Vere Vs Spharai

So after finishing Vere in what seemed like an eternity they will be nerfing smite oh yay.

So the question is .. do i continue to upgrade Vere with the 150m metal plates or just make a Spharia :/

Havent seen any parses with 90 v 90 or anything so figured id ask.

Thanks

To be honest, I can't show you the parses I have made, due to Kparser registering Shijin Spiral as an "Ability" and not as a ws. Spharai with shijin outside of Abyssea does a little bit more than Victory Smite, with imp Victory smite wins.

But that is only talking WS vs WS, the ODD on Vere make VS the overall better weapon/WS combo. After the update though, I can pretty much assure you that Spharai/Shijin Spiral will win hands down. But that's just me, from my testing.

If they fix that part of Kparser or if there is another parser that doesn't suck to set up, I can show you using parses.

Tl;Dr Spharai/Shijin Spiral will win after nerf.

i figured it would i just hate that i sunk 10m into vere already due to chloris being a pain in my ***

I don't feel like reediting that post, to clarify before people "might" ask, for those parses I was using WS gear, now i'm not sure how to show gear sets in forums but I was using this set up for Victory Smite;

Vere // no sub // no rng // Thew bomblet
Aias Bonnet // Ire Torque +1 // Vulcan's Earring // Brutal Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2 // Heafoc Mitts // Pyrosoul Ring // Rajas
Atheling Mantle // Black belt // Hachiryu Haidate // Tantra Gaiters +2

Not the best, as some would be picky about Rancor Collar / Belt, or argue about using eponas instead of one of those two rings, but as you can see its not horrible.

Now as for Shijin, I was using AH bought gear and i'm missing about 20 DEX;

Spharai // no sub // no rng // Tantra tathlum (get demonry core)
Aias Bonnet (oce head) // Gorget // Thunder pearl // Brutal
Ocel harness // Kacura Mittens (hachiryu) // Thundersoul // Epona
Atheling Mantle // Artful Belt (+1) // Byakko's // Kacura Leggings (Scopuli Nails)

As you can see I have a lot better WS gear for Victory Smite rather than Shijin Spiral, and yet Shijin will do the same/couple 100 more, pre-update.

Unless you plan to swap your weapon everytime Impetus is down, don't bother with Spharai.

Their both, obviously, top tier hand to hand weapons. If a slight advantage one way or the other is enough to make you go through the process of making and entire relic after almost making an entire empyrean, then, that's your prerogative for sure. But, consider the overall lack of agreement on any "which is better, x or y?" type thread here. There's not very often any universal agreement - which makes sense, because everyone plays differently, with different people, against different enemies. On the things that people do absolutely agree on, you should really look at the numbers. Many times you're looking at a <1% increase.

I'd say, figure it out this way: Do you like your Verethragna? If yes, keep it. If no, build something else.

Even then there should still be a strong degree of consensus given a specific set of conditions. You've got the wrong root cause.

Your average for smite should (According to Kin) only drop 50 points post update for smite. If that's your only basis to say spharai/spiral will be better, you're gravely mistaken.

This quote from the "Victory smite nerf testing" thread is the reason i base it off why I "THINK" Shijin will win. To be honest it doesn't bother me if i'm wrong for I suck bad at online arguements because I suck at explaining. If thats only 50 dmg drop from a 5% at 100 then so be it, vere will obviously win.

It won't make a bit of difference because I will use Shijin more, because I ballista, and plague is one nasty thing to deal with. But that just goes down into how each person plays and the situation.

I just gave my input because half the time people ignore or don't give good reasons just "HURR NO USE VS CUZ IT'S BETTER I KNOW ET", least I tried.

Ok, so, we all need to make Spharai and use Shijin Spiral because ballista is relevant content.

Herp.

Yeah... and it's people like you are why I hate argueing online. I said it doesn't matter which one was better because I ballista, which is why I made it and I use Shijin.

Your obviously the guy who likes to pick one sentence and make it look like my whole input was just around ballista or some nonsense. The reason I said it is because that's why I tested it to see which is better.

You obviously don't give a ***so why are you even in this thread? He asked something, I gave him an honest reply and here you are trying to pick apart my commments. Are you really that bored?

Spharai damage procs can only occur on the first hit of the main hand and are otherwise equivalent to 20% ODD, Verethragna can proc on any offhand hit.

Just something to keep in mind.

Lets keep something in mind thats been spammed in every conversation on sph or vere on any site in any forum.

so if it's relic vs empy. why are u comparing VS to shinjin instead of to final heaven?

lol

You're the one asserting Spharai will beat Vere "hands down" post-nerf, something is obviously missing here and I went with the first logical option that hadn't been posted already. It might win, but I can't see it winning a straight damage contest by a large margin.

As a sph owner even I know final heaven isn't great. Only place it's any good is yet again, ballista. And no i'm not making a "hurr durr only get sph if you want it for ballista" pull here.

Honestly if you like monk enough, and your thinking of a relic, you'll make Spharai.

I swear, if someone asks a question hardly anyone answers, but when there is someone who will give you an answer there are trolls who will come in on their high horse and go "NO YOUR WRONG HERE'S EXAMPLE A, B, AND C". Why didn't you just do a legit response with all your back up besides a whole "No it's not. Someone said this, so i'm right. /thread".

The *** is wrong with trying to be nice and give a legit response to what I know? It's not like I know about every other test on BG or on here, only from what i've seen and done. Christ

mnk is the only dd I have contemplated lvling after drg, I would have assumed FH was actually strong because back at 75 it was. I wan't trolling

I crunched some DPS numbers (not that it's the only metric considering the weapon skills). All DPS numbers are single-fist, with the level 99 version of each weapon.

