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FL Bill Would Imprison TSs for Using Bathrooms
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2015-02-09 17:52:25
I'm curious why you know this. It's a topic I've taken an interest in, I've read the studies and forums from radical feminist end as well as transsexual end.
Quote: But the scientific data is largely incomplete and unreliable. You think it's better to base a decision on knowingly incomplete data?
But, wait... what decision are we talking about? The decision to allow a person to use their own money to alter their own body? What public policy decision is affecting your life in any discernible way? We're talking about the decision to rationalize transsexualism as a normal development best treated with HRT and/or SRS. There's no scientific evidence to back a need for physical adjustment rather than mental, and studies on the results conclude little improvement in quality of life or suicide rate.
Prescribing a life-altering series of treatments potentially ending in an extremely damaging and irreversible surgery to someone clearly in need of therapy is not ethical, not based on science, and only gaining momentum due to an influx of political-correctness.
It doesn't need to affect my life for me to have an opinion on it. Global warming is unlikely to affect any of us in our lifetime, should everyone just drop it until it becomes an immediate risk? I have an opinion, I can support that opinion. Any reason or lack thereof is irrelevant to that.
Quote: Let's put this in a slightly different context. I've been following the body modification community for almost two decades now. There are people who will distort their bodies to extreme degrees, such as extending their earlobes to hang down to their shoulders, having their navels or little toes surgically removed, having silicone implants placed in their skin, any number of piercings and tattoos, and some really freaky stuff I don't even like thinking about. Obviously that latter one creeps me out, but it's being done with their own money and on their own time (and without even consulting a medical professional, so they're neither clogging up the system nor getting the help they may need).
So how can I say that someone shouldn't be allowed to pierce their nipples? What possible reason is there for me to have an opinion on their right to do that? I can say that I don't think pierced nipples look attractive, but that's just my opinion and only has value to those who care what I think, which is a small group at best. The problem isn't that someone wants to 'pierce their nipples'. It's that they expect the whole world to treat them as if they were born cyborg and getting their nipples pierced was a medical necessity. They want cyborg rights, cyborg privileges, and they want their drivers' license to say cyborg. They want real robots and real humans alike to recognize and appreciate the struggle associated with a flesh being trying to live as a cyborg.
tldr; cosmetic surgery is a ***analogy unless the people receiving it view it as nothing more than cosmetic surgery
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By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:02:03
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »it is indeed a slippery slope Which is a fallacy. The slippery slope fallacy is one people love but doesn't play out. So, it's ok to base medical treatment on public opinion? Not what I was saying. I was saying that stating something is a "slippery slope" is using a fallacy to claim something is true. Slippery slopes don't exist (except for, you know, the actual object that one may literally fall down). You can't use a fallacy to back up your argument: it invalidates it. 
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By fonewear 2015-02-09 18:03:13
Your a fallacy is my argument !
That or I stick my hands over my ears saying "I'm not listening blah blah blah"
 Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
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Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-02-09 18:03:50
It's funny cause that's what you do all the time..but you'll say no etc whatever.
By fonewear 2015-02-09 18:04:33
You want the truth you want the truth you can't handle that movie quote !
By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:07:42
It's funny cause that's what you do all the time..but you'll say no etc whatever. Well it helps that he's wrong, not every use of the "slippery slope" is a fallacy.
Yes this is indeed semantics, as it is that type of argument.
Not to mention that there's a severe other difference here, let's see if you can find out the reasons as to why.
By fonewear 2015-02-09 18:08:38
I'm not a fallacy expert I just pretend to be one on the internet.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:10:32
I'm not a fallacy expert I just pretend to be one on the internet.
I hope you stay on this site forever, your brand of humor is just too good to lose.
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By Bloodrose 2015-02-09 18:11:33
I'm not a fallacy expert I just pretend to be one on the internet.
I hope you stay on this site forever, your brand of humor is just too good to lose. It's started to infect other posters.
Myself included.
All that's left is to link unrelated HuffPost articles and hot chicks.
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By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:13:09
I'm not a fallacy expert I just pretend to be one on the internet.
I hope you stay on this site forever, your brand of humor is just too good to lose. It's started to infect other posters.
Myself included.
