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My Thoughts on Evasion Skill Vs. Evasion +
Fairy.Usua
Server: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 446
By Fairy.Usua 2010-03-12 11:16:58
Carbuncle.Zanno said: this is as bad as religion. Why does everyone insist on pushing their beliefs on others?
Jesus wuvs u <3
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Carbuncle.Zanno
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2849
By Carbuncle.Zanno 2010-03-12 11:40:30
Fairy.Usua said: Carbuncle.Zanno said: this is as bad as religion. Why does everyone insist on pushing their beliefs on others?
Jesus wuvs u <3
I dont love him back! so there! ha!
Bet he gonna curl up in a corner and cry now >:D
Server: Kujata
Game: FFXI
Posts: 928
By Kujata.Argettio 2010-03-12 15:12:22
Wait a minute.
We are measuring how fast a PLD is dying as a measure of the evasion vs skill.
Doesn't boxer mantle have a bunch of other stats that reduce the amount of damage you take, like idk, parry skill or shield skill?
That 'test' is flawed in more ways than the US justice system.
Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3087
By Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha 2010-03-12 15:14:11
Kujata.Argettio said: Wait a minute.
We are measuring how fast a PLD is dying as a measure of the evasion vs skill.
Doesn't boxer mantle have a bunch of other stats that reduce the amount of damage you take, like idk, parry skill or shield skill?
That 'test' is flawed in more ways than the US justice system.
They were not engaged if I even cared to read correctly, so parrying has nothing to do with it, but the test is indeed extremely flawed.
Server: Kujata
Game: FFXI
Posts: 928
By Kujata.Argettio 2010-03-12 15:16:33
Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha said: Kujata.Argettio said: Wait a minute.
We are measuring how fast a PLD is dying as a measure of the evasion vs skill.
Doesn't boxer mantle have a bunch of other stats that reduce the amount of damage you take, like idk, parry skill or shield skill?
That 'test' is flawed in more ways than the US justice system.
They were not engaged if I even cared to read correctly, so parrying has nothing to do with it, but the test is indeed extremely flawed.
My point was, Ohat vs Boxer mantle (engaged or otherwise) is not equal to skill vs evasion.
Unless both PLD took their shield off?
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Server: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2400
By Garuda.Hypnotizd 2010-03-12 15:17:30
if they're facing away shield cant proc
Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3087
By Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha 2010-03-12 15:18:56
Kujata.Argettio said: Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha said: Kujata.Argettio said: Wait a minute.
We are measuring how fast a PLD is dying as a measure of the evasion vs skill.
Doesn't boxer mantle have a bunch of other stats that reduce the amount of damage you take, like idk, parry skill or shield skill?
That 'test' is flawed in more ways than the US justice system.
They were not engaged if I even cared to read correctly, so parrying has nothing to do with it, but the test is indeed extremely flawed.
My point was, Ohat vs Boxer mantle (engaged or otherwise) is not equal to skill vs evasion.
Unless both PLD took their shield off?
Would have made it a whole lot more accurate, but I bet they didn't, naked with nothing but O hat Vs Boxer on equal level mobs using a parser for EVA rate would be a good/better test.
Server: Fairy
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Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-12 15:20:55
nvm signet is engaged onry, but it's still a shitty test.
Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3087
By Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha 2010-03-12 15:23:42
Fairy.Vegetto said: Also, did both have or not have signet? if one had and the other did not...
Good point, etc etc
I believe the British cat had been commissioned to preform a 1000 round test? :O
Asura.Ericka
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 703
By Asura.Ericka 2010-03-12 15:43:29
Leviathan.Remu said: ::Note::
This Page is originally intended to post my long response to comments made on the Elusive Earring page, found here:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=14761
Just so you're not completely lost on parts.
That said, this is still a forum, so feel free to post your responses to my thoughts like normal.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I have been thinking long and hard about the difference between Evasion Skill and Evasion . I have been looking over other people's opinions and thoughts to see what if any of it make sense, and I have come up with this:
There is indeed no direct documented proof that Evasion Skill is better than Evasion . That is true, and it's hardly debatable. But there is a lot of indirect proof that it most likely is more important.
The most basic and obvious thing, is that there is a lot more Evasion Gear than there is Evasion Skill gear. After stating the obvious, you have to think of the reason why?
Common sense is telling me that Evasion Skill is more important. I won't say I have proof of it, but it's pretty obvious that there's some difference, most likely case is that skill is more beneficial.
