|
|
Random Politics & Religion #00
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 11:51:48
I figured we could solve racism by page 880. We can do it. The solution to end racism has already been proposed. Some people seem to think it's too hard to do it at a personal level and are content with being racist themselves, even though they demand the end of racism for all other people besides themselves.
Change solely at the personal level didn't end segregation, nor did it end slavery or gay marriage. It's great to make changes at the personal level but lets not pretend that the superstructure suddenly changes because you decided to live free and love the brown folk.
It's easy to demand small, slow, incremental changes when you aren't knee deep in a racist structure that docks points for simply existing.
I always apply change to myself first as a means of projecting example but individual change does not a centuries long system of oppression unmake.
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3686
By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-08-28 11:54:15
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Phoenix.Amandarius said: »As I check back and see I missed two pages already, it looks like Jassik succeeded in deflecting away from the racist murderer of two people into a broader discussion on racism and how we are all really racist. Kudos.
Guy was racist. How exactly does one black guy killing two news reporters change the needle on American politics again? We're content with letting the bodies pile up either way because muh guns. If you've been playing massacre bingo, you're not safe anywhere.
Whites still hold the majority of power and the all star kill record on serial killings and mass murders if I should be so crass.
Do you feel better that it wasn't a white guy or something? Perhaps we should push some women into mass murder. Even up the score yaknow. Feminism all the things. Bonus points if she's a Latina with machetes and a grudge against immigration bashing.
Lets dial this somebitch up to 11. Make her shout out 'Univision!' before decapitating two innocent white bystanders. Or should we make them Asian for more twists than a Shyamalan flick? Gotta stay inclusive you know.
Wow.
Why do they facts of this case being discussed cause liberals to go completely unhinged?
In his own words, he was pushed over the edge by the murders in Charleston, murders that dominated the headlines for a few days and led to a month of discussing the Confederate flag. A murder of two white people in essentially retaliation over a white guy killing black people. A white guy, that everyone of us agreed was a racist. Now when a black man kills in retaliation we are supposed to just move on and forget it. We are supposed to forget how Democrats and liberals have stoked the flames of racial tension and constantly fire people up. This retaliation murder is exactly what you get when you stoke those flames. Race profiteering liberals play this dangerous game and these are the results, retaliation, murder, cops being randomly shot, burning down cities. But yes please, go on making jokes about it.
[+]
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-28 11:55:41
Biases ALWAYS exist where things are different. It's hardcoded into the human psyche. You see a guy in a suit walking at night, he's probably having car trouble, you see a guy in baggy jeans, he's probably up to something, etc. If you say so.
Both cases, historically, I have lent aid to both people, as they are, you know, human beings who look like they are in trouble.
Number of times I have been robbed in my lifetime: 0.
I'm not saying that people won't rob you regardless, it's just that it is very unlikely for a person to rob you when they have a temporary bind (such as car trouble) than they are when they have a more permanent bind (such as their own life choices).
You're missing the point. The human brain evolved to make associations. Deer = chase, wolf = get chased
Your experiences boil down to a series of associations. I see guys in beat to crap jacked up trucks with gun racks and testicle trailer hitch ornaments and the first thing I think is redneck. Not because all those things are exclusive to rednecks or that being a redneck makes you more likely to have that vehicle, but because most often, the two are associated in my experience. Similarly, I see a BMW SUV weaving in and out of lanes and I think bimbo soccer mom. Again, not because those 2 things are absolutely linked, but because they often are. Bias is just an instinctual association you make between a situation and past situations. They don't necessarily have anything to do with race or even people. Look at sports fanship, people love a team for decades with entirely different players/owners/managers. Often they root for the local team or the one their dad rooted for. Nobody is exempt from biases.
 Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13622
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-08-28 11:55:42
Completely off-topic, but this is the funniest thing I've overheard someone say so far this week:
"She is the Jamaican version of He-Man."
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-28 11:57:45
Completely off-topic, but this is the funniest thing I've overheard someone say so far this week:
"She is the Jamaican version of He-Man."
