrificing survivability for damage as you said, when Drk is balanced before souleater this makes sense. When drk is balanced including Souleater, this makes the job strictly worse than other jobs. Also Drk with souleater is still far worse than Sam.
Quote: I'm no mathologist but assuming equally geared, how much is DRK losing to a SAM? Is it big enough to not be competitive or are we just in spreadsheet land where 2% differences constitute need for a MASSIVE OVERHAUL. Probably around 15-20% pure DPS behind Sam not including SCs.
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-02 13:57:49
The point of souleater is sacrificing survivability for damage as you said, when Drk is balanced before souleater this makes sense. When drk is balanced including Souleater, this makes the job strictly worse than other jobs. Balancing it prior to souleater makes it:
-competitive normally
-clearly leader with souleater
-has access to stun and other debuffs
you ask too much, the best you can expect is to be able to do the most damage while using all of it's JA's to the fullest and taking on the associated death risks
Quote: Also Drk with souleater is still far worse than Sam. like to see a spreadsheet because there's been a whole lot more whining than statistic here
Server: Asura
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Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-10-02 14:04:04
Quote: Balancing it prior to souleater makes it:
-competitive normally
-clearly leader with souleater
-has access to stun and other debuffs So when it uses a JA that has high risk reward it is clearly the leader? That's the point. That's like saying War would be imbalanced if they were competitive before 1hs. Stun and other debuffs are not only super niche but will also decrease your damage below being competitive which makes it balanced.
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-02 14:09:46
Quote: Balancing it prior to souleater makes it:
-competitive normally
-clearly leader with souleater
-has access to stun and other debuffs So when it uses a JA that has high risk reward it is clearly the leader? That's the point. That's like saying War would be imbalanced if they were competitive before 1hs. Stun and other debuffs are not only super niche but will also decrease your damage below being competitive which makes it balanced. souleater should put drk in the lead
skipping a JA that adds a significant amount to both white damage and ws damage and can be up 20% should put you behind
upset about the survivability? don't go drk to that event, not that complicated
if sam skipped WSing 20% of the time, the numbers would be a whole lot different
By Heimdel 2014-10-02 14:11:26
Bismarck.Inference said: »When a job requires mythic to remain competitive with a Delve 1.0 drop I think that's kind of a red flag.
Tsurumaru is just a really well-apportioned weapon. Your statement is true for samurai too. Only Koga really beats Tsurumaru. Amano and Masamune do not.
With Haste + double March, SAM can reliably self-SC without JAs other than Zanhasso, yeah.
ccl said: I fear that the gap between mythic and non mythic dd will be a lot bigger if they don't do something about it, we might not get a tsurumaru on next ilvl :(
I would not mind seeing the mythic requirements reduced to the point where making one can seriously be considered mandatory for endgame content. Maybe, like, cut all the different currencies to a third of what they are now.
Before everybody huffs and struts around in their big boy pants on me, a major reason the game's so easy right now is that mythics are so powerful, but not attainable enough to balance content around.
They kind of did this by letting a lot of Salvage cheaters get 30k worth of alex in a week or two of farming. There are a lot of new mythics. Sadly most of them belong to cheaters.
I thought those cheaters got canned/banned?
Out of curiosity how do they even know who was doing this?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3213
By Asura.Failaras 2014-10-02 14:12:45
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »Quote: Balancing it prior to souleater makes it:
-competitive normally
-clearly leader with souleater
-has access to stun and other debuffs So when it uses a JA that has high risk reward it is clearly the leader? That's the point. That's like saying War would be imbalanced if they were competitive before 1hs. Stun and other debuffs are not only super niche but will also decrease your damage below being competitive which makes it balanced. souleater should put drk in the lead
skipping a JA that adds a significant amount to both white damage and ws damage and can be up 20% should put you behind
upset about the survivability? don't go drk to that event, not that complicated
if sam skipped WSing 20% of the time, the numbers would be a whole lot different That's exactly what I said, Souleater should put Drk in the lead. However Drk should still be viable without souleater (Sam should be viable without SCing, War should be viable without 1hs).
Siren.Kyte
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3331
By Siren.Kyte 2014-10-02 14:13:29
Out of curiosity how do they even know who was doing this?
