IiPunch - Monk Guide

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By kenshynofshiva 2013-08-29 15:37:37
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Bahamut.Shirai said: »
I'm sorry I asked for something simple =_=;
We aren't asking you to post the freaking schematics for a thermonuclear device.

Post some of the sets you use, tell us what buffs your group is giving you, tell us what food you eat.

I'm freaking capping accuracy on Tojil in my fodder set on curry, what is wrong with you?

If your capping acc with no bard or cor accuracy buffs and can use meat I really like to see that set myself I have to use sushi. Not sure why all the anger.


I didnt post any sets because they are all in mortens spreadsheet sitting at home with updated ranks of my gear that at work I am not even gonna try to recreate off the top of my head. Hince if I recall tonight comment which now it seems is my nfl fantasy draft night oh joy.

Please note the group leader determined no acc buffs not me but what the hell I'll try anything for kicks once well maybe. We did win so no biggie sorry I bought it up. Yes it would be better to have acc buffs but I am not in the position to argue that point I was just pointing out my situation I am stuck in.
 Fenrir.Genesi
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By Fenrir.Genesi 2013-08-29 15:49:06
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Can you tell us what songs/rolls you get instead? If I missed it up there in the wall of text, I apologize in advance.
 Cerberus.Detzu
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2013-08-29 15:50:20
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kenshynofshiva said: »
Bahamut.Shirai said: »
I'm sorry I asked for something simple =_=;
We aren't asking you to post the freaking schematics for a thermonuclear device.

Post some of the sets you use, tell us what buffs your group is giving you, tell us what food you eat.

I'm freaking capping accuracy on Tojil in my fodder set on curry, what is wrong with you?

If your capping acc with no bard or cor accuracy buffs and can use meat I really like to see that set myself I have to use sushi. Not sure why all the anger.


I didnt post any sets because they are all in mortens spreadsheet sitting at home with updated ranks of my gear that at work I am not even gonna try to recreate off the top of my head. Hince if I recall tonight comment which now it seems is my nfl fantasy draft night oh joy.

Please note the group leader determined no acc buffs not me but what the hell I'll try anything for kicks once well maybe. We did win so no biggie sorry I bought it up. Yes it would be better to have acc buffs but I am not in the position to argue that point I was just pointing out my situation I am stuck in.

You only make supposition. You are a troll until you post your sets and give details on buffs and food.
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By kenshynofshiva 2013-08-29 16:01:02
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Fenrir.Genesi said: »
Can you tell us what songs/rolls you get instead? If I missed it up there in the wall of text, I apologize in advance.

NP for the most part its 2x Minuets and 2x marches and chaos and fighters are the main ones and seen tacts sams and even rogues. The edict was get capped acc without counting on buffs of accuracy at all. So that's what's up right or wrong or indifferent. He didnt want to count on acc buffs not my choice just detailing what I deal with. Oh food bream sushi.

Not trolling or attacking anyone at all just explained when someone stated shouldn't need the acc I explained my situation and it makes peeps really angry. I give last post to make the haters happy I give up lol.

Heres a parse from tojil:
Code
Melee Damage
Player            Melee Dmg  Abs'd.Dmg   Net Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss    M.HR %   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi  M+0.Avg  M-0.Avg
                  176252          0    176252   67.56 %     502/28   94.72 %   94.72 %    66/582   290.73   290.73
			      66546          0     66546   49.29 %     175/16   91.62 %   91.62 %   123/762   349.99   349.99
                  209092          0    209092   76.89 %     554/63   89.79 %   89.79 %    34/640   324.68   324.68
			      139485          0    139485   74.65 %     393/90   81.37 %   81.37 %     0/627   300.59   300.59
			      171440          0    171440   76.10 %     489/17   96.64 %   96.64 %    49/567   288.61   288.61
                  179811          0    179811   80.63 %     517/20   96.28 %   96.28 %    25/577   282.93   282.93


One guy tried meat without adjusting I think. Not sure have to check the kparser file but this is what i have from my drop box and guess now I am done..
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-08-29 16:21:59
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You're using Sushi and getting tact roll instead of Hunter's? No wonder Shiva was last.
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By kenshynofshiva 2013-08-29 16:27:11
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
You're using Sushi and getting tact roll instead of Hunter's? No wonder Shiva was last.

