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FL Bill Would Imprison TSs for Using Bathrooms
Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-08 16:35:45
No one can provide data supporting the idea that a transgender person is a rapist. No one claimed that. It was implied.
You guys are the ones playing games. I keep asking "Why should a woman feel uncomfortable?" and I keep getting told "Because." That's not an answer and, more to the point, not an answer that justifies legislation. Any sentence that begins "There ought to be a law..." is probably wrong for exactly that reason.
Provide a valid justification for why the LAW, something you *** are so happy to hate in other circumstances, needs to intervene in this situation. As I said, I can provide solid data showing why we need racially-segregated restrooms. There's ZERO data showing why transgender people should be subject to felony charges for going into a locking stall to evacuate their waste.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-08 16:37:19
I keep asking "Why should a woman feel uncomfortable?" and I keep getting told "Because." That's not an answer and, more to the point, not an answer that justifies legislation. Ask a woman then.
Better yet ask the guys' wives/girlfriends.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-08 16:39:46
No one can provide data supporting the idea that a transgender person is a rapist. No one claimed that.
Right, a bunch of men feel icky about the idea of a trans woman being in the women's restroom because.... They'd feel less icky about them being in the men's restroom?
It's a completely incoherent thought worthy of people who live solely by knee-jerk emotional reactions to things that they don't like or understand. It's not solely the men. As a matter of fact all the men here were talking about how their female partners would react. By extension of them being a relationship, even more if they have children, the man is just supporting his woman feelings.
Incoming sexist accusations.
I'm sorry, that's beyond paper-thin. Men NEVER support so strongly baseless emotional reactions by their girlfriends/wives. My wife refuses to leave the toaster plugged in from some irrational fear that it will cause a fire. I'm not about to push for legislation to make it illegal to leave a toaster plugged in because she can't wrap her head around the idea of a circuit breaker.
They are using their others' feelings as a way to bolster an idea that has as little merit with it as it does without.
You don't want trans men/women using your restroom anymore than you want them using the one that "matches what's between their legs", you just don't want them using the same restroom as "normal" people.
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Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-08 16:42:46
The women I have asked think this legislation is ***.
Now tell me why this law needed to be passed, male.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-02-08 16:46:39
I can understand the want to be accepting of others, but how about the comfort level of those of us who aren't LGBTQ?
I think this line sums up the whole argument pretty well.
Basically, it's just conservatives saying 'What about ME' vs liberals saying 'What about THEM', as always.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-08 16:46:46
No one can provide data supporting the idea that a transgender person is a rapist. No one claimed that.
Right, a bunch of men feel icky about the idea of a trans woman being in the women's restroom because.... They'd feel less icky about them being in the men's restroom?
It's a completely incoherent thought worthy of people who live solely by knee-jerk emotional reactions to things that they don't like or understand. It's not solely the men. As a matter of fact all the men here were talking about how their female partners would react. By extension of them being a relationship, even more if they have children, the man is just supporting his woman feelings.
Incoming sexist accusations.
I'm sorry, that's beyond paper-thin. Men NEVER support so strongly baseless emotional reactions by their girlfriends/wives. My wife refuses to leave the toaster plugged in from some irrational fear that it will cause a fire. I'm not about to push for legislation to make it illegal to leave a toaster plugged in because she can't wrap her head around the idea of a circuit breaker.
They are using their others' feelings as a way to bolster an idea that has as little merit with it as it does without.
You don't want trans men/women using your restroom anymore than you want them using the one that "matches what's between their legs", you just don't want them using the same restroom as "normal" people. Using your toaster example.
If someone in your state passed legislation, independent from anything you or your wife did, on keeping toasters unplugged, and let's say your wife heard about it.
Would she support it?
Would she ask you to support it?
Would you?
What would happened if she heard you talking negatively about it if she supported it?
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-02-08 16:50:50
I can understand the want to be accepting of others, but how about the comfort level of those of us who aren't LGBTQ?
I think this line sums up the whole argument pretty well.
Basically, it's just conservatives saying 'What about ME' vs liberals saying 'What about THEM', as always. No one is discriminated against when society insists bathrooms are separated by sex.
Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-08 16:52:44
Basically, it's just conservatives saying 'What about ME' vs liberals saying 'What about THEM', as always. What about anyone?
Who, male, female, or trans, enjoys using a public toilet? It's an uncomfortable necessity. I loathe going anywhere near them and am only slightly happier having a filthy toilet to piss in than finding a tree somewhere outside.
The question is how does the presence of another person in a bathroom actually affect you? Does anyone here like having another guy in the bathroom with them? The shape of his or her genitals is so far down the list of ***to be GENUINELY uncomfortable about.
