Vere Vs Spharai

12k SS is better than staff or club...? You should be doing almost three times that much with Cataclysm (aside from Rani's -DT).

Nope. First hit only.

oh? I thought it was only the second hand?

or do you mean it can proc on any hit of that second hand even if it DA/TA/QA's, while spharai is only the first hit of the first hand?


and uh, is this a srs question? o.O


ummm, wouldn't rani be resistant :o? (but i'd think w/e nova would do better on rani... or hell, even smite for a light sc, ***can be 2 shotted that way.)

From the mnks with vere I know the odd doesn't proc on the second fist just like every other H2H weapon functioning like a duel wield. according to BG the vere odd does not proc on second fist.

This.

I seem to recall Sanguine working fine but could be wrong, haven't bothered brewing anything in ages.

Nah. BG knows better, try harder next time.

this is bg, no? >_>;;

(lol i think night posted in that thread saying the same thing...)
Q_Q and he beat me to posting the same thread link D: kinda, mine's just a shorter page.

I could also find some screenshots of it proccing on second hand if you care.

Is this even a question? Omg Spharai....should be even more clear now since Smite getting gimped kkk

I guess I just haven't brewed much. Cataclysm did about 6k max when I used it on Rani (Celeritas Pole). I'm interested in being corrected if I can do better.

I thought the 2.25 was every hit. In that case, VS isn't as good as I thought (still fantastic). Does that mean FH is only 3.0 on the first hit? And what about, say, Rampage where the fTP is .5, would every hit after the first be 1.0? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

Final heaven is a single hit ws like all the relics.
:only the first on rampage too. only a few weapon skills carry over ftp to other hits.

I was under the impression ALL hand-to-hand WS were at least 2 hits. Thanks for the additional info though. Just checked the fTP secion on BG and found where it says every hit after the first is 1.0.

New fTP totals (add up all the hits):
Shijin Spiral: 5.3125 (5.8125 w/ gorget and belt. This one has higher fTP on all hits.)
Final Heaven (w/ Spharai 25% boost): 4.0 (*1.25 makes it more like 5.0)
Asuran Fists: 8.0
Victory Smite: 5.25 (but better cause it can crit)

Shijin Spiral does not carry initial ftp through all hits.

It's simply 5.0625 assuming all hits land, and a 5% attack bonus according to BG

Now that I examine the wording on BG, I see that the 1.0625 is only specified for the first hit.
From what I heard, the new (merit) weapon skills work differently than others; testing shows that with Ruinator, among others, the fTP bonus from elemental belt/gorget carries over to all hits, giving SS significantly more damage. In that case, using both belt and gorget would boost total fTP on it to 6.0625. My numbers before were with only one or the other by mistake.

Edit: Made some minor wording adjustments. Also, I don't know if this is still relevant:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4917114&viewfull=1#post4917114

Each testing is only relevant to that specific ws. Shoha and Shijin, for example, do not share that property.

The only ones I know of that the gorget and belt carry over are the ones where the ftp of the first hit = the ftp of all the other hits

That's disappointing, but oh well. Thanks for the info! My numbers were way off, but I think I'm on the right track now. Sorry if I derailed the thread...

I'm surprised nobody commented on my DPS numbers from page one; everyone seems to be focusing entirely on the weapon skills. Monk has traditionally been a job about damage over time rather than burst damage.

For me the whole point was if Shijin would be a big enough number boost to carry Spharai through Vere's ODD.

That's the whole smart *** comment of "Don't forget about Vere's ODD" I made on first page, because I assumed no one was stupid enough to forget.

Least the thread made more progress.

My biggest issue was spending 150m on plates really worth it when the next trial would be even worse (most likely 2500 rift)

Vs just making a Sph and having a cake walk of trials compared to vere.

Now the 99 Sph trials might be worse than previous but would a 95 sph beat a 90 vere is the main issue here as thats where id be stuck for a very long time

I have both and i use relic just cause im proud of it. Dmg wise they are about even using 95 relic vs 90 vere

Is this implying that Verethragna ODD can occur on multiple hits? Which would be wrong. Verethragna ODD happens only on the second fist, but doesn't occur on DA/TA/multi-hit. Spharai TripleDamage occurs only on the first fist, but does not occur on DA/TA/multi-hit. In essence, both effects don't occur on more than one hit per round.

Spharai TripleDamage is 12% rate, which is equivalent to 24% ODD rate. But Verethragna ODD is 30% but an aftermath, while Spharai is full time. So Verethragna rate goes down if you aren't able to WS continuously within 30secs, which would involve battles with frequent pauses in between, or mobs with abilities that sleep or immobilize or prevent WS.