Really isn't much wonder most of my old crew defected the NA side has a lot of issues and is why Shiva couldn't kill any of the bosses before the weapons upgrade we can pray for a server merge or move servers. It wasn't this bad but when we merged with alexander we had a exodus of players steadily leaving like rats fleeing a sinking ship. The numbers just dont lie only a few groups can consistently beat the big three the rest pugs in general just struggle.

Bad bard cor swaps lack of rolls lack of songs deaths of players that really shouldn't die during the event we seen it all. Oh and missing stuns we seem to have down to an art form...
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By Odin.Cyprias 2013-08-29 16:34:03
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All I see is "blah blah blah"

Post your sets. It's really not that hard and would have probably saved a couple pages.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2013-08-29 16:49:46
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ItemSet 312174

This is the set I currently use (yes, I still use the Tantra Hose +2 in melee)
 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2013-08-29 17:50:28
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So I can make you ask that question.
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By Legendaryhero 2013-08-29 18:58:38
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he's obviously just trolling :p


i decided with all the -PDT on the otronif
it would be worthwhile to put rancor neck in play again...
went to check the hate on tonberry i have with the priest and
it would cost whopping 500 gil to reset...
...looks like i need to go abyssea and kill some tonberries

on a more serious note

given +2 DA on 4/5 otronif and headpiece has crit+2
is it worthwhile still trying for 5/5 +2 DA?
Was thinking dimishing return on stacking DA+ => better to have few pieces crit+2 rather than da+2?(which is why i was thinking going rancor neck )

this is based on sylow's set 4/5 otronif/windbelt one
please comment thank you
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By Shiva.Cziella 2013-08-29 19:08:25
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kenshynofshiva said: »
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
You're using Sushi and getting tact roll instead of Hunter's? No wonder Shiva was last.

Really isn't much wonder most of my old crew defected the NA side has a lot of issues and is why Shiva couldn't kill any of the bosses before the weapons upgrade we can pray for a server merge or move servers. It wasn't this bad but when we merged with alexander we had a exodus of players steadily leaving like rats fleeing a sinking ship. The numbers just dont lie only a few groups can consistently beat the big three the rest pugs in general just struggle.

Bad bard cor swaps lack of rolls lack of songs deaths of players that really shouldn't die during the event we seen it all. Oh and missing stuns we seem to have down to an art form...

We (REMupdates) cleared all 3 Delve Bosses pre +skill update on Weapons, we beat Tojil with Delve Plasm weapons. Didn't get JPs help or leeched Bosses Weapons from them either, like other LSs. The only truth in your post is that -most- NAs in shiva are bad players that post in forums all day, like me.


P.S. Shiva wasn't the last server to get clears, not according to the BG Delve thread, but yeah, we are pretty bad, like I wish I wasn't in the same server as some people terribad.
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By Shiva.Tedril 2013-08-29 19:12:42
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Idk I already thoroughly explained one page ago why thaumas coat is overrated, with no counter argument other then the spreadsheet says so... However I explained as to how it can very much be overrated and why the spreadsheet can miss what a parser can see.
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-08-29 19:22:54
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How does math fail to account for the observance of math?

If you're questioning the accuracy of the spreadsheets, you may want to know the parser was written by the same person. And if you know what you're doing, the results will line up.
[+]
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By Asura.Echandra 2013-08-29 19:29:14
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So...can this thread go back to debating to use or not use Boost? It was more interesting than talking about dying to the 3 delve megaboss even though on my spreadsheet I put all these numbers that said I should win with set but didn't factor in that mobs actually fight back.

Stuff I take for granted apparently isn't common knowledge or something *shrug*

What's next? Pictures of Set Using or it didn't happen?
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 Leviathan.Dragonlord
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By Leviathan.Dragonlord 2013-08-29 19:34:22
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Shiva.Tedril said: »
Idk I already thoroughly explained one page ago why thaumas coat is overrated, with no counter argument other then the spreadsheet says so... However I explained as to how it can very much be overrated and why the spreadsheet can miss what a parser can see.