How do they know anything? They look at logs, lol
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-02 14:18:15
Out of curiosity how do they even know who was doing this? they put a gm there for 2-3 days, tallied everyone they saw do it, and gave them all 3 day suspensions
Quote: How do they know anything? They look at logs, lol if they looked at logs, they wouldn't have missed anyone
Failaras said: That's exactly what I said, Souleater should put Drk in the lead. However Drk should still be viable without souleater (Sam should be viable without SCing, War should be viable without 1hs). drk is viable without souleater, its not like a top notch drk is losing to an eminence sam, it's just not as shiny as you want it to be
By kithaofcerb 2014-10-02 15:46:27
Quote: drk is viable without souleater, its not like a top notch drk is losing to an eminence sam, it's just not as shiny as you want it to be
If you want to go from this, SAM/MNK in eminent gear are going to dust pretty well anything else in eminent gear.
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14
By Carbuncle.Residentevilman 2014-10-02 15:48:37
I don't know if it's been asked already. But would Daken give throwing skill ups? Would be amazing, could finally cap throwing skill lol.
Quote: [dev1235] Job Adjustments
The following jobs will undergo adjustments.
Warrior
The effects of the job ability Berserk will increase in stages as the player rises in level. Physical attack will increase by 1% per stage at levels 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90, and will reach a maximum of 30% when combined with the original effects.
The effects of the job ability Defender will increase in stages as the player rises in level. Physical defense will increase by 1% per stage at levels 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90, and will reach a maximum of 30% when combined with the original effects.
Thief
Dagger skill will be raised from A to A+.
Beastmaster
Axe skill will be raised from A to A+.
Familiars summoned using the Call Beast ability will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Ninja
A new job trait, Daken, will be added.
When equipped with a shuriken, the ninja will occasionally throw it upon autoattacking.
This trait will be learned at level 25 and will increase in stages at level 40, 55, 70, and 95.
* Shuriken thrown using Daken will not be consumed.
Sange will undergo the following adjustments.
Sange (Recast time: 3 min., effect duration: 60 sec.)
Daken will always activate but consume shuriken. Increase ranged accuracy by 25.
Katana skill will be raised from A to A+.
Dragoon
Wyverns will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Summoner
A new spell will be added.
Atomos (Lv. 75, Recast time: 60 sec.)
Removes one magic effect from an enemy and grants it to friendly players within area of effect.
* Atomos has no additional blood pacts usable during Astral Flow.
A new job ability, Apogee, will be added.
Apogee (Lv. 70, Recast time: 5 min., Effect duration: 60 sec.)
Decreases the recast time on the next blood pact, but causes it to consume more MP.
The job ability Avatar's Favor will be changed.
Penalties, including physical and magic attack, will be abolished.
The avatar's perpetuation cost will increase.
Avatars will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Blue Mage
The casting time of the following spells will be decreased.
Metallic Body / Warm-Up / Amplification / Zephyr Mantle / Triumphant Roar
The effect duration of the following spells will be increased.
Memento Mori / Reactor Cool / Saline Coat / Plasma Charge / Diamondhide / Magic Barrier / Barrier Tusk / Orcish Counterstance / Nature's Meditation / Zephyr Mantle / Triumphant Roar
The MP cost of Triumphant Roar will be decreased.
The efficacy of Regeneration will be increased.
Attribute adjustments will be added to the following spells.
Tempestuous Upheaval / Rending Deluge / Enbalming Earth / Foul Water / Retinal Glare / Subduction
Sword skill will be raised from A to A+.
Puppetmaster
Hand-to-hand skill will be raised from B+ to A+.
Automatons will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Dancer
The following job abilities will undergo adjustments.
The recast time for steps will be decreased from fifteen to five seconds.
The recast time for the job ability Presto will be decreased from thirty to fifteen seconds.
The job ability Climactic Flourish will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
The job ability Striking Flourish will have its recast time decreased from 120 to thirty seconds and will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
The job ability Ternary Flourish will have its recast time decreased from 120 to forty-five seconds and will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
Dagger skill will be raised from B+ to A+.
Geomancer
A new job ability, Entrust, will be added.
Entrust (Lv. 75, Recast time: 10 min., Effect duration: 60sec.)
The next indicolure spell cast may target a party member.
The increase in pet Attack and ACC is nice. As is most 1-hand weapon skill ranking getting increased from A to A+. Avatar favor not gimping pets is long overdue.
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