So Verethragna ODD is not a 'blow-spharai-out-of-the-water' idea (which people seem to think it is), but just a minor plus, depending on the situation.


Also, where did the 'lower-delay = faster tp gain' idea come from? from the 2005 NIN forums? SE nerfed that effect a long time ago. Now, unless you're below a threshold (I forgot what it was, but NIN-full-haste-full-dual-wield-low-delay-katana low), this is not the case.

Triple damage is around 13% (should be 13 1/3%) on those relics which is equal to 20% ODD, not 24% or whatever. So, Verethragna wins in damage from that. And getting TP isn't an issue in any content unless you're amnesiaed or encumbered.

Lower delay doesn't always lower x-hits, and when it does it may increase ws frequency due to attacking faster. Vereth has much lower delay and will ws more frequently than spharai.

Please know what you're talking about before stating facts.

which is pretty much most of the content, unless we're still doing abyssea here.

Also, whether or not the lower delay increases WS frequency, it will increase the amount of double damage procs. The chance will still be the same obviously, but because you're hitting faster, the number of procs will be higher.

this was interesting news to me because on the test server vere's ODD proc'd mainly on the offhand (95 version) during my test session.

Take this with the wind, but based on what I've seen:
Inside abyssea (heaven vs smite) : Vere.
Outside (using spiral vs smite) : Spharai.
(Not very good ws sets for smite , spiral , or heaven used).
Also keep in mind that Ascetic's is not a joke in abyssea and a spharai mnk could use it to balance the difference that vere outputs.
(Smite still clearly winning).

I'm actually amazed at the counter rate the 95 spharai has, I took almost no damage in abyssea 1 hit out of 30+ monsters, whereas with vere I was cure waltzing myself every 2 monsters after the first 2.

If you want to talk about facts, please do some simple math and elaborate for me. As far as I see it:

30% ODD, 100 attacks, 50 damage per hit
70*50 + 30*100 = 6500
24% ODD,
76*50 + 24*100 = 6200
12% TripleDamage
88*50 + 12*150 = 6200

As for delay, are you forgetting monk base delay?

275 + 51 = 326, 8.5 TP per round
275 + 86 = 361, 9.3 TP per round

Over a 1 minute period
3600/326*8.5 = 93.8 TP (Verethragna)
3600/361*9.3 = 92.7 TP (Spharai)

Fair enough, a 1.1 TP disadvantage per one minute. You may think this is a lot, but if you WS every 30 seconds, that is Verethragna getting 0.55 TP advantage every WS. Now think, how many times do you WS at exactly 100%? If you barely overshoot and WS at just 101% TP every time, the advantage is eliminated.

It seems the facts aren't with you.

DPS figures like that have been an obvious red herring for a long time now, most people probably ignored it.

Sorry, this just isn't true.

The threshold you're referring to is 180 delay/hand, but there's a more gradual increase before that point. Picture form:

Speaking of which, MNK delay for each hand falls within that region with MA VII.

Math:

Hold all relevant stats (haste, multiattack, STP, hitrate) other than raw delay equal, such that they can be ignored due to having an equal impact on each weapon.

Base delay: 280-5 from Tantra +2 = 275

Spharai: 275+86=361 = 180.5 delay per fist
TP/hit is exactly 5.0

Verethragna: 275+51=326 = 163 delay/fist, 4.8 TP/hit

(4.8/163)/(5.0/180.5)=1.06306748=6.3% advantage in TP gain

I could do it the long way and show you attacks generated per unit time but it comes out exactly the same way.

You're forgetting that H2H TP gain is calculated like Dual Wield and you have to divide the delay by 2 to get delay/fist. This error is reducing the impact of the delay difference.

It's still the same proportional effect.

Vegetto says otherwise. According to his testing:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17519-New-Monk-Weapon-skills/page6

What's all this lack of consensus going on around here?


So basically... choose the one that fits what you do as a monk.

but don't forget to cap fDEX / pSTR ^ weight of a sandwich on Pluto during Earthsday facing Sorth-weast eating only Dhalmel Steaks.

The numbers show....

To clear it up, it can only occur on 2nd(RIGHT) fist never 1st but it can occur several times in da or ta proc within one attack round. - Fact not opinion.

Look at all the OPINIONS floating around here - even those backed up with fancy math are nothing but opinions and everyone has a right to there own. So the way I see it you are all right.