I assume it's an "orange is the new black" reference?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-08-28 11:58:07
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Change solely at the personal level didn't end segregation, nor did it end slavery or gay marriage. No, but it is a reasonable first step towards said goals.
You cannot build Rome in a day....
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »It's great to make changes at the personal level but lets not pretend that the superstructure suddenly changes because you decided to live free and love the brown folk.
Again, you cannot build Rome in a day, and you are crazy to demand it too unless you are willing to put the effort you demand from everyone else.
If we all try to end segregation on a personal level, then it will be much easier and have a whole lot less resistance to end segregation at an institutional level.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 11:58:34
Hmm. Didn't I open my paragraph with "guy was racist"? *fumbles over notes* I do think I did. Maybe. Sorta. I dunno.
Stoking flames. That's rich. Hey dude, you live in America. Where mass murder is twice a month, old white guys talk down to the brown folk about how to suck less and your solution is essentially to stop talking about racism because it might send some guy over the edge.
Seriously. We'll be back at this in two weeks when another maniac decides to blow some people away. Lets play Massacre Bingo shall we?
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 12:00:47
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Change solely at the personal level didn't end segregation, nor did it end slavery or gay marriage. No, but it is a reasonable first step towards said goals.
You cannot build Rome in a day....
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »It's great to make changes at the personal level but lets not pretend that the superstructure suddenly changes because you decided to live free and love the brown folk.
Again, you cannot build Rome in a day, and you are crazy to demand it too unless you are willing to put the effort you demand from everyone else.
If we all try to end segregation on a personal level, then it will be much easier and have a whole lot less resistance to end segregation at an institutional level.
And how do you know we're not practicing what we preach?
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-08-28 12:01:39
Biases ALWAYS exist where things are different. It's hardcoded into the human psyche. You see a guy in a suit walking at night, he's probably having car trouble, you see a guy in baggy jeans, he's probably up to something, etc. If you say so.
Both cases, historically, I have lent aid to both people, as they are, you know, human beings who look like they are in trouble.
Number of times I have been robbed in my lifetime: 0.
I'm not saying that people won't rob you regardless, it's just that it is very unlikely for a person to rob you when they have a temporary bind (such as car trouble) than they are when they have a more permanent bind (such as their own life choices).
You're missing the point. The human brain evolved to make associations. Deer = chase wolf = get chased
Your experiences boil down to a series of associations. I see guys in beat to crap jacked up trucks with gun racks and testicle trailer hitch ornaments and the first thing I think is redneck. Not because all those things are exclusive to rednecks or that being a redneck makes you more likely to have that vehicle, but because most often, the two are associated in my experience. Similarly, I see a BMW SUV weaving in and out of lanes and I think bimbo soccer mom. Again, not because those 2 things are absolutely linked, but because they often are. Bias is just an instinctual association you make between a situation and past situations. They don't necessarily have anything to do with race or even people. Look at sports fanship, people love a team for decades with entirely different players/owners/managers. Often they root for the local team or the one their dad rooted for. Nobody is exempt from biases. I know what stereotypes are. And again, you are allowing said stereotypes to dictate your thinking.
I'm sorry that you neither want to try to end racism nor have the desire for it, based on your own personal beliefs. So, if you want to be true to yourself, call yourself a racist and move on.
I'm not a racist. I hope to never be a racist, but I cannot predict the future, especially in regards to my own thoughts on society. One morning, I might wake up and say that I will actively seek to end humanity, or I might not. Who knows.
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3686
By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-08-28 12:01:52
There is discussing actual racism then there is an active effort to create racial tension for political gain.
[+]
By fonewear 2015-08-28 12:02:49
I see racism everyday even the background of this website is white !
[+]
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3686
By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-08-28 12:04:08
As a fun exercise, try to imagine how awkward that once a year conversation is that Jassik has with a black guy, as he consciously tries so hard to not sound racist.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-08-28 12:04:31
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Change solely at the personal level didn't end segregation, nor did it end slavery or gay marriage. No, but it is a reasonable first step towards said goals.
You cannot build Rome in a day....
