Political Discussion Thread

A) Why aren't you guys looking at this from an economical standpoint? Being humanitarian is nice and all that, but if you actually think about it, all it comes down to is money. You know that phrase "Money makes the world go round"? Think about that phrase, and apply it to your life. You know that its true.

B) Why do you think that companies are out to get you? In that case, the guy sitting next to you is also out to get you, your family is out to get you, the government is out to get you, the Taliban is out to get you, Martians are out to get you, that bunny thats eatting a carrot in Ohio is out to get you. They are all out to get you. You better get off the internet now, buy a shotgun and as many shells as you can carry, and go live in a cave somewhere. Cause I'm out to get you.

C) Yeah, being able to make desisions based on logic and understanding is being a brainwashed tool. Reading about business concepts and companies ethics is following the system. If thats the case, then yes, I'm a "brainwashed tool." I'm one rich, powerful, controlling brainwashed fool.

D)

This is somebody who actually thinks and sees for himself what the government is planning to do with the healthcare system.

Nobody gave him that information, but he came to this conclusion all by himself. This is the point I have been trying to make, not by force-feeding you my opinion, but by creating thought into people's minds.

Now if you excuse me, I have a very important exam to study for, and the professor already gave out his predictions on what the class average is going to be: 40-50s out of a possible 100.

So, I'm going to bust my *** trying to get a 70 at least and prove him wrong.

LOL there goes Korpg again, "hermmm maybe if i talk about college , people will think i are smart, and agrees wif my political right wing nonsense!" Korpg your trust in the government frightens me ! I need my blankey!

Korpg i live in New Mexico , which you may not know is a part of the United States. This state is one of the least hit by the "recession," that is happening in the United States. By reading your many posts on here its seems you live a very privileged and sheltered life. Because the problems that seem to be plaguing the vanishing middle class of America don't seem to be your problems at all. You may think "well hey , not my problems." Wrong , when in fact that 80% of a nations wealth is controlled by the top 20% of American citizens, how is that equality? You can not have a democratic society with a capitalistic backbone , if anything that is the opposite way in making this illusion of equality.
You should probably think about taking some government classes at this school you attend. Of course though you will probably say you have already ha ha. Anyway , i would hope you don't read this because you should be studying for your ubber hard test LOL. You seem to be living like i said in a very privileged and sheltered life , or like many people you are living in an idealized form of the society you WANT to exist. That is a common problem with many Americans today, living in an idealized American society that is not there. You clearly reserve yourself with an ideology, since your at some university , you should try more the way of the scholar and not look at things from your biased point of view :).

Wheres my blankey !!!

Its equal opportunity not equal outcome.

I am. My last link gave several facts to be concerned about from an economic perspective.



Of course it's true. Greed. You hit the nail on the head. Enron, WorldCom, Triangle Shirtwaist, etc. There's quite a history of corporations and/or their upper management taking advantage of workers and consumers. It's what sparked the progressive era in America, which led to many of the new deal policies - governing the political landscape for the next 30 years.

The central dogma of business is to maximize profits and minimize costs within the boundaries of the law. Because of this, a business will (and has) exercise means to hit that ceiling. This often leads to the creations of more laws due to the moral bankruptcy that began the entire process.



The arguments brought forth thus far are not paranoia - they are reasonable concerns with a historical basis emphasizing the mess we're currently in. Taking it out of context and blowing it out of proportion only deviates your points.

It's not as if business are bad. There are a great many businesses that perform essential roles to our society and I myself spend the majority of my money at local stores and restaurants. It's not like I'm glaring at the clerk as she hands me my coffee in the cafe down the street while saying, "I know you're just out to get me!"

But you are gravely mistaken to think that we should trust any business whole-heartedly just because they're a business. You are wrong to think that we need not question any of their processes. How do you think regulations and laws were put into place to begin with?


What?! Wow, how were you able to read between the bill's lines like that?! I totally didn't see the government's diabolic plan to rule the health care market! We're now saved thanks to your keen intuition!

Instead of consulting historical data and other fun facts I'll now simply inquire to your infallible rants....err...opinions.