I found I really liked Grondell's statement, for it seemed to make a lot of sense. Evasion skill is capped out at 75, the most being 276 evasion before merits. Like us, mobs will have at most an evasion skill of 276 at level 75 following the curve, for every Monster has a job, and skill levels are based on jobs.
Evasion skill , being from Merits or from gear itself, would thus raise your skill level higher than your current job level, thus giving you a base evasion of a higher level following the skill curve. At this point, Evasion gear will just make you evade better at that level, making up for any accuracy a monster has, after ignoring the skill level difference from mob level.
Thus, evasion gear would enhance your ability to evade at your current skill level, just like Accuracy helps you hit at your current skill level. So stacking Evasion gear in slots that don't have Evasion Skill -would- give you the most Evasion possible.
I won't say that 1 Evasion skill = 2 evasion, seeing as there is no documented proof, but I will also say that it is very easy to believe.
Now, the other part of this post I wanted to deal with Arivale's comment.
First, you're right, there is no Dark Magic , only Dark Magic Skill . But you're ignoring a VERY obvious fact:
There IS Magic accuracy and Magic Attack gear.
It's just like if you look at Weapon Skill gear, they add to your base weapon skill, thus to your base attack and accuracy. After a certain level, the bonuses from skill is lessened, this is true, but it's also getting two things in one, for you get Attack and Accuracy in one part rather than having to get them in different slots, which is why Weapon Skill gear is so great and rare.
Though I cannot think of another thing Evasion skill would grant bonuses to like Weapon Skill does (attack and accuracy), I have to believe that it has a greater impact on overall evasion. Such as adding more evasion than normal evasion gear could.
All of this leads me to believe that Evasion Skill is has more of an effect than Evasion on gear.
Not to sound like an old Fart here but, Did you focus this hard on your school work? >.>
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Phoenix.Jovant
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 234
By Phoenix.Jovant 2010-03-12 15:47:48
i picture Evasion skill and Evasion+ like this: (excuse my paint drawing >.>)
Green: being evasion skill
Purpule: being Evasion + equipement (the rate on how fast it goes back in foruth)
White: Mob connect to your body.
ok the amount of evasion Skill+ equipment increase the green on your total bar (capps at whatever cap is)
and the Evasion + Gear increase the rate on how fast the purple bar goes back in fourth... this is just how i picture things to be... i also picture the same with most things we do within the game >.>;
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Server: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2400
By Garuda.Hypnotizd 2010-03-12 15:50:03
You know, I think I'll actually do this test this weekend with a parser.
Anyone have a problem with me using a white mandy in the tree to cut 1000 attack rounds to 500? If they attack once every 5 seconds should take about 42 minutes to get 500 attacks in.
I can watch a movie or something while doing both parses np.
Server: Kujata
Game: FFXI
Posts: 928
By Kujata.Argettio 2010-03-12 16:03:59
Quetzalcoatl.Rumaha said: I believe the British cat had been commissioned to preform a 1000 round test? :O
It was a joke, I don't have time or patience to do it.
And to get and decent correlation you would need 5-10k samples.
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Diabolos.Ghlin
Server: Diabolos
Game: FFXI
Posts: 461
By Diabolos.Ghlin 2010-03-12 16:10:03
i find it interesting OP compares magic accuracy to skill, and accuracy to skill, but in both instances, skill is actually slightly worse than the raw stat rather than better.
Server: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-12 16:18:49
Doing a small test just for some starter results. I'd do a full test, but my internet tonight is limited so I won't be on game long. 30 mins of 1 and 30 mins of the other. cape terrigan have 1 bunny and 1 lizzy on me
Server: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-12 16:31:18
Edit: May do more testing tomorrow if have time w/ mandies. Damn lizard *** up my second result by using evasion down tp move (needs moar blockhead).
Server: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-13 10:59:56
kk used to different parsers. (which are a slight bit off from each other since I couldn't start/stop at the EXACT same time. Ohat vs Boxer's
Direct Parse, Ohat (both mobs):
KP Ohat (both mobs):
KP Ohat (Crawler):
KP Ohat (Mandy):
Direct Parse, Mantle (both mobs):
KP Mantle (both mobs):
KP Mantle (Mandy):
KP Mantle (Crawler):
So w/ DP totals, looking at less than a % of difference.
W/ KP totals, looking at half a percent of difference.
Mantle was sitting at 63% for the majority of the test, getting lucky w/ the mandy in the last 5 mins (i can recall 15+ evades in a row).