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »It's great to make changes at the personal level but lets not pretend that the superstructure suddenly changes because you decided to live free and love the brown folk.
Again, you cannot build Rome in a day, and you are crazy to demand it too unless you are willing to put the effort you demand from everyone else.
If we all try to end segregation on a personal level, then it will be much easier and have a whole lot less resistance to end segregation at an institutional level.
And how do you know we're not practicing what we preach? You, personally, have not given any indication that you are actively being racist towards anyone, nor have you given any indication that you want to end racism either.
Jassik, on the other hand, has shown that he doesn't want racism to end, and has admitted that he is comfortable with the concept on a personal level.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-28 12:07:22
I know what stereotypes are. And again, you are allowing said stereotypes to dictate your thinking.
I'm sorry that you neither want to try to end racism nor have the desire for it, based on your own personal beliefs. So, if you want to be true to yourself, call yourself a racist and move on.
I'm not a racist. I hope to never be a racist, but I cannot predict the future, especially in regards to my own thoughts on society. One morning, I might wake up and say that I will actively seek to end humanity, or I might not. Who knows.
You're seriously just messing with me, right? There is no way you don't understand the difference between internal biases and stereotypes. Why does acknowledging the way the human brain learns in any way connect to my wanting or not wanting to end racism or my "beliefs" on the subject? Any why does someone who cries "personal attacks" about every 3 posts not see the hypocrisy in calling me a racist?
[+]
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-28 12:08:25
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »There is discussing actual racism then there is an active effort to create racial tension for political gain.
I agree 100%. Denying racism for political gain is also disgusting.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-08-28 12:13:13
I know what stereotypes are. And again, you are allowing said stereotypes to dictate your thinking.
I'm sorry that you neither want to try to end racism nor have the desire for it, based on your own personal beliefs. So, if you want to be true to yourself, call yourself a racist and move on.
I'm not a racist. I hope to never be a racist, but I cannot predict the future, especially in regards to my own thoughts on society. One morning, I might wake up and say that I will actively seek to end humanity, or I might not. Who knows.
You're seriously just messing with me, right? There is no way you don't understand the difference between internal biases and stereotypes. Why does acknowledging the way the human brain learns in any way connect to my wanting or not wanting to end racism or my "beliefs" on the subject? Any why does someone who cries "personal attacks" about every 3 posts not see the hypocrisy in calling me a racist? Wait, are you saying that personal stereotypes and internal biases are different?
If you see two guys walking down the street, and automatically think one is a thug and the other is a redneck, your internal biases created those personal stereotypes on those two people, regardless if they are or not.
IF you see those same two guys walking down the street, and automatically see those two guys (regardless of what they are wearing or doing) as two guys, you have no internal biases or personal stereotypes. Does that mean those two guys are not thugs/rednecks? No. But it means that you don't class them as such.
I'm sorry that you are so blinded by your own stereotype that you cannot see people for who they really are: people.
Besides, didn't you say you were done with this conversation already?
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 12:14:25
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »As a fun exercise, try to imagine how awkward that once a year conversation is that Jassik has with a black guy, as he consciously tries so hard to not sound racist.
So should I lump you in with the KKK and other white supremacist groups playing this attack as more reason we should round up every black person and force them off the American continent or at least back into subservience? Dangerous, unhinged maniacs those brown folk are!
Because that'd be *** nuts right?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-08-28 12:15:56
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Phoenix.Amandarius said: »As a fun exercise, try to imagine how awkward that once a year conversation is that Jassik has with a black guy, as he consciously tries so hard to not sound racist.
So should I lump you in with the KKK and other white supremacist groups playing this attack as more reason we should round up every black person and force them off the American continent or at least back into subservience? Dangerous, unhinged maniacs those brown folk are!
Because that'd be *** nuts right? Because those two are exactly opposite arguments, aren't they?
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 12:21:10
Quote: There is discussing actual racism then there is an active effort to create racial tension for political gain. Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Phoenix.Amandarius said: »As a fun exercise, try to imagine how awkward that once a year conversation is that Jassik has with a black guy, as he consciously tries so hard to not sound racist.
