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Random Politics & Religion #00
By Ramyrez 2015-05-21 11:33:04
Well, we can blame the previous administration for starting the Iraq War (plus Hillary and other Dems who voted for it), but nobody seems to be talking about who's responsible for letting the cities that required so much American bloodshed to win fall into the hands of ISIS.
Also issues, to be sure.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:33:26
Now all we need is Pleebo to chime in and post some random babble and the P&R circlejerk is complete!
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By Ramyrez 2015-05-21 11:35:06
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Billions in taxpayer dollars up in smoke in the pockets of those close to *** Cheney, and we're supposed to think he didn't see a piece of that. Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Don't hand me the dictator toppled argument either because the world is full of 'em and we give no *** until it affects the bottom line.
See prior discussion re: North Korea
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »What exactly did we 'gain' in Iraq again?
PTSD?
C'mon, Mosin. You know that PTSD doesn't exist to these guys. Mental illnesses are the sign of a weak mind and if you can't handle things that go on in war it's your own fault for signing up. Man up already.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-21 11:36:49
Well, we can blame the previous administration for starting the Iraq War (plus Hillary and other Dems who voted for it), but nobody seems to be talking about who's responsible for letting the cities that required so much American bloodshed to win fall into the hands of ISIS. Yeah, blame those stupid Iraqi soldiers for constantly dropping their weapons and running away.
Whoa now. I thought that the Iraq War was a success and that the country was in good hands?
Quote: "It's harder to end a war than begin one. Everything that American troops have done in Iraq - all the fighting, all the dying, the bleeding and the building and the training and the partnering, all of it has landed to this moment of success."
...
"Iraq's not a perfect place. It has many challenges ahead. But we're leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self reliant Iraq with a representative government that was elected by its people. We're building a new partnership between our nations and we are ending a war not with a final battle but with a final march toward home. This is an extraordinary achievement."
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:41:10
Well, we can blame the previous administration for starting the Iraq War (plus Hillary and other Dems who voted for it), but nobody seems to be talking about who's responsible for letting the cities that required so much American bloodshed to win fall into the hands of ISIS. Yeah, blame those stupid Iraqi soldiers for constantly dropping their weapons and running away.
Whoa now. I thought that the Iraq War was a success and that the country was in good hands?
Quote: "It's harder to end a war than begin one. Everything that American troops have done in Iraq - all the fighting, all the dying, the bleeding and the building and the training and the partnering, all of it has landed to this moment of success."
...
"Iraq's not a perfect place. It has many challenges ahead. But we're leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self reliant Iraq with a representative government that was elected by its people. We're building a new partnership between our nations and we are ending a war not with a final battle but with a final march toward home. This is an extraordinary achievement." It's a success when it's politically convenient to be a success (aka when Obama is being portrayed as a hero who shot Osama himself)
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-05-21 11:41:22
What does that have to do with soldiers running away?
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-21 11:41:50
So lets see here... instead of blaming the administration that that got us into it in the first place for no good reason under false pretenses and created the power vacuum in the first place you want to blame the administration who gave the people what they wanted which was to bring the troops home? I guess we should have just stayed there forever.
You guys are silly if you can't see that the United States gets involved in all of these conflicts to protect interests important to the US. We didn't go into Iraq because we wanted to make it a better place for the residents there...
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:42:33
What does that have to do with soldiers running away? Are you saying that Obama did a great job ending the war before the job was done and training was complete?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-21 11:42:58
Look, I will never say that the Iraq War II wasn't a mistake.
But I am saying that, instead of harping on it for the rest of our lives (memories of Vietnam anyone?), let's learn from it and move on.org.
Oh wai.....
So how exactly do you 'move on' from a current military engagement that sprouted out of the last military engagement? ISIS is the direct result of Iraq + Syria.
Well that and spreading the military equipment and training around to fight proxy wars.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:43:52
So lets see here... instead of blaming the administration that that got us into it in the first place for no good reason under false pretenses and created the power vacuum in the first place you want to blame the administration who gave the people what they wanted which was to bring the troops home? I guess we should have just stayed there forever. Who's not blaming the Bush administration again? Oh, right, nobody isn't.
We didn't go into Iraq because we wanted to make it a better place for the residents there... Why again did we go to Iraq, in your mind?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:45:02
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Look, I will never say that the Iraq War II wasn't a mistake.
But I am saying that, instead of harping on it for the rest of our lives (memories of Vietnam anyone?), let's learn from it and move on.org.
Oh wai.....
So how exactly do you 'move on' from a current military engagement that sprouted out of the last military engagement? ISIS is the direct result of Iraq + Syria.
Well that and spreading the military equipment and training around to fight proxy wars. 
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-05-21 11:45:51
What does that have to do with soldiers running away? Are you saying that Obama did a great job ending the war before the job was done and training was complete?
The training was completed. The fall of Mosul is all on al-Maliki and the Iraqi army. The fall of Ramadi is all on the Iraqi army. If they don't want to fight for their country its on them.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-21 11:46:25
What does that have to do with soldiers running away?
Iraq was abandoned as a "success" but left to poorly-trained, under-equipped soldiers. I don't think we should have ever been there in the first place, but leaving it vulnerable to even larger threats after all that went into liberating Iraq was a stupid, stupid error.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:47:03
What does that have to do with soldiers running away? Are you saying that Obama did a great job ending the war before the job was done and training was complete?