You want to make legislation that makes public toilets more comfortable, make a law that spreading ***all over the seat and pissing on the floor will get you a six-month stint in prison. And as someone who has cleaned hospital and restaurant bathrooms, I guarantee that men and women alike make toilets look like a murder just happened.
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Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-02-08 16:54:37
I can understand the want to be accepting of others, but how about the comfort level of those of us who aren't LGBTQ?
I think this line sums up the whole argument pretty well.
Basically, it's just conservatives saying 'What about ME' vs liberals saying 'What about THEM', as always. No one is discriminated against when society insists bathrooms are separated by sex.
That's nice. We've all be at this long enough to know that anyone smarter than a chimp is capable of coming up with some nice sounding arguments to support their position, but that doesn't change the fact that at the core of the matter, it's just 'what about me' vs 'what about them'.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-08 16:54:42
The women I have asked think this legislation is ***.
Now tell me why this law needed to be passed, male. Are they straight and in a relationship?
Personally, I couldn't give 2 *** about it. I neither support nor condemn it. I've heard both sides, and I understand where each is coming from. If the decision was up to me, that's a whole other story. This matter is so dumb to me, putting any thought into what I would do would only waste brain cells.
Most of the bathrooms here are unisex. When I was in the U.S., I hardly ever used public restrooms, except to piss in.
Couldn't care less who else was in there, or even if they were trying to sneak a peak. Take a picture it'll last longer.
American women on the other hand, I highly doubt feel the same way. I don't know for sure, just going on what guys say their wives reactions are.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-08 16:54:47
No one can provide data supporting the idea that a transgender person is a rapist. No one claimed that.
Right, a bunch of men feel icky about the idea of a trans woman being in the women's restroom because.... They'd feel less icky about them being in the men's restroom?
It's a completely incoherent thought worthy of people who live solely by knee-jerk emotional reactions to things that they don't like or understand. It's not solely the men. As a matter of fact all the men here were talking about how their female partners would react. By extension of them being a relationship, even more if they have children, the man is just supporting his woman feelings.
Incoming sexist accusations.
I'm sorry, that's beyond paper-thin. Men NEVER support so strongly baseless emotional reactions by their girlfriends/wives. My wife refuses to leave the toaster plugged in from some irrational fear that it will cause a fire. I'm not about to push for legislation to make it illegal to leave a toaster plugged in because she can't wrap her head around the idea of a circuit breaker.
They are using their others' feelings as a way to bolster an idea that has as little merit with it as it does without.
You don't want trans men/women using your restroom anymore than you want them using the one that "matches what's between their legs", you just don't want them using the same restroom as "normal" people. Using your toaster example.
If someone in your state passed legislation, independent from anything you or your wife did, on keeping toasters unplugged, and let's say your wife heard about it.
Would she support it?
Would she ask you to support it?
Would you?
What would happened if she heard you talking negatively about it if she supported it?
1. No, because it's not something that needs to be legislated.
2. No, because she knows I'd tell her it's moronic and unnecessary.
3. I'm very opposed to legislating based on feels.
4. Nothing, because I don't feel the need to support everything she does or vice versa.
And, there's one massive difference between the toaster example and the actual law, trans people aren't toasters, and they are now faced with the prospect of further alienation/abuse or possible jailtime if they dare to use a public restroom. What happens when a FTM uses the womens' restroom and has the police called for being a man in a women's restroom? Do they then have to show everyone their genitals to avoid going to jail?
It's pathetic that a relatively small group of people are allowed to impose their archaic ideals on everyone at the severe cost of an even smaller group.
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Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-02-08 17:04:29
trans people aren't toasters Damn...and here I had this awesome idea for a new business.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-08 17:04:37
I would love to see how that would play out for real, rather than how you think it would go.
I wasn't trying to bring the analogy full circle though. It was more focused on supporting your wife's decisions, regardless of if you agreed personally.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-08 17:07:31
I would love to see how that would play out for real, rather than how you think it would go.
I wasn't trying to bring the analogy full circle though. It was more focused on supporting your wife's decisions, regardless of if you agreed personally.
Supporting her decisions when there is little at risk is one thing, supporting a law that causes real harm to an already at risk population is a completely different thing.
I let her unplug the toaster because, honestly, I couldn't care less if I have to replace it or the outlet a few years sooner. If her irrational hangup caused other people distress or worse, yeah, I'd tell her to look elsewhere for support.