So should I lump you in with the KKK and other white supremacist groups playing this attack as more reason we should round up every black person and force them off the American continent or at least back into subservience? Dangerous, unhinged maniacs those brown folk are!
Because that'd be *** nuts right? Because those two are exactly opposite arguments, aren't they?
On the left, you've got perpetual victims who ride this out for political points by you and Amans own admission. Sharpton is your go-to man.
On the right you have... perpetual victims in the form of whiny *** like the KKK and other variant white supremacists. Same schtick pallet swapped.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 12:22:22
Fortunately in my world people aren't on either side A or B, because that'd be *** nuts.
[+]
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-28 12:24:23
Wait, are you saying that personal stereotypes and internal biases are different?
If you see two guys walking down the street, and automatically think one is a thug and the other is a redneck, your internal biases created those personal stereotypes on those two people, regardless if they are or not.
IF you see those same two guys walking down the street, and automatically see those two guys (regardless of what they are wearing or doing) as two guys, you have no internal biases or personal stereotypes. Does that mean those two guys are not thugs/rednecks? No. But it means that you don't class them as such.
I'm sorry that you are so blinded by your own stereotype that you cannot see people for who they really are: people.
No, dude, you're trying way too hard to turn this one around.
Learned associations are subconscious processes that absolutely everyone has as a mechanic of how the brain works. I'm able to admit that those associations effect how I perceive situations on a subconscious level, and actively seek to make new associations or temper my response to situations.
Do I notice a person's race when I interact with them? Yeah.
Does it affect how I interact with them? Nope.
When you have an association between two things, your subconscious response to seeing one of them is to recall that association and prepare to react. See something flying toward you, past association between object flying toward you and baseball hitting your head, prepare to move out of the way or catch the ball.
I'm done playing your baiting and personal attack game.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-08-28 12:27:09
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »On the left, you've got perpetual victims who ride this out for political points by you and Amans own admission. Sharpton is your go-to man. Wait, are you saying that there aren't people who use racism as a way to earn financial gain and/or political power?
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »On the right you have... perpetual victims in the form of whiny *** like the KKK and other variant white supremacists. Same schtick pallet swapped. And they are mostly ignored until/unless they do something socially and/or legally wrong.
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Fortunately in my world people aren't on either side A or B, because that'd be *** nuts. Strange, you just classified two groups into Side A and Side B....
And implied that I did too (notice I said arguments, not "perpetual victims" like you did).
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3686
By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-08-28 12:27:26
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Phoenix.Amandarius said: »As a fun exercise, try to imagine how awkward that once a year conversation is that Jassik has with a black guy, as he consciously tries so hard to not sound racist.
So should I lump you in with the KKK and other white supremacist groups playing this attack as more reason we should round up every black person and force them off the American continent or at least back into subservience? Dangerous, unhinged maniacs those brown folk are!
Because that'd be *** nuts right?
I say again, Wow.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-08-28 12:30:15
Wait, are you saying that personal stereotypes and internal biases are different?
If you see two guys walking down the street, and automatically think one is a thug and the other is a redneck, your internal biases created those personal stereotypes on those two people, regardless if they are or not.
IF you see those same two guys walking down the street, and automatically see those two guys (regardless of what they are wearing or doing) as two guys, you have no internal biases or personal stereotypes. Does that mean those two guys are not thugs/rednecks? No. But it means that you don't class them as such.
I'm sorry that you are so blinded by your own stereotype that you cannot see people for who they really are: people.
No, dude, you're trying way too hard to turn this one around.
Learned associations are subconscious processes that absolutely everyone has as a mechanic of how the brain works. I'm able to admit that those associations effect how I perceive situations on a subconscious level, and actively seek to make new associations or temper my response to situations.
Do I notice a person's race when I interact with them? Yeah.
Does it affect how I interact with them? Nope.
When you have an association between two things, your subconscious response to seeing one of them is to recall that association and prepare to react. See something flying toward you, past association between object flying toward you and baseball hitting your head, prepare to move out of the way or catch the ball.
I'm done playing your baiting and personal attack game. I'm sorry that you are trying to justify your own racial tendencies.