It still baffles me to know that people cry corporate imperialism when the government talks about entering a market despite that not happening in our country ever...in any market...even the army.

LOLEQUAL OPPORTUNITY! That's why out of all the modern countries in the world upward mobility is ranked among the hardest in the USA? Just because we fly the banner of an egalitarian democratic nation does not mean we are not as corrupt as countries like Russia etc. etc. Ninety percent of Americans do not rise above their parents economic bracket. As for the equal opportunity, ha ha then things like affirmative action and minority programs would not be alive and well. Wake up people just because we live in one of the least tyrannical governments doesn't mean ours is legitimate , they have just done a damn good job keeping the sheep exactly what they are.
I also love have Korpg has this idea , nay , this illusion that politicians are normal middle class citizens, these are people almost literally bred to be what they are; almost a familial aristocratic lineage of American politics can be traced back to our countries heritage. Don't get me wrong ha ha there is always exceptions to the rule like the GOVERNATOR, but hey c'mon being married to a Kennedy must help somehow !

In all honesty i do not blame the people in power , i blame US, we as citizens have let this country deteriorate into some of the sad situations that it has fallen into. American's on a large scale have abandoned what it is to be american, and what is that you may ask? Well for one, exercising your rights granted by the founders of this country, questioning the powers that be, challenging the status quo.
Nah but that would mean we would have to inconvenience ourselves right!!! Grumble grumble !

Lets look at it from an economical standpoint then. A Harvard study published in 2005 found that about half of those who filed for bankruptcy said health care expenses, illness or related job-loss led them to do so. Twenty-seven percent cited uncovered medical bills specifically, and 2 percent said they had mortgaged their home to pay what they owed. Now I'll acknowledge (and so will the original author of that report) that based on how you look at the facts the percentage might be lower, but it won't be substantially lower.


This is a straw man argument. I have never made the claim that all companies are out to get me. Furthermore, your examples are far fetched and not based in anything I've said. It is simply an attempt to paint my opinions as something radical.


I agree. I would not call you a brainwashed tool, for this is an ad hominem argument and not conductive to logical debate.


Health care costs are already rising to the point where they exceed the tax rebate companies get for providing health insurance to their employees. The fact that our companies have to provide health insurance to insure quality employees is a handicap that companies of other countries (i.e. most of the European Union) don't have to deal with. This makes it harder for our companies to compete. Meatcurtains's views may well be his own, and he's certainly entitled to them, but I'm afraid they are not based in fact.

Here is an easy to understand explanation of what we're looking at with regards to the American Health Care Debate.

I like this blindphleb guy!

ps. "I'm one rich, powerful, controlling brainwashed fool." That explains boat loads Korpg , i rest my case.......

Really liked that link.

k, you think this won't make healthcare even more expensive? Billing the government does not mean that prices will go down, it means that there are millions more people who will pay for it. Millions more people who will pay for your cosmetic surgery and let some poor guy with cancer wait in line.


k, you want to talk humanitarian? Here is a fact you refuse to acknowledge. Companies and owners/top ranking businessmen, you know, the "greedy son-of-***" you like to hate so much, contribute 95% of the world's charaties. Thats right, they are sharing their wealth more than you want to know. Ask Bill Gates how much money he has donated to the fight against AIDS. Ask Warren Buffet how much he donated to United Way. What about Michael Bloomberg? How about Larry Page? You probably don't even know them, but they are considered to have (as per Dabouncer likes to put it) "owners of the world's 80% wealth." Now, lets talk companies. Walmart (yes, Walmart, that evil corporation that you love to hate) has donated billions to communities across the world.

Now, to make a point: in order to survive, businesses has to make a profit and provide service to their customers. But that doesn't mean that they don't provide charity. They even provide charity outside of just giving the money away. But its too complicated without making a business model showing you how giving you a job is helping a homeless shelter in LA with donations. You wouldn't understand it, so I won't show it.



Almost all the fear in the world is based by paranoia. There is no justifiable or logical reasoning behind fear. That was the point I tried to make, but you refused to acknowledge the simple context that I put it under.

