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FL Bill Would Imprison TSs for Using Bathrooms
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-10 15:14:33
Again I will ask, where is the overwhelming evidence that the assaults on trans people is overwhelmingly because they are legally required to use the bathroom associated with their sex. Despite that one can logically follow your train of thought, I could just as easily say, if you let people claiming to be transgender into opposing bathrooms, some people who aren't transgender will claim to be transgender just so they can get into an opposing bathroom.
So where is your overwhelming evidence?
Well why do we separate bathrooms by sex today? Why would I get arrested if I just strolled into the women's room?
That's not necessarily illegal, actually. This law is aimed at making it illegal. However, if you enter the women's restroom with the intent to see or do something illegal, that wouldn't change with the law. The issue is that supporters are talking about it being uncomfortable to have a penis in the women's restroom, when most of them couldn't pick a transgender woman out of a lineup.
By fonewear 2015-02-10 15:31:08
If only America focused on something important like creating jobs not creating restrooms !
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Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-02-10 15:37:06
The issue is that supporters are talking about it being uncomfortable to have a penis in the women's restroom, when most of them couldn't pick a transgender woman out of a lineup.
Are you constantly scared to be sexually assaulted by homosexuals while using the urinary?
Why do we separate bathrooms based on sex today? Both of you completely ignore the basis for societies current practice.
Why are they going into the wrong bathroom? To commit a crime, probably peeping, maybe something far worse like theft, assault, or rape. What presently stops me from pulling on a dress and going into the women's room to commit a crime? NOTHING. What changes if transgender people are allowed to go into the "wrong" bathroom with no intent to commit a crime? Nothing
If someone wanted to go into the womens room to commit a crime, there isn't anything physically preventing them from doing so today except for the fact that they are relegated to not go in there in the first place. So if a guy happened to be in the womens room, someone would say "hey, you're not suppose to be here" and complain. Under the wishes of the trans lobby, you just have to feel like you belong in there to justify your presence.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-10 15:50:02
Why do we separate bathrooms based on sex today? Both of you completely ignore the basis for societies current practice. There are two reasons. One is simple logistics: women can't use traditional urinals. The second is Victorian fear of the sexes co-mingling. We have co-ed schools and universities, sometimes even co-ed sports (most wrestling programs, for instance, which is easily the most contact-oriented sport in any high school curriculum), but the logistics of fitting more fixtures into the same amount of space remains a half-hearted reason for sex-segregated bathrooms.
But there are many places with a single neuter bathroom, which may or may not have a urinal(s).
If someone wanted to go into the womens room to commit a crime, there isn't anything physically preventing them from doing so today except for the fact that they are relegated to not go in there in the first place. So if a guy happened to be in the womens room, someone would say "hey, you're not suppose to be here" and complain. Under the wishes of the trans lobby, you just have to feel like you belong in there to justify your presence. Again with the meaningless fluff. If I want to commit a crime, I'm going to commit a crime. My mere presence does not cause me to spontaneously violate someone else's property or person. You are making a false inference.
Being transgender and in a room in no way correlates to the commission of a crime.
For that matter, we let convicted criminals, even people who have assaulted or raped, use public restrooms. The notion that a law-abiding citizen will suddenly commit crime when in the "wrong" room is hysterical insanity.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-02-10 16:03:03
The issue is that supporters are talking about it being uncomfortable to have a penis in the women's restroom, when most of them couldn't pick a transgender woman out of a lineup.
Are you constantly scared to be sexually assaulted by homosexuals while using the urinary?
Why do we separate bathrooms based on sex today? Both of you completely ignore the basis for societies current practice.
Society's current practice is that restrooms are separated by gender on an honor system. There isn't rampant misuse of the gender specific restrooms being recorded, it's a solution without a problem. The law is pointless in this respect, as someone deliberately entering the wrong restroom is already illegal in most places because of the intent being illegal. If you enter the wrong restroom intentionally to spy or assault someone, you're already subject to the law. The new law effects only one group, transgenders, who currently don't represent any credible threat to the cis users of public restrooms and would now be forced to appear to be of the wrong gender for the restroom they are legally required to use. So, a trans man is either a criminal for using the men's room, or may be forced to prove they have female genitals to avoid being arrested for using the womens' restroom. How does this not compute?
