Null Gear For Frazzle/Distract 3 Or...

You haven't documented this in the wiki, which states that only skill affects potency.

Yes ..... because no neither MND nor INT effect potency, only skill. Just like only MND effects Paralyze and Slow potency.

I mean I guess Addle II isn't' effected by +Enf Potency because it only mentions MND...

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Addle_II

+Enf Potency effects all enfeebles with potency values. Paralyze, Slow, Distract, Frazzle, Blind, Gravity, Poison (I and II), Dia (DoT) and so forth. It doesn't effect Bio because that's not enfeebling magic.

I mean sure, but Slow II also doesn't list enfeebling magic potency increasing the effect...so...by this logic, all the wiki pages need updating!

The ones that state that potency is affected by magic skill only while it's also affected by Enf Potency, yeah?

I didn't get your Aristotelian train of thought here.

There are spells affected by "enfeebling magic effect" (the stat which appears on gear like lethargy sayon). Some examples include slow 2 and poison 2, but there are many.

There are some spells not affected by EME, such as sleep, bind, dispel, etc.

The message I quoted was pointing out that the poison 2 page lists enfeebling magic skill's affect on potency, but not the fact that EME effects it.

I pointed out that other spells, like slow 2, also don't list this fact on their pages and implied that if the standard we want to hold ourselves to is to spell everything out on the individual spell pages in crayon, lots of pages will need updating.

If a spell potency is affected by something other than magic skill, and the wiki shows a formula that has magic skill only, that's wrong information.

Sometimes using crayon for clarity is better than eating it. Not sure which one you are advocating for.

Update the wiki if you want but lets not forget when these formulas were made enfeebling potency wasn't even a stat back then. Its pretty obvious to anyone with 2 working brain cells to rub together that when an enfeebling spell has a potency that enfeebling potency gear will work on it.

If anyone actually cared to read the updated guides on this very forum they will see the formula for enfeebling magic WITH enfeebling potency equipment

floor(floor((Base Potency × Saboteur) + {dStat Modifier}) × (Enfeebling Magic Effect+ Gear))

As you can see Enfeebling potency gear applies right at the end of the formula making effect+ gear extremely strong and an absolute must for your enfeebling sets.

I'm not necessarily advocating for one or the other, or at least it wasn't my intention to do so with either of my posts. My point was just the one I made: poison 2 doesn't list this stat because none of them do. They also don't list (if relevant) the enhancement offered by saboteur or quick draw.

Unfortunately this game is damn complicated so in order to have a true understanding of something as complicated as enfeebling, you have to read more than 1 page to get a full picture.

If you, or someone else, can think of a clearer or more concise way of consolidating all this information on one page, I'm all for it. I also think it's perfectly understandable in its current form, given enough effort, critical thinking, and if necessary, asking (informed) questions.

I hope you see the contradiction here yourself.

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Yeah, no doubt these guides, especially the RDM one, are always super helpful. I was just replying to Maletaru deep and philosophical argument whether or not Wiki should have the correct information.

I don't. I'm afraid you're going to have to bust out the crayons for me too.

I said the pages don't include every detail, which means you need to read more than 1 page. I also said that if we (as a community, since it's a wiki) want to include all those details, lots of pages need to be updated. Probably at least 20, but possibly more TBH.

How are these statements contradictory?

Try using crayon for drawing next time. It should help.

What pertains to the topic - a formula, which the Poison II page has, is not a page.

See how this is not a page? It's just one line?

floor(floor((Base Potency × Saboteur) + {dStat Modifier}) × (Enfeebling Magic Effect+ Gear))

Are you saying I need to read more than one page of information on Poison II to get to this formula? What are you advocating for here?

Here's another example: Burn. Nowhere on this page does it say that:
It's enhanced by the relic feet or relic legs.
It can be enhanced by Quick Draw.
Merits can increase the duration and/or potency
Potency of stat down scales with INT

So you have to read the Quick Draw and Elemental Debuff pages for this info.

If you want a single page to tell you everything you could ever possibly want to know about that spell, go for it. I personally find the consolidation under "umbrella" pages a lot more helpful, especially when they're applicable to a broad range of spells rather than specific to this one spell.

Repeating all that information on every single spell page turns it into a cluttered mess, and anyone with a pulse who knows what a hyperlink is can get the information already.