Hand-to-Hand skill 447 + Base Delay 275
Spharai: 17.285
Verethragna: 17.300 (win)

Skill 440 Delay 275
Spharai: 17.119 (win)
Verethragna: 17.116

Skill 447 Delay 280
Spharai: 17.049 (win)
Verethragna: 17.039

Skill 440 Delay 280
Spharai: 16.885 (win)
Verethragna: 16.858

As far as the level 99 Spharai and Verethragna go, they're about equal as far as DPS math goes, but there is more to consider. Spharai have that triple damage thing going for them, as well as the broken counter rate. Vere seem to have the Weapon Skill advantage though, which could balance things out.

Verdict: Get whichever one you want. They're both fantastic, and you won't be gimp due to either of them.
Additional thoughts: These things both destroy other weapons because you always punch at least twice. Doubling these DPS numbers puts them far ahead of anything else, except maybe NIN dual-wield relic + empyrean, unless I'm mistaken as to how DPS works.

What? Final Heaven has never been strong.

Going to have to agree on this one.

only time I saw it in use was when I Was doing the damn VWNM, when you force pop them b4 empy. came out, and it was much stronger then Ast.F mnks on those mobs.

Just a quick comparison of total fTP multipliers:

Shijin Spiral: 5.3125 (5.8125 w/ gorget and belt)
Final Heaven (w/ Spharai 25% boost): 7.5
Asuran Fists: 8.0
Victory Smite: 9.0

In general, the secondary (stat) mods will make them all outperform Asuran Fists. FH and VS both have 60% mods, and SS has 100%. VS pulls way ahead though because it can crit, so VS is hands-down the best of the listed weapon skills for damage unless you have 999 dex (brew), in which case SS most likely wins.

I've yet to troll and have hardly been uncivil, so please don't invite me to start doing so. I will take you up on the offer and your butthurt will grow exponentially.

So, let's get the useful stuff out of the way while we still can. TP gear is straightforward and identical, WS set obviously differs between the two. Spharai will have a ~27 attack lead over Verethragna as well as a higher base damage, but attacks slower. After adjusting for DA/TA we find Spharai to be slightly (~1%) ahead in pure melee damage assuming level one ODD aftermath on Vere. Obviously in Voidwatch the situation will be a little different with near-fulltime AM3 for Verethragna. This number is fairly consistent, though full buffs will favor Vere slightly and capped fSTR and attack will obviously hamper the weapon with that stat.

Weaponskills play out a bit differently. Verethragna's lower delay is notable here, giving it an advantage in WS frequency. With Berserk and Impetus down, Shijin Spiral is ahead of Smite by a fairly good margin (~10-15% depending on race/gear, sets I'm using register in at 11% on Hume). This brings Spharai ahead of Verethragna by about 3.5% with Impetus and Berserk down. With Berserk/Impetus up, the situation reverses itself but not to the same degree (~1.6% with my WS sets). Now that Vere is superior in both TP and WS damage, it pulls ahead by about 1.4%.

Combine the two values with appropriate time splits for buffs up/down and Vere 90 has them almost exactly identical, with a <0.5% advantage for Spharai.

So, not a hands down winner. Nonetheless, very strong... there are situations that favor Verethragna (staggered fights leading to increased Impetus uptime, free use of AM3 and 300 TP weaponskills, certain buffs), but also situations that favor Spharai (ability to exploit counter, dispelled buffs, inability to consistently maintain any level of Vere AM, other buffs). No clear overall winner as a general weapon, though I'd still say Spharai's utility bears much weight in certain situations... 99 weapons may lend some weight to Spharai unless relic 99 is actually harder to finish than the 95 empyrean trial given the existing barrier of plates. 99 Spharai vs 90 Vere will obviously favor Spharai.

EDIT: corrections

Relic bonus is not fTP and your Smite number appears to be way, way off. Also, weaponskills that aren't magical nor crit are hardly ideal choices for brewing.

EDIT: and pretty sure Shijin doesn't get the fTP across all hits thing.

I cannot find the testing, but someone did the test with Vere for Victory Smite and Shijin Spiral, and Victory Smite won by about 1%, and with Imp up it shot up to about 5-6%.

Now the reasoning behind it for me using Spharai, 9 more base damage with 30 atk, would help increase the damage difference than just using it for Vere.

That was the whole concept of my post, but obviously Victory Smite wins 1 v 1 on ws, but it's a whole new weapon using it. Point trying to make, using a different weapon would up the % for Shijin.

If i'm wrong that's cool, just giving input.

Nightfyre


***wasn't even direct at you, I mocked you out of anger while being pissed at *** face.

Spharai and Verethragna seem to be about equal in TP gain after crunching the numbers actually. The higher delay also translates into more TP per hit.

What's the trial for Spharai 95-99 like? If it's easy enough, I would think the 99 Spharai would have a clear, if small, lead over the 90 Vere.

Could hardly be butt hurt about this post anyways, it makes sense and you've given out reasons other than "i'm right, you're wrong."

I just said what i'm thinking, and for anything SE can still change the nerf on VS and it can go lower, all i'm saying is spharai doesn't suck like 90% of FF population believes, and I always knew ODD would be the downfall for trying to compare.

Try using Shijin Spiral for brewing. It's certainly way better than using staff or club. I don't have VS so I can't compare it to that, but I did do about 12k SS on Rani.

As far as the fTP numbers, no, the Spharai FH bonus is not fTP . I just did that to show a more accurate comparison of the damage you're looking at. I probably could have put it better. Also, Victory smite is 2.25 fTP per hit. 2.25*4 = 9. I did say total fTP multipliers, which I meant as fTP * # of hits. Sorry for any confusion. The gist of my post remains the same though, with VS having a large lead in any case.