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-02-10 16:04:51
Why do we separate bathrooms based on sex today? Both of you completely ignore the basis for societies current practice. There are two reasons. One is simple logistics: women can't use traditional urinals. The second is Victorian fear of the sexes co-mingling. We have co-ed schools and universities, sometimes even co-ed sports (most wrestling programs, for instance, which is easily the most contact-oriented sport in any high school curriculum), but the logistics of fitting more fixtures into the same amount of space remains a half-hearted reason for sex-segregated bathrooms.
But there are many places with a single neuter bathroom, which may or may not have a urinal(s).
If someone wanted to go into the womens room to commit a crime, there isn't anything physically preventing them from doing so today except for the fact that they are relegated to not go in there in the first place. So if a guy happened to be in the womens room, someone would say "hey, you're not suppose to be here" and complain. Under the wishes of the trans lobby, you just have to feel like you belong in there to justify your presence. Again with the meaningless fluff. If I want to commit a crime, I'm going to commit a crime. My mere presence does not cause me to spontaneously violate someone else's property or person. You are making a false inference.
Being transgender and in a room in no way correlates to the commission of a crime.
For that matter, we let convicted criminals, even people who have assaulted or raped, use public restrooms. The notion that a law-abiding citizen will suddenly commit crime when in the "wrong" room is hysterical insanity.
It's as much "meaningless fluff" as the notion that transgendered people are largely being assaulted because they have to use the restroom they don't identify with. This is strictly a "trans feels are more important then the feels of the majority" argument. Special rights for trans people.
Men have different bathroom needs than women? Tell me more.
By fonewear 2015-02-10 16:07:54
This is America damn it why can't we pee and poo in peace !
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-10 16:13:55
Men have different bathroom needs than women? When did anyone say anything like that?
Anyways, done arguing with you. You want to imagine that people being singled out needlessly who are already at risk for being victims of irrational violence is a no-harm situation, so you're clearly in your usual "rationality does not need to apply" mode. You still haven't explained how someone being transgender and in the bathroom with you is harmful and you'll never be able to. Because it isn't.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-10 16:39:57
After SRS even the US government as much as it sucks with human rights will issue a driver's license of the proper gender. In Canada, there's a dispute right now over whether the SRS is necessary before that step. And it really shouldn't be. What gender they've been born as and what operations they have or have not have is none of your business it's private information. They are a woman by law, and strive to be accepted as such by society enough already. Your statement that it's only a bathroom and to spare feelings is the only reason is the EXACT same as saying a woman's wages are only 25 cents less per dollar and woman ARE worse at work so what does it matter but to spare women's feelings?
It's only a bathroom and they really ARE a man so what does it matter but to spare their feelings? They shouldn't be.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-10 16:41:50
I don't think anyone goes into bathrooms to check people out. Peeping is a real problem, especially now that everyone carries a reasonably high-resolution video recorder on them at all times. Thing is, though, it's a problem right now with sex-segregated bathrooms. And it's a crime. Nothing would meaningfully change.
Though, on that note, I understand why bathroom stalls use only partial partitions (ease of cleaning and ventilation), I wish there could be a way to get around that. I've never seen a camera sneaking around the walls, but I also avoid public bathrooms and even the bathrooms in my workplace. Exactly, nothing would change. It's just a bill to discriminate and shame a specific group of people. Wrong, it's a bill to reinforce the current laws, and allow civil prosecution of them being broken.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-10 16:43:47
Well why do we separate bathrooms by sex today? Why would I get arrested if I just strolled into the women's room?
You wouldn't get arrested unless you were going to commit a crime like voyeurism or stuff like that.
Are you constantly scared to be sexually assaulted by homosexuals while using the urinary? No, you would get arrested, as it is a crime. (Depending on area, obviously).
By Jetackuu 2015-02-10 16:52:15
After SRS even the US government as much as it sucks with human rights will issue a driver's license of the proper gender. In Canada, there's a dispute right now over whether the SRS is necessary before that step. And it really shouldn't be. What gender they've been born as and what operations they have or have not have is none of your business it's private information. They are a woman by law, and strive to be accepted as such by society enough already. Your statement that it's only a bathroom and to spare feelings is the only reason is the EXACT same as saying a woman's wages are only 25 cents less per dollar and woman ARE worse at work so what does it matter but to spare women's feelings?