The bolded statement is showing my point I have been trying to make this entire thread. Of course there is bad businesses out there, but there are many many many more great businesses out there too. There is also methods and hints into determining bad businesses from good. Businesses have to give you, by law, a report of their yearly business activities, if they are traded on the stock market. Its a report, filed annually (aka the Annual Report), to the Securities and Exchanges Commission (otherwise known as the SEC) that gets audited (that means it gets check by an outside source to make sure that the numbers are correct) and shows their business transactions, their business ethics, and their business philosophy (meaning how they run their business). Most people would look at the "Management Annual Report" only, but those of us who actually want to see how the business is doing would look at the SEC Annual Report. Look at their financial notes. See why they reported XXX as YYY. And understand what is going on. Don't trust the media into doing the thinking for you, actually look into a business you want to look into yourself. If you think that business XYZ is a bad business (look into Walmart if you want to) then look into their SEC filings and see how they run their business.

Because of Enron, WorldCom, Sunbeam, Xerox, and other companies who try to "beat the system" with accounting misreprecentation, there was an act passed called the Sarbanes-Oxley act which basically made it very hard for companies to operate without following what is called the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (or GAAP for us accountant) to keep these accounting practices under control. Because of those companies mentioned, we have laws that tell us how we are supposed to report what, where, and why companies are doing what, where, and why they are doing. You basically got a free lession in accounting ethics that people should understand, but never read about.

Regulations are in place already, you don't have to worry anymore about ***like that anymore. Those who follow the laws prior to Enron have nothing to worry about, they are already following GAAP, and you never hear about those companies in the news. Media only concentrait on "offenders" and never "leaders" in business. You are only getting half the story, and you are basing you opinions on what is fed to you.



Lets use cause and effect then, with assumptions that you can think about it and come to the same conclusion:

Cause 1: Government is going to charge everyone up to $3,800 for people if you don't have healthcare.

Effect 1: Everyone is going to have to get healthcare, and it will most likely become the cheapest one available.

Assumption: We can assume that, with its near "unlimited resorces" (look at how Obama is paying for the loans and "stimulus package," by printing more money) that the govnerment's "public option" is going to be the cheapest out there. We can also assume, with that previous effect, that more people are going to go with the government's plan based on price, not on service.

Cause 2: Government is going to charge the insurance companies between 1% to 5.4% "tax" just to help pay for this plan.

Effect 2/Cause 3: Insurance companies are going to have lower profits and would have to charge more for their services.

Effect 3/Cause 4: People are going to drop their insurance premiums for cheaper prices (basic prinicples of competition).

Effect 4/Cause 5: Insurance companies are not going to be able to compete with the "cheaper" premiums.

Effect 5/Cause 6: Companies are going to go bankrupt, and lead to the cheapest being a monopoly, which, by previous assumptions, will be the government.

Effect 6: Government standards towards healthcare will decline, because there is no "incentive" to give out better care or to seperate people between each other.

You want proof into this? Look at England's healthcare system. Look at Canada's healthcare system, look at China's healthcare system. Look at every single government run healthcare system in the world and ask yourself this: Do I really want the American healthcare system to be like that?

You think this isn't going to be like Obama's healthcare system? Look at how England's healthcare system got to be what it is today. Boom, same thing all over again. It will just be delayed a little bit.

I doubt it, if you live in New Mexico, you would be showing your American flag because, right now, you main man Obama is leading the country down the path you want.

Even though many people are telling you and showing you facts and figures as to why its not the path you don't want to go, you still follow him blindly for whatever reason you choose to.

Right now, you should be proud to be an American, but yet, you are showing a different flag than the American Flag.

Don't tl:dr above.

Or below

Who's fault is that? Who's fault is it for them having to file for Chapter 11 period? Was it my fault? Was it your fault? No, it was their own fault to begin with. Is it because they couldn't afford insurance? No, it was because they choose to NOT buy insurance. Should we help them out? No, because it won't create a solution, it will just create more problems LIKE THIS in the future.