...Sure, there's an opinion. I wasn't giving them earlier, I was just stating a fact. IF the community decides it's better to put that info on Slow II, they have about 20 more pages to update as well, because the trend has been to include general information on general pages, and specific information on specific pages. If people want to reverse that and have an idea how to make it digestible...I'm all ears. I think it's probably going to be a giant mess though, TBH.

I'm saying that if you put this formula on the page, it's still incredibly easy to nitpick that "all the information" about Poison II still isn't on there.

You forgot to include how resistance ranks and immunity work on Poison II.
What about Rayke, how does it affect these resist states?
Can Poison II be affected by Manifestation?
Aren't undead monsters immune to Poison?
Doesn't Poison cause enemies to wake up?
What if the enemy has Stoneskin on?
You didn't include any information about Quick Draw
Are there any other ways to apply Poison II, like Nectarous Deluge?
You didn't include the enfeebling magic duration calculation on this page
What about the difference between enfeebling magic duration augments and enfeebling magic duration stat on gear?

...And probably 100 other things I'm not thinking of. How is someone supposed to get a true understanding of how Poison II works if you don't include all the Poison II information on the page?

The game is complicated. You need to read more than 1 page to understand all situations that might affect a spell or ability.

Or you can make the page a *** mess by putting everything on every page.

Back with your old tradition of falsely attributing quotes to people to make a point, eh?

You still haven't answered how adding this formula to the Poison II page would require me to read other pages to know that Enfeebling Magic affects Poison II potency:

floor(floor((Base Potency) + {dStat Modifier}) × (Enfeebling Magic Effect+ Gear))

I know you will use your typical exaggeration as dodging mechanism, but it's ok.

That formula shouldn't be on the individual spells anyway as only RDM gets any notable enfeebling magic effect+ gear and jobs like SCH, BLM, WHM and DRK get only 1 piece but still get enfeebling spells. What it should be on is the Enfeebling magic overview page, that lists everything about enfeebling, but its not on there.

Again anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together will be able to understand how the equip works.

You guys are right. For some reason I thought it was specifically excluded from enfeebling potency gear and only affected by skill. Not sure where I got that.

In other news, I've been gearing poison wrong the whole time.

If I wanted it to be a quote (of a person) I would've quoted a person. Do you think the only use of quotation marks is to literally quote the exact words that another person said? If you'd like me to make it more clear for you then:
You say that this formula should be on the Poison II page (after I already made the comments you are griping about). You are saying that all the necessary information to understand the Poison II calculation isn't on the page.
I am implying that even if this formula WERE on the Poison II page, someone else could say that "all the information" isn't on the wiki page. By THEIR definition.

The point of the quotes is to highlight that "all the information" is an opinion/spectrum and not a fact. It's up for debate.


I've never made this claim at all, so I have no idea why you think I said this. You're misreading and/or misunderstanding me, and I don't feel the need to defend your strawman of my point.

Also: this formula is already on the wiki, DEEPLY hidden on the enfeebling magic page, where no self-respecting RDM would ever find themselves.

While we're on the topic of dodging, I noticed you still haven't told me how the two quotes you put up earlier contradict each other. Would you like to explain that one to me, or are you still {Perfect Dodge}ing? You chose the quotes, would you like to point out the parts of those quotes that are not consistent with each other?

Nah, I don't think you are trying to quote people. I think you don't have a good argument so you use quotes to pretend someone is saying what you are expecting to him say.

What I said is that it's a fair point to add that Enfeebling Effect+ increases Poison Potency to a Poison spell, which is an enfeeble.

But according to you, adding that information to the Poison Wiki would insult the wizards.

Wow it is there.. i just clicked on the potency link to take me to that section of the page. Well clear as day for all to see!

Some enfeebles have base potency based on MND (Paralyze/Slow/Addle), some on INT (Blind), some by Skill (Poison II), some by stat and skill (Distract/Frazzle III) and some by nothing (Poison/Dia). It was trying to say that Poison II's base potency is only effected by skill and not by INT or MND.

Its much like +Weapon Skill Damage, the individual weapon skill pages do not specifically list WSD as applying to them, yet it's the assumed position that it does by default. +Enf Potency is the WSD of enfeebles, it applies to anything that uses enfeebling skill. Though it's kind of hard to "Sleep" 80% harder lol.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Addle_II
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Distract_III
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Poison
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Slow_II
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Poison_II

:Edit:
I double checked and Poison II is using the same standard template that all the other enfeeble pages are using.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Enfeebling_Magic

The main page lists the full formula which calls out both the Sab bonus and where +Enf Pot bonus's go.