It's only a bathroom and they really ARE a man so what does it matter but to spare their feelings? They shouldn't be. Maybe you'll be blessed with a child who is trans, or even someone who is intersex. We'll see how your super educated theory of "your gender is only determined by what is between your legs" thing turns out then.
Prove that Gender Dysphoria isn't all just in the mind (whether a choice or a mental illness), and then we'll have that discussion.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-10 16:53:39
Prove that Gender Dysphoria isn't all just in the mind (whether a choice or a mental illness), and then we'll have that discussion. Prove that it is. You have an assertion to make, you go ahead and prove your assertion.
I'm not going to wait, though. You're going to dodge as usual.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-02-10 17:13:13
Let them use whatever they want, STOP CARING SO MUCH. *** lol at that guy some pages ago saying "but what if my child is in the bathroom!" well fortunately this isn't about pedophiles, your child will be fine.
Who was that person saying "but women will be shocked", hello I'm a woman and don't care. Hell, I don't give a damn if it's even in a locker room.
Really the only thing where I'm not able to draw the line is with sports, we discussed it some months ago.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-10 17:14:31
Prove that Gender Dysphoria isn't all just in the mind (whether a choice or a mental illness), and then we'll have that discussion. Prove that it is. You have an assertion to make, you go ahead and prove your assertion.
I'm not going to wait, though. You're going to dodge as usual. The burden of proof isn't on us, but nice try, and nice deflection.
By Bloodrose 2015-02-10 17:17:14
Prove that Gender Dysphoria isn't all just in the mind (whether a choice or a mental illness), and then we'll have that discussion. Prove that it is. You have an assertion to make, you go ahead and prove your assertion.
I'm not going to wait, though. You're going to dodge as usual. The burden of proof isn't on us, but nice try, and nice deflection. Actually, the burden of proof is on you for making the assertion or claim that
1. they *shouldn't* be a Woman recognizable by law, despite living and identifying as one,
2. that it's purely mental (in the head, either by choice or mental illness) despite there being evidence of causing physical duress to the body due to being wired as a female.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-10 17:23:01
Prove that Gender Dysphoria isn't all just in the mind (whether a choice or a mental illness), and then we'll have that discussion. Prove that it is. You have an assertion to make, you go ahead and prove your assertion.
I'm not going to wait, though. You're going to dodge as usual. The burden of proof isn't on us, but nice try, and nice deflection. Actually, the burden of proof is on you for making the assertion or claim that
1. they *shouldn't* be a Woman recognizable by law, despite living and identifying as one,
2. that it's purely mental (in the head, either by choice or mental illness) despite there being evidence of causing physical duress to the body due to being wired as a female.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-02-10 17:26:49
Who needs Republicans and Democrats to divide the country when you have the <insert woman screaming> Public Restroom Debate!
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-10 17:27:16
Prove that Gender Dysphoria isn't all just in the mind (whether a choice or a mental illness), and then we'll have that discussion. Prove that it is. You have an assertion to make, you go ahead and prove your assertion.
I'm not going to wait, though. You're going to dodge as usual. The burden of proof isn't on us, but nice try, and nice deflection. Wrong.
NEITHER SIDE can claim definitive evidence.
You're playing a game of "Well, since I reject your point-of-view, you're just going to have to agree with mine." Wrong. There is an absence of evidence on both sides and that means that neither assertion is well-supported. If you want to claim your assertion is correct, you have to prove it. Your assertion has no more potency to suggest that your beliefs trump others when all are made in the absence of evidence.
Which is why I've side-stepped your little pet theory and aimed at no-harm as a guiding principle instead.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-10 17:29:31
So Bloodrose was making stuff up?
Tsk, tsk.
By Bloodrose 2015-02-10 17:33:52
Related conditions
The following conditions may include dysphoria as a symptom:
Major depressive disorder (unipolar) and dysthymia
Bipolar disorder and cyclothymia
Premenstrual syndrome
Premenstrual dysphoric disorder
Stress
Adjustment disorder with depressed mood
Anxiety disorders such as Post traumatic stress disorder
Mixed anxiety-depressive disorder
Gender dysphoria, sometimes diagnosed as "gender identity disorder" (the latter term and its identification with gender dysphoria is controversial)
Personality disorders such as borderline personality disorder, dependent personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder
Substance withdrawal
Body dysmorphic disorder
Akathisia
Hypoglycemia
Schizophrenia
Sexual dysfunction
Body integrity identity disorder
Insomnia
Chronic pain
All fall under physical duress, and are recorded in the current DSM-5 as side effects of certain mental disorders.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-10 17:36:03
Even though my physical appearance is human, I know that I'm really a god so everyone should stop treating me like a human and worship me instead.