So if each one of those % was a shadow. In the same amount of time you'd expend 35.02 shadows w/ mantle, you'd have expended 35.58 shadows w/ ohat.
Like I've been saying the entire time, the difference is so little, there is virtually no difference between the two. had the test gone longer, I have no doubt the two number would have become even closer.
Server: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2400
By Garuda.Hypnotizd 2010-03-13 11:31:55
Ok, I did my testing and here is the gear that I used:
Food:
Tavnazian Taco
Base:
Terra's Staff
Shark Strap
Lamian kaman +1
Kabura arrow
Iron Ram sallet
Parade gorget
Ethereal earring
Loquacious earring
Iron Ram hauberk
Iron Ram dastanas
Hercules' ring
Jelly ring
Cerberus mantle
Trance belt
Blitzer poleyn
Iron Ram greaves
Click images to enbiggen
Base:
Ohat:
Boxers:
Necro Bump Detected!
[370 days between previous and next post]
Carbuncle.Luthian
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 100
By Carbuncle.Luthian 2011-03-18 18:56:17
Why test on easy prey? Your evasion is going to be capped and you could likely test naked and get similar results within a % margin due to chance. Besides who cares if you can evade too weak or EP mobs? I want to see some parses on Tough or Very tough mobs, hell someone should run a test against all the cons. I bet we'll find a more significant difference between evasion and evasion skill against high level mobs. I imagine there is a scale at which low level mobs show evasion + to perform better than evasion skill and vice-versa against higher level mobs where evasion skill would win out. I'd test myself but PS2 limitations ^^b
Bahamut.Wakabo
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 467
By Bahamut.Wakabo 2011-03-18 19:00:34
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By Serj 2011-03-18 19:00:40
[+]
::Note::
This Page is originally intended to post my long response to comments made on the Elusive Earring page, found here:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=14761
Just so you're not completely lost on parts.
That said, this is still a forum, so feel free to post your responses to my thoughts like normal.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I have been thinking long and hard about the difference between Evasion Skill + and Evasion +. I have been looking over other people's opinions and thoughts to see what if any of it make sense, and I have come up with this:
There is indeed no direct documented proof that Evasion Skill + is better than Evasion +. That is true, and it's hardly debatable. But there is a lot of indirect proof that it most likely is more important.
The most basic and obvious thing, is that there is a lot more Evasion + Gear than there is Evasion Skill + gear. After stating the obvious, you have to think of the reason why?
Common sense is telling me that Evasion Skill is more important. I won't say I have proof of it, but it's pretty obvious that there's some difference, most likely case is that skill + is more beneficial.
I found I really liked Grondell's statement, for it seemed to make a lot of sense. Evasion skill is capped out at 75, the most being 276 evasion before merits. Like us, mobs will have at most an evasion skill of 276 at level 75 following the curve, for every Monster has a job, and skill levels are based on jobs.
Evasion skill +, being from Merits or from gear itself, would thus raise your skill level higher than your current job level, thus giving you a base evasion of a higher level following the skill curve. At this point, Evasion + gear will just make you evade better at that level, making up for any accuracy a monster has, after ignoring the skill level difference from mob level.
Thus, evasion + gear would enhance your ability to evade at your current skill level, just like Accuracy + helps you hit at your current skill level. So stacking Evasion + gear in slots that don't have Evasion Skill + -would- give you the most Evasion possible.
I won't say that 1 Evasion skill = 2 evasion, seeing as there is no documented proof, but I will also say that it is very easy to believe.
Now, the other part of this post I wanted to deal with Arivale's comment.
First, you're right, there is no Dark Magic +, only Dark Magic Skill +. But you're ignoring a VERY obvious fact:
There IS Magic accuracy and Magic Attack + gear.
It's just like if you look at Weapon Skill + gear, they add to your base weapon skill, thus to your base attack and accuracy. After a certain level, the bonuses from skill is lessened, this is true, but it's also getting two things in one, for you get Attack and Accuracy + in one part rather than having to get them in different slots, which is why Weapon Skill + gear is so great and rare.
Though I cannot think of another thing Evasion skill + would grant bonuses to like Weapon Skill + does (attack and accuracy), I have to believe that it has a greater impact on overall evasion. Such as adding more evasion + than normal evasion + gear could.
All of this leads me to believe that Evasion Skill + is has more of an effect than Evasion + on gear.
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