I don't know if the spreadsheets factor in the chance that additional hits may go over 100tp and therefore lose efficiency. However, they can be programmed to account for the overage of tp. It can get a little messy when figuring QA>TA>DA, but it is possible. And even when there is an overage of tp, that often converts into higher WS damage (discounting SS since that's plague duration modded my tp)

The only time parsing is more accurate at guessing an average than a good spreadsheet is when there are unknown or incorrect factors in the spreadsheet formulas.
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By Otomis 2013-08-29 19:40:44
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One of the huge factors seeing with XMLs if the mobs do not fight back issue. which lessons people understanding on defensive play. I am not sure which parse folks use: I have used David Smith's Full memory log parser: which is nice since it parses everything from exp to drop, to DPS, and damage taken, blocks, parry, evade, etc. I know folks use scoreboard a lot but I have never used it. From what I understand it only gives offensive data; not even breaking down crit rates, avg hit damage, acc etc? Like I said I am not sure what it gives, or the information you can obtain from other parsers.

I have found parse data to not be equal to spreed sheet data, but the issues more come from defensive playing. as far as WS avgs it seem to be accurate with in less then 5% most time. That being said I would say that the XML DPS calcs are very valuable and out side of a small window of error I do not see them being inaccurate.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-08-29 19:43:25
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People are using my comments a few pages ago for the forces of evil!
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-08-29 19:48:34
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Scoreboard's DPS estimate is as accurate as you could hope for if you reset it right as your fight begins.
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By Otomis 2013-08-29 19:52:46
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
Scoreboard's DPS estimate is as accurate as you could hope for if you reset it right as your fight begins.

Not saying it is not accurate, just saying it seems rather limited. Kparser is what I use, it gives great information across all fields.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-08-29 19:56:59
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Leviathan.Dragonlord said: »
I don't know if the spreadsheets factor in the chance that additional hits may go over 100tp and therefore lose efficiency. However, they can be programmed to account for the overage of tp. It can get a little messy when figuring QA>TA>DA, but it is possible.
You guys must think Motenten got wasted one night and decided to scribble out the spreadsheets while banging three hookers and snorting coke off of their *** until his nose bled and he couldn't see straight.
[+]
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By Ragnarok.Crunkie 2013-08-29 20:13:44
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So with the new Skirmish II gear, does the base gear beat out the mani gear rank 15 or does it have to be augmented with DA+2 to win? I'm just curious since it doesn't mention in the gear guide on the front page.
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By Shiva.Tedril 2013-08-29 21:36:54
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
Leviathan.Dragonlord said: »
I don't know if the spreadsheets factor in the chance that additional hits may go over 100tp and therefore lose efficiency. However, they can be programmed to account for the overage of tp. It can get a little messy when figuring QA>TA>DA, but it is possible.
You guys must think Motenten got wasted one night and decided to scribble out the spreadsheets while banging three hookers and snorting coke off of their *** until his nose bled and he couldn't see straight.
His math is perfect... And the system is fantastic and I bow in respect to his efforts and thank him for the opportunity to use his different spreadsheets! However it is a simple fact that there is lots of things that cannot be understood by a simple formula. However you can account for some tp overage, the only real way to see this correctly is if you were to actually simulate rather than spreadsheet with dps and try and find how things will line up.
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
People are using my comments a few pages ago for the forces of evil!
And i'm not trying to misquote you at all sylow. So correct me if I'm wrong in saying this, but there is the X factor involved in all games. Especially in the since of "procs" you never know when something will x-hit or aftermath activations, or anything with ratio and given xyz the real amounts cannot be known. One point you brought up is that another theory would be to optimize for as jinjo would say "sucking" or rather towards reality that ***is gonna hit the fan. In my experience that's always the best MMO build to make. And whether you agree or not that's the point kenshyn is making. And he is being very nice to point out that he isn't saying y'all are wrong or right, just how does things.
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By Shiva.Tedril 2013-08-29 21:39:23
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Ragnarok.Crunkie said: »
So with the new Skirmish II gear, does the base gear beat out the mani gear rank 15 or does it have to be augmented with DA+2 to win? I'm just curious since it doesn't mention in the gear guide on the front page.
depends on the piece tbh, like legs and hands win either way I think. except tenryu hands win until augmented. Feet you will need +2 to beat the already +2... Also somebody mentioned a balance of crit and DA augments. And I would be really interested in how this would turn out compared with impetus and crit+ gear from maybe uk'ux and such and how much double attack you would need for this to matter.
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By Ragnarok.Crunkie 2013-08-29 22:39:04
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Thanks. Just trying to keep up with all this gear and make sure I'm not slacking!
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-08-30 01:40:15
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Shiva.Tedril said: »
Idk I already thoroughly explained one page ago why thaumas coat is overrated, with no counter argument other then the spreadsheet says so... However I explained as to how it can very much be overrated and why the spreadsheet can miss what a parser can see.