Again, point was, the biases in the world is created by fear, not by logic. Just because 1 company went bad and caused a lot of people like us to suffer doesn't mean that they are all the same way. Showing fear in that thinking just creates problems, not solutions.


Thank you



Ever stop to see why insurance companies are charging more for premiums?

You, or somebody, said that it wasn't because of lawsuits, but guess what. Do you think that lawsuits all happen in the same year that they were issued? You think our justice system is setup in a speedy and timely manner?

Maybe if you look at when the lawsuits were made, and when they were settled, and look at the time frames that the insurance premiums went up, and you will see that there is something going on. Then you would have to agree that the companies aren't charging you just cause they can.

That powerpoint slide was too onesided, so don't take that to be truth.

You might have a point, if only the source I posted didn't mention the following:

I'm sorry, but your idea that these are people that chose to be in this situation does not jive with reality.

How about you start showing some sources for your outlandish claims, instead of opinion hour with Korpg.

Where do you get the idea that there will be no "incentive" to provide better care? Right now there is not an "incentive" to provide better care, we pay doctors based on how many tests or procedures they preform. This is why a surgeon can make much more money in a year's time than a family physician. You bring up England's health care system, a single payer system, for which there is no similar plan being debated in our congress. Furthermore, in England's health care system doctors are given monetary incentive to provide better care for their patients not on what tests or procedures they preform, but on how healthy their patients are. The idea is simple if you are a good doctor you will have healthy patients and deserve more money, if you are a bad doctor your patients will be less healthy and you deserve less.

I'm not sure what your statement about separating people between each other is about.

Do I really want America's health care system to be like the rest of the industrialized nations? Hmm, tough one...

I never claimed the government is trying to pay for people's cosmetic surgery. Stick with the facts.

As far as your actual question, yes, health insurance will probably become more expensive no matter what we do. The idea behind the new bill is to devise a system by which the cost will not continue to rise at its current rate. In the long run it may even decrease, but that won't happen immediately.



I have never said that companies are not donating to charities. I haven't "refused to acknowledge" this and, in fact, commented on the importance of having businesses in this post you're responding to with a Limbaugh-esque methodology.



No one is debating the fact that businesses and successful entrepreneurs make huge contributions. I don't know with whom or concerning what you're trying to argue with this.



No, there's a reason why I used the word "paranoia" to describe your palm-reading of the insurance reform bill.

Paranoia: baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

Your horror stories of what is going to happen is not rooted in fact. (i.e., they're baseless)



This is incorrect.

Fear: a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.

The reason this country is examining health insurance reform is because the methodology you promote so much in your responses has utterly failed. As Blindphleb's last link pointed out, "...today we have a purely business-driven insurance model. Today, health care in America is a profit-oriented business where costs are mainly controlled by restrictive private insurers."

The result of this? Private insurance companies make remarkable profits during the recession while Detroit dies, Wall Street tanks, and unemployment reaches 9.5%. The very reason for which insurance companies exist in the first place - to keep costs down - isn't being fulfilled. It is not working. That's why this is not health care reform, it is health insurance reform.

Again, there are two things that insurance is supposed to do:
1) Keep costs down
2) Pay its shareholders: Remember it is a business.

They've been doing one of those.

So no, my fear of what will happen if we don't change the way in which health insurance is provided to our citizens is established in fact and rooted in the history of our country. The threat prompting this fear is real, not imaginary as you so effortlessly try to pass off.



I wasn't making a blanket statement that all companies are screwing us over and just need to be caught. I was responding to your "why do you think companies are out to get you" comment by showing the immense history of corporate behavior that's created the current regulations you so eloquently described. Basically, in answer to your question, "Why do you think that companies are out to get you" my response is, ultimately, because they've done so in the past. The result? Some of the regulations you just finished discussing.



Bolded above is the broad term you are using as the crux of your entire stance regarding insurance reform. Everything you've said has been your unsupported opinions or what you blindly assume to be waiting around the corner.



And here are the winning falsities. All of your opinions are derived from this paranoia - this baseless and excess fear that has been imagined. You create for yourself a scheme as to how this country is going to convert to "socialized" medicine like the rest of the world when in reality that would be a process needing many years and many more debates and many more votes to bring to full fruition.