The training was completed. The fall of Mosul is all on al-Maliki and the Iraqi army. The fall of Ramadi is all on the Iraqi army. If they don't want to fight for their country its on them. Last I checked, US soldiers don't drop their weapons and run away when fighting starts.
You call that complete training?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-21 11:48:00
What does that have to do with soldiers running away? Are you saying that Obama did a great job ending the war before the job was done and training was complete?
The training was completed. The fall of Mosul is all on al-Maliki and the Iraqi army. The fall of Ramadi is all on the Iraqi army. If they don't want to fight for their country its on them.
Many of them don't see Iraq as a 'country'. More like individual cities united loosely under a forced banner. Makes it quite easy to pick off certain parts of the country when your loyalty is really only to a small region.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-21 11:50:29
What does that have to do with soldiers running away?
Iraq was abandoned as a "success" but left to poorly-trained, under-equipped soldiers. I don't think we should have ever been there in the first place, but leaving it vulnerable to even larger threats after all that went into liberating Iraq was a stupid, stupid error.
Ok so, we should have stayed in Iraq to support the Iraqi army:
-Against the will of the American people.
-Against the will of the Iraqi government.
-Perpetually
You can only shore up that castle of sand for so long. Even with superior firepower and equipment the Iraqis folded against more dedicated, capable, experienced fighters. A similar situation plagues Nigeria against Boko Haram.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-21 11:50:34
Who's not blaming the Bush administration again? Oh, right, nobody isn't. This is in response to Rav's comment in which he brought this all up... so yeah...
Why again did we go to Iraq, in your mind? The official reason given was that the nation was a threat to america and its interests for being in possession of WMD's... I thought this was pretty clear...
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-05-21 11:51:48
What does that have to do with soldiers running away?
Iraq was abandoned as a "success" but left to poorly-trained, under-equipped soldiers. I don't think we should have ever been there in the first place, but leaving it vulnerable to even larger threats after all that went into liberating Iraq was a stupid, stupid error.
Thats ***. They had armored vehicles, heavy weapons, artillery, reinforced barricades, everything except for tanks. They had an overwhelming advantage in Mosul, ISIS literally just walked into town asking to be slaughtered, and the Iraqi's ran. The soldiers were not poorly trained nor poorly equipped.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-21 11:52:26
They didn't have the will to fight and that no amount of American hoorah can replace.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:52:29
This is in response to Rav's comment in which he brought this all up... so yeah... Care to point to us where he made that argument, or was it all in your head when you typed it out?
The official reason given was that the nation was a threat to america and its interests for being in possession of WMD's... I thought this was pretty clear... How about for WMD? Did we find any? What does looking for WMD have to do about removing a dictator from power? If Iraq was really about removing WMD, why did we take Hussain from power? We could have just taken his toys and left him alone... Because, you know, actions speak louder than words.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:54:10
You know, 10 years ago it was the Republicans who were defending the invasion of Iraq and the liberals/democrats who were saying it's a bad idea.
Today, we have the liberals/democrats who are defending the invasion of Iraq and the pullout and the Republicans who are saying it was a bad idea.
Strange how that works, huh?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-21 11:54:10
Uh, we took out Saddam Hussain because the argument posed to the American people was that he planned to USE those weapons against America and/or her interests.
Or pass them off to Al Qaeda, his BFFs (not really) to use in more 9/11 style attacks. Because Saddam Hussain expressed deep interest in attacking America. (not)
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-21 11:54:39
So lets see here... instead of blaming the administration that that got us into it in the first place... Who's not blaming the Bush administration again? Oh, right, nobody isn't. This is in response to Rav's comment in which he brought this all up... so yeah... Well, we can blame the previous administration for starting the Iraq War (plus Hillary and other Dems who voted for it), but nobody seems to be talking about who's responsible for letting the cities that required so much American bloodshed to win fall into the hands of ISIS.
Back to the old reading comprehension argument....
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-05-21 11:56:22
Who is defending the invasion of Iraq?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-21 11:57:11
Who's openly saying that it was a bad idea again?
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-05-21 11:57:42
I miss Saddam. He was awesome.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-21 11:58:43
We just talked about the responsibility for letting cities fall to ISIS: The Iraqi army.
You then made the argument that the Iraqi army weren't trained / given proper equipment. They had both in spades and not only outnumbered ISIS but outgunned them by a wide margin.
The Iraqi army folded.
So the next argument is: Should we have stayed? And the counterargument is no matter how much US bolstering we do with ground forces, we had to leave. Neither Iraq nor Americans wanted to be there.
So should we have ignored those markers to stay anyway? If so, for how long? Until ISIS is destroyed? That requires Syria to sort itself and the Iraqis to gain the will to fight.
So basically 10+ years perhaps.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-21 11:59:06
Who's openly saying that it was a bad idea again?
Hillary Clinton for starters. But it only took her from the time she voted for it until this week to give her official "My bad."
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By Nyruul 2015-05-21 11:59:37
The official reason given was that the nation was a threat to america and its interests for being in possession of WMD's... I thought this was pretty clear...
If that is the case why aren't we invading North Korea who just recently announced completing a warhead? The reasons of WMD had been exposed and put on display awhile ago... How are you supporting that?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-21 12:00:03
And you go political. I really do wish you guys would at least finish your arguments before moving to your political cue cards.
Hillary bad, rah rah rah. I do hope you're being paid by a campaign for such obvious shilling. Just change your avatars to your candidate and quotetrain talking point memos already.
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