Actually, pchan's argument on this point is the easiest explanation: variance.

Manibozho body only has to deal with the basic variance in how much damage each hit does; Thaumas body has to also deal with the variance in how many extra attempts to swing are made. That extra variance means that there's a much larger range in how much damage you're doing at any given point in time, and individual observations (ie: parses) may show Thaumas as significantly better or worse than Manibozho under the same circumstances.

As a secondary effect on real-world usage, Thaumas also loses a small bit of its potential when fighting lots of regular mobs, since at least some of the time the extra hits are going to proc on the killshot round and be wasted. The spreadsheet only looks at the idealized form, though, and I don't have any estimates on how much is likely to be lost from that overage. A bit of napkin math indicates it may be as much as 0.5% of total DPS for mobs with 10k HP; double that for 5k HP mobs, halve it for 20k HP mobs, etc.

Leviathan.Dragonlord said: »
I don't know if the spreadsheets factor in the chance that additional hits may go over 100tp and therefore lose efficiency.

They do. Pchan made sure I wasn't lazy in that regard, and set up proper probability distributions.

The main local variance in that regard from the spreadsheet is the average over-TP value. I set it at 0.5 rounds, but that just comes from the best, most consistent values I've seen from my own (and a few others') parses for highly aggressive play. It's very easy for it to go higher, very difficult for it to go lower.

However it is, once again, an average value (and only an estimate, really, as well). A period of 0 over-TP compared with a period of 1 round of over-TP can greatly skew the apparent value in a parse observation. A quick look on the spreadsheet shows a 4% loss in DPS going from 0 over-TP to 1 over-TP.


Shiva.Tedril said: »
However it is a simple fact that there is lots of things that cannot be understood by a simple formula. However you can account for some tp overage, the only real way to see this correctly is if you were to actually simulate rather than spreadsheet with dps and try and find how things will line up.

There are definitely lots of things that are abstracted away in the spreadsheets. *Most* of them can be safely ignored, I think, as long as you're using spreadsheet-to-spreadsheet comparisons. It may not match actual real-world data, but a configuration that's 5% ahead on the spreadsheet should also be about 5% ahead in actual usage.

However it also doesn't mean that you can't understand where those sorts of issues come into play if you have a decent understanding of the spreadsheet, and take the time to look at all the details it's telling you.
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By pchan 2013-08-30 01:51:33
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You should all bend to me for fixing the spreadsheets !
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By Bahamut.Shirai 2013-08-30 02:48:57
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Otomis said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
Scoreboard's DPS estimate is as accurate as you could hope for if you reset it right as your fight begins.

Not saying it is not accurate, just saying it seems rather limited. Kparser is what I use, it gives great information across all fields.

Scoreboard can give quite detailed information as well, although I haven't figured out how to pour all that data into a spreadsheet.
To me personally though, it doesn't really matter as I use it primarily for on the spot analysis.
With the right report arguments I can get pretty much all the info I want like acc, critrate, average ws damage, DPS and of course my own performance vs. that of the rest of the group.
All which I can also paste in LS chat if other people want to know their performance.

With the right arguments added I can do this per mob/player as well, although I usually just reset the data once we reach the zone boss as fights like Matamata and Craklaw severely screw the data up.

Sure, Kparser might be more detailed, but (please correct me if I'm wrong) I need to have my chatfilters turned off for that, no?
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2013-08-30 02:50:12
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Otomis said: »
Phoenix.Suji said: »
Scoreboard's DPS estimate is as accurate as you could hope for if you reset it right as your fight begins.

Not saying it is not accurate, just saying it seems rather limited. Kparser is what I use, it gives great information across all fields.

//sb stat acc and //sb stat crit for acc and crit rate data.
It also gives the number of samples.
Kparser however gives more details.
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