But hey, good attempt at trying to not sound racist with your example. Do you honestly not differentiate people based on the color of their skin, or are you just saying that to backpedal on what you stated earlier?
Again, for somebody who's apparently "done" with this conversation (as you just said twice), you keep on continuing to engage in said conversation...
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 12:32:08
Wait, are you saying that there aren't people who use racism as a way to earn financial gain and/or political power?
You do know there are plenty of people who just exist right? They recognize a system is unfair, grumble about it and go back to living life. Whatever life is.
It takes an extra step to actually care enough to pursue change one way or another. Do you go to rallies or donate to pols who specifically want to change things because of racism? Yeah, probably not. Most people can't even be assed to vote.
Quote: And they are mostly ignored until/unless they do something socially and/or legally wrong.
And yet you bring up Sharpton constantly. So much for ignoring when the guy takes up at least 24MB of your brainspace.
Quote: Strange, you just classified two groups into Side A and Side B....
It's the dichotomy of this forum and talking to people in general. Most people can't see beyond two boxes where you're either for them or against them, doubly so when you inject politics or religion into a conversation.
If you'd read, the point was that most people don't fall into a box. How people feel about racism and what should/shouldn't be done is a gradient.
VIP
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-28 12:33:45
I'm sorry that you are trying to justify your own racial tendencies.
But hey, good attempt at trying to not sound racist with your example. Do you honestly not differentiate people based on the color of their skin, or are you just saying that to backpedal on what you stated earlier?
Again, for somebody who's apparently "done" with this conversation (as you just said twice), you keep on continuing to engage in said conversation...
I'm happy to discuss the topic in an adult manner, what I'm done with is trollbaiting.
Nobody would misunderstand what I said unless that was their intention from the start. You refuse to acknowledge your own bias to react in opposition of anything I say.
By fonewear 2015-08-28 12:34:07
Let's end racism 30 pages later. Let's talk about how we are going to stop talking about racism !
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-08-28 12:37:29
Let's end racism 30 pages later. Let's talk about how we are going to stop talking about racism !
We'll settle it with a good old fashioned football game. Then we'll dump gatorade over our heads, pound some beers, eat hot pockets then go to sleep.
There. racism solved.
[+]
By Ramyrez 2015-08-28 12:37:41
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »You do know there are plenty of people who just exist right? They recognize a system is unfair, grumble about it and go back to living life. Whatever life is.
When you have 2-4 waking hours a day to actually use however you desire "making a difference" is a lot more daunting, sadly.
By Ramyrez 2015-08-28 12:38:30
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Let's end racism 30 pages later. Let's talk about how we are going to stop talking about racism !
We'll settle it with a good old fashioned football game. Then we'll dump gatorade over our heads, pound some beers, eat hot pockets then go to sleep.
There. racism solved.
If the NFL is anything to go by, concussing a bunch of grown men doesn't seem like the best way to fix anything...
Ugh. And don't get me started on that. ***...Steelers...signing Michael Vick...arrr....
Random Politics & Religion is for topics that aren't thread worthy on their own and do not have their own existing thread.
Rules and Guidelines
Forum Rules and P&R Section Guidelines still apply.
Satire is tolerated.
If your topic covers a story over 6 months old (Watergate, Benghazi, 2012 Election, etc.) post it here.
Discussions on racism, homophobia, transphobia, and the like are allowed, targeted insults based on these will not be tolerated.
Political debates get heated and are meant to be intense, if you take offense to being called or proven wrong, you don't belong here.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen; if you prove you can't handle the criticism you bring upon yourself in this thread, you may be removed from it. You are responsible for what you post.
Along those lines, heat is fine, but sustained, clearly personal hostility is not okay. The personal attack rules still apply. Attack positions, not posters. Failure to adhere to this will result in your removal from the thread.
This thread is NOT the Flame Core.
These rules are subject to change and modification where and when needed.
Random Politics & Religion may be mained or demained depending on the activity within at a Moderator's discretion.
With that out of the way, let the debates begin!
/bow
|
|