I do think it's comical how men think women are so emotional and in need of affirmation that they can't bear to have a different view and be ok with it. It's incredibly condescending in a way. My wife and I disagree on many things, and we don't bother to force our will on each other, it's a really unhealthy way to build a relationship.
By fonewear 2015-02-08 17:09:25
Sherlock Holmes will get to the bottom of this mystery !
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-08 17:11:45
I would love to see how that would play out for real, rather than how you think it would go.
I wasn't trying to bring the analogy full circle though. It was more focused on supporting your wife's decisions, regardless of if you agreed personally.
Supporting her decisions when there is little at risk is one thing, supporting a law that causes real harm to an already at risk population is a completely different thing.
I let her unplug the toaster because, honestly, I couldn't care less if I have to replace it or the outlet a few years sooner. If her irrational hangup caused other people distress or worse, yeah, I'd tell her to look elsewhere for support.
I do think it's comical how men think women are so emotional and in need of affirmation that they can't bear to have a different view and be ok with it. It's incredibly condescending in a way. My wife and I disagree on many things, and we don't bother to force our will on each other, it's a really unhealthy way to build a relationship. Probably why the divorce in the U.S. is so high.
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By fonewear 2015-02-08 17:14:14
See the problem with women is...well they are women...
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-08 17:14:21
I would love to see how that would play out for real, rather than how you think it would go.
I wasn't trying to bring the analogy full circle though. It was more focused on supporting your wife's decisions, regardless of if you agreed personally.
Supporting her decisions when there is little at risk is one thing, supporting a law that causes real harm to an already at risk population is a completely different thing.
I let her unplug the toaster because, honestly, I couldn't care less if I have to replace it or the outlet a few years sooner. If her irrational hangup caused other people distress or worse, yeah, I'd tell her to look elsewhere for support.
I do think it's comical how men think women are so emotional and in need of affirmation that they can't bear to have a different view and be ok with it. It's incredibly condescending in a way. My wife and I disagree on many things, and we don't bother to force our will on each other, it's a really unhealthy way to build a relationship. Probably why the divorce in the U.S. is so high.
What is why the divorce rate in the US is so high?
By fonewear 2015-02-08 17:15:12
I would love to see how that would play out for real, rather than how you think it would go.
I wasn't trying to bring the analogy full circle though. It was more focused on supporting your wife's decisions, regardless of if you agreed personally.
Supporting her decisions when there is little at risk is one thing, supporting a law that causes real harm to an already at risk population is a completely different thing.
I let her unplug the toaster because, honestly, I couldn't care less if I have to replace it or the outlet a few years sooner. If her irrational hangup caused other people distress or worse, yeah, I'd tell her to look elsewhere for support.
I do think it's comical how men think women are so emotional and in need of affirmation that they can't bear to have a different view and be ok with it. It's incredibly condescending in a way. My wife and I disagree on many things, and we don't bother to force our will on each other, it's a really unhealthy way to build a relationship. Probably why the divorce in the U.S. is so high.
I blame desperate housewives that don't take. For the rest of your life as ...the rest of your life.
Plus feminism.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-08 17:17:21
I would love to see how that would play out for real, rather than how you think it would go.
I wasn't trying to bring the analogy full circle though. It was more focused on supporting your wife's decisions, regardless of if you agreed personally.
Supporting her decisions when there is little at risk is one thing, supporting a law that causes real harm to an already at risk population is a completely different thing.
I let her unplug the toaster because, honestly, I couldn't care less if I have to replace it or the outlet a few years sooner. If her irrational hangup caused other people distress or worse, yeah, I'd tell her to look elsewhere for support.
I do think it's comical how men think women are so emotional and in need of affirmation that they can't bear to have a different view and be ok with it. It's incredibly condescending in a way. My wife and I disagree on many things, and we don't bother to force our will on each other, it's a really unhealthy way to build a relationship. Probably why the divorce in the U.S. is so high.
What is why the divorce rate in the US is so high? The bold
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By fonewear 2015-02-08 17:17:58
But opposites attract ! I heard it in a song. Songs never lie.
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By Jetackuu 2015-02-08 17:21:57
A circuit breaker wouldn't necessarily prevent or stop an electrical fire. But I hope your house is to code.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-08 17:41:17
A circuit breaker wouldn't necessarily prevent or stop an electrical fire. But I hope your house is to code.
My dad is an electrical contractor, I assure you it's the safest house in the neighborhood, but that's beside the point.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-08 17:43:00
A circuit breaker wouldn't necessarily prevent or stop an electrical fire. But I hope your house is to code.
My dad is an electrical contractor, I assure you it's the safest house in the neighborhood, but that's beside the point.
In the stereotypical experience, those two things are a contradiction.