Good points, Saevel!! I don't contribute to BG-Wiki, so who am I to suggest anything, lol. I'm amazed at how much work people have put into it.

I'm not arguing for or against how enfeeble potency works either. I was merely pointing out that the Poison page can add a comment about the RDM enfeeble effect.

Wizards in FFXI ah think that BG Wiki was made for the 1%, but it wasn't. Look at how detailed the Charm page is. A player new to BST would go to this page and get much of the information he needs. The WSD page also actually gives examples of things like belt, neck, sword(like Naegling) that can affect WSD, actually.

Unlike the HUHDUHH TWO MARBELS CRAYON UNWORTHY RDM argument (which I still don't know what they arguing in favor of? To have less information?), some pages have more information, and having more information is better.

Now, if I am new to RDM, and I see a formula for Poison that doesn't specify the Enfeeble Effect+, I might or might not go to other pages to validate this information. To say that BUtZ If U haz Threen MarBBlez u Be Gud Liek mE is just for the try-hards.

It would be the same as putting the entire WS formula on every Weapon Skill page, redundant and prone to error. Instead there is general purpose page describing the formula and each individual page describes how that specific spell calculates it's base value.

The generic WS damage formula page
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Weapon_Skill_Damage

Followed by the list of WS's

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Weapon_Skills

Savage Blade
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Savage_Blade

No where on that page is fSTR, pDiff, WSD, or how to calculate base damage. Instead it's just the stat mods, fTP values and SC attributes. People can take those and plug them into the generic WS damage formula to see the effect.

Except that there isn't a generic formula in the Savage Blade page right? But there is one in the Poison page not showing that the potency gets affected by Enfeeble Effect+.

You give me a formula for savage blade, the formula should take into account that WSD affects it. Savage Blade WS is affected by WSD gear just as much as Poison, an enfeeble, is affected by Enfeeble Effect+ gear. If you agree the poison page is correct, then you have to agree that the Savage Blade one is wrong.

I think calling things "right" and "wrong" is a misnomer. Is the WSD page linked above "wrong" also because it doesn't include the full PDIF calculation on it, as well?

Sometimes you need to go to a second page to get more information about a particular calculation. If you want more details, you can continue on to the next page to find more information.

Some people, like a DRK with no saboteur and no enfeebling magic effect gear, just want to know how to calculate their poison potency and don't need to know how saboteur will affect it.

Some people going to the Savage blade page just want to know the ftp mods or wsc mods, they aren't trying to manually calculate their weapon skill damage in a specific situation.

If people want to get into the weeds, they can learn more information by reading the more detailed pages. If a NIN goes to the doton:san page, they can't calculate their damage. If they want more details, there's a page for that.

I don't think there's *much* harm in including (optional) terms in the poison, slow, paralyze, etc pages, I'm sure it's fine. I also think someone who's read the pages of enfeebling magic or any piece of gear with enfeebling magic effect on it should be able to figure out what's going on without those details on the page of each affected spell.

No there isn't....

At this point you are arguing for the sake of arguing. You are trying to make the point that there is a logical layout of information behind these pages but even in your examples this logic doesn't apply.

Here is the page for poison II.



Here is the page for dia II



These two pages are enfeeble and despite what you guys have been saying, these two pages convey different details of information. Is dia potency affected the same way as Poison? Should quick-draw information be removed from one page, and a potency formula be removed from the other? What is even the point you are trying to make here?

To my point, seeing extra information on a spell page is always better. For example, seeing that I can upgrade dia with quick draw, right from the dia page helps put the information out there.

You can make the "effort" argument, but effort argument is an engineering one, orthogonal to the user experience one.

Gonna stop replying to this post because it's become circular at this point.

No....

Every enfeeble derives it's base potency differently, once you have that value you plug it into the generic formula listed here.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Enfeebling_Magic#Formulas

floor(floor((Base Potency × Saboteur) + {dStat Modifier}) × (Enfeebling Magic Effect+ Gear))

In the case of Poison II there is no dStat modified so that value becomes 0, otherwise drop the resultant potency into the base and multiply by Sab and Enf Magic Potency.

Yeah, I figured you would cast Deflectaga VI after you saw the dia-poison example.

I'm not disputing how enfeebling potency works. The argument has to do with how information is laid out. The available information in two different enfeebling spells are different. One has formula, the other even talks about quick draw.

Ok, now I'm gone.