In every market that the government has ended up participating in, private companies still exist and compete along side with the government. And guess what? People still choose those private companies over the government. It is done daily, and has been done for years. There is no historical basis for you to make that assertion on. What you say will happen hasn't come true in any market. This is even true for the military - a market that many consider to be completely operated by the government (Blackwater anyone?)

So I'm sorry, but I don't see why you continue to argue points that simply have no context behind them. They are simply irrelevant ramblings that excite the imagination to invoke passionate defense for an increasingly failing insurance model.

A) Where is your quote from? You said that you got it from your source you pointed out, but I looked all over it, and it didn't even have anything outside of what you wished to see, it didn't even show the full survey for me to decipher. It didn't even show where you got this:



So yeah, you have your opinions also. But you know what, people may have not consiously chose to live like this, but they did, and they are facing trouble, and they are asking the government for help, who I pay the bills for.

I don't need to show sources for these "outlandish claims" because guess what, they are common sense! Do I have to show you that the sky is blue and that if you touch fire, it hurts? If I do, then you need to stop typing period.

Well, as much as I think this sentence is indeed based on (somewhat limited) facts, having dealt with people from many places in the world, pretty much everyone on earth seems thinks their country of origin is superior in some way, no matter how irrational the entire concept seems, people keep believing it and sometimes even go as far as fighting for it. Even here people think they're smarter because we are a tolerant peaceful nation and ***like that (like we militarily have a choice).

Compared the the USA, the other nations just haven't had the media capabilities to massively market it worldwide for 5+ decades. This may be the main reason the USA are seen as more arrogant than all the other arrogant nations in the world, and well... to me that's BS... I went there a few times and the people I met weren't all that arrogant... lol >.>

Too much to read politics suck and I really don't like paying for others peoples mistakes and I don't care how callous and heartless that makes me sound. I will not pay for other peoples stupidity unless I have to. Also I probably agree with Korpg

It comes from the idea where people don't work for more than they are paid. If I ask you to do something for me for small pay, are you going to do your absolute best all the time? Or are you going to just get it done quickly and move on with your life? Without competition, there would be no point in you doing your best, because there is nobody to compete with you for me to go to if/when you fail.



If a doctor doesn't do good medicine, you go to a different doctor. Thats the "incentive" you need to do your best, cause you have competition. When everything becomes under one system, you can't choose your doctor, the person in charge of placement would assign you to a doctor, thats the general government's solution of buraucracy. Its efficent to have somebody in charge tell you which doctor to go to, because, in the government's eyes, all doctors are the same.


Because England's healthcare system is efficent. When the government takes over the healthcare system, they will come to a lot of problems until they deside to emulate a more efficent healthcare system, which currently is England. This is the future I'm talking about, I'm looking THAT far ahead. I don't want to live with that system.



Good for them, but while you are dying on the floor of a crouded emergancy room because you got shot in the gut, somebody inside is getting a nose job done because they have an appointment, and there is only so much room for procedures to be done. This example is extreme, but it still happens in England and Canada on a regular basis.


Their system works for them, but it won't work for us because we chose for our system to work for us. You also forget that the only things that get reported in the media are those who's voices are the loudest. Who's voice is louder: The complaining woman from Texas or the satisfied man from Ohio?

was linked in the original source I gave



When you make outlandish claims like this one:

Forgive me when I ask you to provide proof.

It's a sad day for humanity when people think intelligence has anything to do with whether or not you get ill. I'm sure the fact that Stephen Hawking has neuro muscular dystrophy is a testament to his great stupidity huh?

Whats the difference in the government's eyes? You are "paying" for cosmetic surgery as much as the person is "paying" for cancer. You both will pay the same premiums, you both should have the same rights. Get your facts straight.

The 2 quotes you said you didn't understand who I was talking to, I was talking to you because I quoted you on it, but you didn't understand what you said, so I will skip those.


How can they be rooted in fact yet? They haven't happened. But, I have shown you what will happen in what order by my cause/effect statment though. Read that please....