Not saying he is one of those type, just generally...
By Bloodrose 2015-02-08 17:43:46
A small percentage of contractors make a bad name for the real ones.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-08 17:44:57
A small percentage of contractors make a bad name for the real ones. I'm aware, I've met all kinds.
By Bloodrose 2015-02-08 17:49:39
Unfortunately, that "small percentage" keeps growing every year.
Also, I want to see Skip Bedell and Adam Carolla catch more contractors.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-08 17:50:32
A circuit breaker wouldn't necessarily prevent or stop an electrical fire. But I hope your house is to code.
My dad is an electrical contractor, I assure you it's the safest house in the neighborhood, but that's beside the point.
In the stereotypical experience, those two things are a contradiction.
Not saying he is one of those type, just generally...
Stereotypically, I don't half-*** the safety of my family.
By Bloodrose 2015-02-08 17:52:36
You may not, but stereotypically, others half-*** the safety of someone else's family every day.
Which is the crux of the problem for good contractors.
The bad ones want to make a quick buck, lie, cheat, steal, and leave ***worse than before they touched it.
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Garuda.Chanti
Server: Garuda
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-02-08 17:52:48
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florida_bill_would_imprison_trans_people_for_using_public_bathrooms Slate
Quote: Gay marriage has been legal in Florida for a month now, and at this point, even the state’s hardcore conservatives seem increasingly resigned to the fact that marriage equality is here to stay. Accordingly, Florida’s more bigoted legislators have decided to turn their ire toward another maligned, disfavored minority—trans people—by proposing one of the most viciously sadistic, hypocritical bills the legislature has ever considered.
The basic purpose of the bill is quite simple: to forbid trans people from using the public bathroom that matches their true gender. According to the bill’s text, any trans person who enters a “single-sex public facility” that doesn’t match their “biological sex” is guilty of a first-degree misdemeanor. A “single-sex public facility” includes bathrooms “maintained by an owner of public accommodations, a school, or a place of employment”—basically, any public bathroom in the entire state. Any trans person who violates the act could be sentenced to one year in prison.
It gets much, much worse. Any non-trans person who discovers a trans person using a bathroom that doesn’t align with their “biological sex” would be permitted to sue that trans person under the act. (If sued successfully, the trans person would have to pay their accuser’s attorney fees.) And, in a final turn of the screw, an “owner of public accommodations, a school, or a place of employment” who allows a trans person to use the bathroom of their true gender is liable for a civil suit. In other words, if a store owner does not actively prevent trans people from using her bathrooms, she can be sued by other customers. And of course, if the trans-friendly store owner is found to have allowed a trans person to use the bathroom, she’ll not only have to pay damages to disgruntled customers—she’ll also have to pay their attorney’s fees.
The obvious intent of this bill is to humiliate trans people by opening them up to criminal and civil liability merely for performing the most basic of bodily functions. Trans people already face harassment, discrimination, and sometimes violence while attempting to use the bathroom. This bill would effectively give anti-trans harassers the state’s blessing, while providing them a new avenue through which to shame trans Floridians—the court system. Many trans people are already anxious about using public bathrooms; some are afraid to leave their homes given the risk of verbal and physical abuse they face in public facilities. With this bill, the state would effectively legalize anti-trans harassment, sending a resounding message to trans people that they are not welcome in public life.
But perhaps the galling component of the bill is its astonishing interference into private businesses. For years, conservatives have been complaining that LGBT non-discrimination ordinances impede the liberty of business owners. These businesses, conservatives argue, should have the freedom to conduct their affairs however they so choose—even if that means kicking out gay customers who want to buy their products. With the tables turned, however, Florida’s right-wing legislators have changed their tune, arguing that private business owners should be forbidden from letting trans customers use their bathrooms. This intrusion into the autonomy of businesses is as hideously hypocritical as it is unsurprising. Most conservatives are only willing to defend business owners’ rights so long as they’re exercising their right to discriminate against LGBTQ people. When businesses wish to tolerate LGBTQ customers, conservatives have no problem passing a law restricting their liberty.
It is probably too soon to tell whether Florida’s bill will pass—though given this legislature’s track record, any bill designed to demean a sexual minority has fair odds of becoming law. Either way, the mere existence of such a mean-spirited bill sends a blunt message to the state’s trans community that they are not welcome here. It was probably inevitable that, once the marriage equality debate settled down, those who dedicate their lives to promoting hatred would set their sights on trans people. But the maliciousness and celerity with which Florida’s legislators have zeroed in on the trans community suggests the next battle for LGBTQ rights will be a brutal one.
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