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By Bloodrose 2015-02-10 17:39:30
Bender always did want to kill all humans, and *was* worshipped in an episode or two.
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Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2015-02-10 17:47:08
The reclassification of Gender Identity Disorder (GID) from a mental illness wasn't done due to medical evidence but because of political pressure from the LBGTQOG lobby on the APA. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) still has it listed as a mental disorder though there is political pressure to have it forcibly changed.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-10 17:48:44
O & G?
By fonewear 2015-02-10 17:48:45
The LBGTQ would get more support if they changed to LBBQ. Sounds delicious to me.
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By fonewear 2015-02-10 17:48:58
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florida_bill_would_imprison_trans_people_for_using_public_bathrooms Slate
Quote: Gay marriage has been legal in Florida for a month now, and at this point, even the state’s hardcore conservatives seem increasingly resigned to the fact that marriage equality is here to stay. Accordingly, Florida’s more bigoted legislators have decided to turn their ire toward another maligned, disfavored minority—trans people—by proposing one of the most viciously sadistic, hypocritical bills the legislature has ever considered.
The basic purpose of the bill is quite simple: to forbid trans people from using the public bathroom that matches their true gender. According to the bill’s text, any trans person who enters a “single-sex public facility” that doesn’t match their “biological sex” is guilty of a first-degree misdemeanor. A “single-sex public facility” includes bathrooms “maintained by an owner of public accommodations, a school, or a place of employment”—basically, any public bathroom in the entire state. Any trans person who violates the act could be sentenced to one year in prison.
It gets much, much worse. Any non-trans person who discovers a trans person using a bathroom that doesn’t align with their “biological sex” would be permitted to sue that trans person under the act. (If sued successfully, the trans person would have to pay their accuser’s attorney fees.) And, in a final turn of the screw, an “owner of public accommodations, a school, or a place of employment” who allows a trans person to use the bathroom of their true gender is liable for a civil suit. In other words, if a store owner does not actively prevent trans people from using her bathrooms, she can be sued by other customers. And of course, if the trans-friendly store owner is found to have allowed a trans person to use the bathroom, she’ll not only have to pay damages to disgruntled customers—she’ll also have to pay their attorney’s fees.
The obvious intent of this bill is to humiliate trans people by opening them up to criminal and civil liability merely for performing the most basic of bodily functions. Trans people already face harassment, discrimination, and sometimes violence while attempting to use the bathroom. This bill would effectively give anti-trans harassers the state’s blessing, while providing them a new avenue through which to shame trans Floridians—the court system. Many trans people are already anxious about using public bathrooms; some are afraid to leave their homes given the risk of verbal and physical abuse they face in public facilities. With this bill, the state would effectively legalize anti-trans harassment, sending a resounding message to trans people that they are not welcome in public life.
But perhaps the galling component of the bill is its astonishing interference into private businesses. For years, conservatives have been complaining that LGBT non-discrimination ordinances impede the liberty of business owners. These businesses, conservatives argue, should have the freedom to conduct their affairs however they so choose—even if that means kicking out gay customers who want to buy their products. With the tables turned, however, Florida’s right-wing legislators have changed their tune, arguing that private business owners should be forbidden from letting trans customers use their bathrooms. This intrusion into the autonomy of businesses is as hideously hypocritical as it is unsurprising. Most conservatives are only willing to defend business owners’ rights so long as they’re exercising their right to discriminate against LGBTQ people. When businesses wish to tolerate LGBTQ customers, conservatives have no problem passing a law restricting their liberty.
It is probably too soon to tell whether Florida’s bill will pass—though given this legislature’s track record, any bill designed to demean a sexual minority has fair odds of becoming law. Either way, the mere existence of such a mean-spirited bill sends a blunt message to the state’s trans community that they are not welcome here. It was probably inevitable that, once the marriage equality debate settled down, those who dedicate their lives to promoting hatred would set their sights on trans people. But the maliciousness and celerity with which Florida’s legislators have zeroed in on the trans community suggests the next battle for LGBTQ rights will be a brutal one.
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