Progressive is making huge profits?

Allstate too? Here's a hint, check page 233 of their annual report

You are right though, State Farm did have a net profit last year, shame on them! Only 28% net profit from 2007, but still, those rich *** are stealing from the common man!

Point being, The big 3 insurance companies either, for the first time LAST YEAR, reported a net loss or, in State Farm's case, reported a net profit of just 28% of their previous year's earnings.

For shame! They are taking advantage of the situation. They are thriving while everyone else is failing....


1 business, you showed me one bad business. How many businesses have come and gone? How many regulations have been put into place because of that fire? You are talking about 1 bad business out of every 10,000. I don't know about you, but I'm willing to live with that type of ratio from good businesses to bad.



These assumptions are things you can come up with yourself. These are based off of logic of human behavior. Do you honestly think we are all machines? You have to compare logic with human behavior here!



Whats your predictions then? Everything will be all rosey and everyone will be happy with their services? You will like your healthcare and you wish that everyone opposing it will just go away?

Notice, however, that you didn't say anything about Cause/Effects numbers 1-4. Therefor you must agree that these might happen (notice I said might, because I can't fully predict the future, for all I know I could be wrong, but I'm predicting the most possible future based on past experiences and other countries's actions), so what are you expecting for the rest of the cause/effects? That everything will just go away?

Thats not going to happen.

I don't want to live here if we are going to live in a socialist society. There is no growth in any of that. Thats a fact! Look at Canada. Are they growing? Are they even trying? They are hanging on the tailcoat of America, trying to catch a free ride thanks to NAFTA. Look at Mexico, same thing! We move, but they ride.

I don't want to live in a society where America is heading right now. But thats happening right now!

Lets just agree to disagree, k?

I'm tired of saying the same things over and over with you which you refuse to read.

Yes because everyone who has gotten sick or hurt is because of some disease they couldn't help. It's an even sadder day when people don't realize that a very very large portion of todays healthcare cost are preventable and/or unnecessary coddling. Oh and guess what I bet you more money than I'll ever have that stephen hawking doesn't need a goddamn handout cause instead of taking the I can't route so many people do he still made something of himself. And for that matter people chosing to keep themselves near broke all the time and it is a choice for almost everyone who isnt way below our supposed poverty line is dumb and if you can't pay because of that then yes you made stupid decisions

Maybe you should provide some facts to debunk his claims?





Nice try, we're talking about health insurance. As far as I know, Progressive is primarily an auto insurance company. Allstate didn't list an option to buy health insurance on their website either. State farm does provide health insurance. The last two links you provided were broken.

Here is a link to better information about health insurance profits: Fackcheck.org Insurance Co. Profits: Good, But Not Breaking Records
Here are some snippets:


But it's not all roses for the insurance companies:

Remember we are in a recession.


The effort to increase access to health care does not = an effort to overthrow the current means of production. Take your tin-foil hat off.

Furthermore, some nations that have adopted universal health care models are actually more wealthy than the U.S. Such as Norway

Ok, let's say mommy or daddy lose their job, because the company they work for isn't bringing in the money it used to due to the economy. You're a college student, still under their health care, BUT that health care was provided by the parent who just lost their job. Now, all of a sudden, you have swine flu and need to be in hospital for the illness or whatever, but you don't have said health care. Are you saying you or your parent is dumb because they got laid off from the job that provided your health care? Hmm...

While I agree that many of our more costly health care expenses are do to preventable illness, how do you intend to solve that problem by restricting access to health care? What solutions do you offer? Surely it isn't purely an isolationist ideology.

Too bad you would loose that bet.
Stephen Hawking did need a handout, in fact he has claimed that:

I liked the links you posted earlier, Blind, and think you and Skiutah are doing a really good job of calmly and sensibly debating this issue. Hoping it doesn't end now ala "agree to disagree," but I understand there's only so much that can be said on the issue. Regardless its been very interesting to read so far. BG has some pretty length debate topics on healthcare as well, but the whole "BG is full of retards and meanies" stigma keeps some from ever checking it out.