Denver Students Walk Out Of School In Protest

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
Version 3.1
New Items
users online
Forum » Everything Else » Culture and Media » Denver students walk out of school in protest
Denver students walk out of school in protest
First Page 2 3 ... 8 9 10
 Bismarck.Magnuss
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 28615
By Bismarck.Magnuss 2014-09-25 14:51:32
Link | Quote | Reply
 
No! This was MY idea!
Offline
Posts: 24505
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 14:55:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Magnuss said: »
No! This was MY idea!

You could call me Juan Sanchez Villa-Lobos Ramirez.

I mean, it's a mouthful, but.

It'd be new. And true to the naming impetus.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Nausi
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-09-25 15:07:16
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Are you really stipulating that advances in medical technology justify the increase? Does that mean that millions have been shortchanged by the system since before these advancements?
Offline
Posts: 24505
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 15:10:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Are you really stipulating that advances in medical technology justify the increase? Does that mean that millions have been shortchanged by the system since before these advancements?

I believe that 1) you're underestimating the amount of children now receiving SSI benefits thanks to that court ruling I mentioned. 2) due to technological (ability to access/awareness) and medical advancements, yes the numbers have increased, and 3) Yes, said technology can also make fraud, and learning about how to try to con your way through the process, easier.

There's certainly fraud and inappropriate use of SSD/SSI out there.

But I'm also sure it's a significantly smaller number than you think.

I think you're not properly accounting for the fact that many of those people from 1997 are still alive and receiving benefits...and then many who have begun receiving benefits since are added to that. Those aren't two entirely seperate groups of people; there is significant overlap.
 Bahamut.Milamber
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: milamber
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-25 15:11:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Are you really stipulating that advances in medical technology justify the increase? Does that mean that millions have been shortchanged by the system since before these advancements?
People live that may have otherwise died? Or at least lived longer?
 Bahamut.Milamber
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: milamber
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-25 15:12:44
Link | Quote | Reply
 
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
 Asura.Kingnobody
Bug Hunter
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:13:16
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ramyrez said: »
There's certainly fraud and inappropriate use of SSD/SSI out there.

But I'm also sure it's a significantly smaller number than you think.
I think that it's a much larger number than you think.

The reason why I say this is because when there is businesses actively seeking people to apply for SSI disability benefits, then you know for a fact that it is abused at a high rate.

It's even worse when said businesses do not even hide the fact that they are out to commit fraud either......
Offline
Posts: 24505
By Ramyrez 2014-09-25 15:13:59
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Would love to stay and continue this chat, but I do actually have to dash. Enjoy. I'll be back tomorrow to grace you all with the Overwhelming Gospel of Madness of the Great Cthulhu.
 Asura.Kingnobody
Bug Hunter
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:14:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
Zero.

And anyone who disagrees with me should state (for the record) why it is not only ok to steal from anyone, but acceptable and even encouraged to do so.

I know Jet's reasoning, and I'm sure he would be one of the first to counter this post too. But seriously.
 Asura.Kingnobody
Bug Hunter
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:15:32
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ramyrez said: »
Would love to stay and continue this chat, but I do actually have to dash. Enjoy. I'll be back tomorrow to grace you all with the Overwhelming Gospel of Madness of the Great Cthulhu.
Wimp. Spaghetti Monster > all.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Nausi
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-09-25 15:17:00
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
That's the crux of it,

Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.

Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy.
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-25 15:22:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Back in June when I was crunching all the numbers, there was one number that I could not find exact details on.

Non-civilian U.S. Population: 70,361,000.

Not all of that can possibly be military personal. Even rounded up there were currently 2 million people employed in the military. That would mean each one would have be a family (mother + father) of about 17 children to account for this number.

Illegal immigration came to mind, but even those figures are around 12 million, although that was done in 2006.

I suppose if you add up military + illegal immigration + all members of government and judiciary system and their families maybe that would account for that.
[+]
 Bahamut.Milamber
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: milamber
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-25 15:31:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
That's the crux of it,

Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.

Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy.
The cost to attain a 0% fraud system is absurd, and easily costs far more than the defauded amount once you reach a particular threshold.
A goal of 0% is laudable. A requirement for it is insanity.
 Asura.Kingnobody
Bug Hunter
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 15:41:56
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
That's the crux of it,

Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.

Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy.
The cost to attain a 0% fraud system is absurd, and easily costs far more than the defauded amount once you reach a particular threshold.
A goal of 0% is laudable. A requirement for it is insanity.
Wait, what?

So, you are saying that the federal government shouldn't even try to cut/eliminate fraud because you think it's impossible?

You do realize that there are already laws and regulations in place to prevent fraud, but since our current administration has made it a habit to ignore those laws and regulations, fraud is more prevalent because of it.

But if they follow the law, fraud would be greatly reduced, reduced enough to make zero fraud sustainable.

I guess governmental fraud is encouraged in Denmark.
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Zerowone
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 15:56:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.

Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 13787
By Bloodrose 2014-09-25 16:01:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.

Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope.
Actually, I think he's saying "if criminals followed the letter of the law, there wouldn't be any more crime"
Offline
Posts: 42646
By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 16:02:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
Zero.

And anyone who disagrees with me should state (for the record) why it is not only ok to steal from anyone, but acceptable and even encouraged to do so.

I know Jet's reasoning, and I'm sure he would be one of the first to counter this post too. But seriously.
I'll counter your post, but because your asserted combined premises are totally out of whack.

While wanting 0% fraud is fine, it's definitely not a realistic situation, nor cost effective to maintain.

You're speaking of idealism when I like to work more with realism.

Who encourages anyone to steal from anyone? are you losing your mind?

The question that should be asked (and can be determined rather easily actually) is what level of fraud do we want to actually spend time combating until we're actually in the red by combating it?

This is the voter ID *** all over again.
Offline
Posts: 42646
By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 16:03:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Wait, what?

So, you are saying that the federal government shouldn't even try to cut/eliminate fraud because you think it's impossible?

You do realize that there are already laws and regulations in place to prevent fraud, but since our current administration has made it a habit to ignore those laws and regulations, fraud is more prevalent because of it.

But if they follow the law, fraud would be greatly reduced, reduced enough to make zero fraud sustainable.

I guess governmental fraud is encouraged in Denmark.
What in particular has this "administration" done to circumvent regulations that are supposed to prevent fraud?
 Asura.Kingnobody
Bug Hunter
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-25 16:06:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I love how so many people just give up on even the simplest tasks.

"Oh noes, it's too hard to follow the law, so let's break it!"
Offline
Posts: 42646
By Jetackuu 2014-09-25 16:17:27
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
I love how so many people just give up on even the simplest tasks.

"Oh noes, it's too hard to follow the law, so let's break it!"
Again with deducing something that had nothing to do with what we were talking about.

/slowclap

If you think there's something simple about getting rid of human corruption then you have a hard dose of reality yet to sink in.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Flavin
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-09-25 16:17:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Milamber said: »
What really shoild be asked is:
What is an acceptable level of fraudulent activity?
That's the crux of it,

Whats acceptable is 0 fraud. I don't make it a habit of paying for fraudulent services. If a auto mechanic screws me or you over with fraudulent services we each demand restitution.

Except not when its a good liberal cause like disability. Then we must not question the fraud, less we're a racist, sexist, bigot, or otherwise don't care about the needy.
The cost to attain a 0% fraud system is absurd, and easily costs far more than the defauded amount once you reach a particular threshold.
A goal of 0% is laudable. A requirement for it is insanity.
Wait, what?

So, you are saying that the federal government shouldn't even try to cut/eliminate fraud because you think it's impossible?

You do realize that there are already laws and regulations in place to prevent fraud, but since our current administration has made it a habit to ignore those laws and regulations, fraud is more prevalent because of it.

But if they follow the law, fraud would be greatly reduced, reduced enough to make zero fraud sustainable.

I guess governmental fraud is encouraged in Denmark.
I beleive he was saying that the cost to acheive such a goal would outweigh the benefit of acheiving said goal. Kind of like spending a billion to stop a hundred mil in fraud.

I don't see anywhere that he said they shouldn't try to eliminate fraud nor did he say that they should do nothing to stop it.

He even stated that the ideal was worthy of praise...
[+]
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Zerowone
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 16:29:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
That's exactly what Milamber said but it went over the head of some our argumentative and one dimensional posters.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Zerowone
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 16:31:12
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bloodrose said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.

Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope.
Actually, I think he's saying "if criminals followed the letter of the law, there wouldn't be any more crime"


How can a criminal be a criminal if they do not commit a crime?

Just something to ponder with respect to the vocabulary used.

Then to follow up the train of thought:

If no one commits a crime then what's the point of law enforcement or any form of oversight?

If these things do not exist how would we be sure if crimes/fraud occur?
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Offline
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
user: ChaosX128
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-25 16:45:38
Link | Quote | Reply
 
It's not a crime unless you get caught.
Offline
Posts: 13787
By Bloodrose 2014-09-25 16:49:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Bloodrose said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Ooook sooo you're saying that not only is zero % fraud obtainable, but sustainable in a country with a population of 350M.

Now this is an opinion/idealized belief I hope.
Actually, I think he's saying "if criminals followed the letter of the law, there wouldn't be any more crime"


How can a criminal be a criminal if they do not commit a crime?

Just something to ponder with respect to the vocabulary used.

Then to follow up the train of thought:

If no one commits a crime then what's the point of law enforcement or any form of oversight?

If these things do not exist how would we be sure if crimes/fraud occur?
The vocab was intentional.
But, since people like to shy away from their own group's fraudulent activities, or use "That law isn't enforceable!" or "I don't agree with that law" as excuses to break the law, well...

You get the idea.

Then again, the amount of fraudulent disability claims have actually gone down since the Clinton Era, more people are living longer lives, but accident rates, due to lazy employers creating working conditions in the workforce that would otherwise see them shut down, and committing fraud by bribing health inspectors, or by using expired products etc. against the health code violations of each individual state that cause more food poisoning and death in growing numbers every year...

But it's somehow the liberals' fault for these conservatives running the show. Particularly when just as many, if not more of the jobless conservative supporters defraud the system.

The argument that people receiving welfare that they have big screen TV's, while they sit at home doing *** all, shows just how out of touch with reality some people are.

Many of them can't find jobs because of where they live - i.e. the job market in their area is almost 0. Meaning there's an oversaturation of people looking for work in an area with minimal amount of jobs available.

"Well, get a better education, you can get a better job" is really *** stupid. Think of all the people who went to school to get a degree in their field of study, only to be stuck with tens of thousands, if not a hundred thousand dollars in debt, and unable to find work because there's no market for it.

Do you people even understand the concept of critical thinking when dealing with problems like this, where keeping the workforce maintainable and healthy, actually lines the pockets of the American people more than keeping them on disability? That it would increase American consumer faith in locally made and manufactured products, due to the higher quality working conditions provided, rather than the subpar ones that would never pass federal or state standards, which are already very, VERY loosely monitored, and thus unable to be as strictly enforced as they should be?
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Zerowone
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-25 18:08:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Preaching to the choir.
 Cerberus.Pleebo
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Pleebo
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-09-25 18:35:44
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Leviathan.Chaosx said: »
Back in June when I was crunching all the numbers, there was one number that I could not find exact details on.

Non-civilian U.S. Population: 70,361,000.

Not all of that can possibly be military personal. Even rounded up there were currently 2 million people employed in the military. That would mean each one would have be a family (mother + father) of about 17 children to account for this number.

Illegal immigration came to mind, but even those figures are around 12 million, although that was done in 2006.

I suppose if you add up military + illegal immigration + all members of government and judiciary system and their families maybe that would account for that.
Civilian non-institutional population
Your (uncited) number includes the institutionalized population along with those on active military duty.
Offline
Posts: 97
By daoming 2014-09-25 19:15:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
So uh are we gonna talk about the students or are we going to wave around our wannabe political shlongs all day? I want a news update here people.
[+]
 Shiva.Viciousss
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
user: Viciouss
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2014-09-25 19:17:51
Link | Quote | Reply
 
daoming said: »
So uh are we gonna talk about the students or are we going to wave around our wannabe political shlongs all day? I want a news update here people.

So go find one?
[+]
Offline
Posts: 97
By daoming 2014-09-25 19:19:40
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Viciousss said: »
daoming said: »
So uh are we gonna talk about the students or are we going to wave around our wannabe political shlongs all day? I want a news update here people.

So go find one?

I found it, I'm just intrigued that this thread that is titled for Denver students, is more focused on whatever the hell they're talking about with the populations and whatnot.
[+]
First Page 2 3 ... 8 9 10