All that's left is to link unrelated HuffPost articles and hot chicks. YouTube Video Placeholder
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 Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 13643
By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-02-09 18:15:30
We must preserve the Fonewear. I've already arranged for a museum to pick him up and put him in a permanent display case.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-09 18:16:04
We must preserve the Fonewear. I've already arranged for a museum to pick him up and put him in a permanent display case. Bronzed?
By fonewear 2015-02-09 18:16:39
Bronzed like the color of the women I like.
By Bloodrose 2015-02-09 18:17:01
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Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-02-09 18:17:31
We must preserve the Fonewear. I've already arranged for a museum to pick him up and put him in a permanent display case. Bronzed?
Nah, I'm too cheap for that. I'm having Fone pewtered, because it's cheap and it's funny to say.
Server: Shiva
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Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-09 18:18:26
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »The problem isn't that someone wants to 'pierce their nipples'. It's that they expect the whole world to treat them as if they were born cyborg and getting their nipples pierced was a medical necessity. They want cyborg rights, cyborg privileges, and they want their drivers' license to say cyborg. They want real robots and real humans alike to recognize and appreciate the struggle associated with a flesh being trying to live as a cyborg. Uh... no.
Using your human/robot dichotomy (good metaphor, by the way), what is actually happening is that someone is a cyborg but, because they appear to be human or robot, want to be identified as such. If someone looks like a human but has gears under their skin, is it not causing them needless harm to force them to identify as robot or, indeed, cyborg? And why shouldn't they be extended the rights that are available to both humans and robots alike?
Stepping out of our metaphor, where are these trans people demanding that we recognize them? The few trans people I've met want nothing more than to become indistinguishable. They only cry out for attention so that they don't get completely ignored.
For instance, homeless shelters habitually segregate by sex. When faced with a transgender person, some of them have had serious issues figuring out where to house them and end up turning someone away to sleep and die on the streets. Actually, there's a lot of problems around helping out the homeless. Teenagers are regularly turned away, too, but that's a separate issue entirely.
The battle for trans rights probably gets taken too far by some radicals, the same way women's rights has been co-opted into a hatred of all men, but that doesn't mean we roll back the clock or ignore the real issues being masked by hyperbole. If someone looks enough like a man and identifies as a man, why would you invite potential harm on him by saying his driver's license have Sex: F on it? I'm sure some loudmouths on forums spout off about wanting the world to see them in all their trans glory, but that's the nature of the internet. Surely you know how often people will say whatever will get them attention without concern to meaning or rationality. I mean, fonewear and ChaosX are right here in this thread as examples.
If your only objection is that you think SRS and even HRT are bad ju-ju, snake oil cures for a bigger underlying problem... well, fine, maybe they are. The data is far from incontrovertible at this point because it's scarce as snowmen in the desert. But wherein lies the harm letting someone with genitals that dangle, though that person looks like a woman, use a bathroom stall?
I hang around a lot of drag queens and, even though I'd never mistake them for being female (although I know a lot of people who fail to notice they're men in drag), I find it considerably more disconcerting to see someone haul up in a skirt and fake ***, hike up the former, and start pissing in the urinal next to me. For my own personal sanity, I want the people in the men's room to look like men, regardless of whether they are. I've yet to see a drag king try to use a urinal because, y'know, that just wouldn't happen (not least because trousers and vaginas do not mix when peeing standing up).
Because, remember, this is about public policy. Right now the public policy is irrational. If you oppose SRS and HRT, fine. If you think it's a paraphilia that someone wants to be seen as the opposite gender, fine (again, though, there's a LOT of paraphilias out there, so merely being a paraphilia is not a compelling argument). Public policy needs must be founded in seeking to alleviate or prevent harm. To my knowledge, no government agency has stepped in and said that someone undergoing elective SRS on their own money is unable to do so. Medicaid and Medicare deny seeking public funds for SRS, though, so that's right in line with what you want.
I'm just not seeing the basis for objection.
By fonewear 2015-02-09 18:18:35
I want to be dipped in honey and rolled around in goose feathers.
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By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:24:47
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »The problem isn't that someone wants to 'pierce their nipples'. It's that they expect the whole world to treat them as if they were born cyborg and getting their nipples pierced was a medical necessity. They want cyborg rights, cyborg privileges, and they want their drivers' license to say cyborg. They want real robots and real humans alike to recognize and appreciate the struggle associated with a flesh being trying to live as a cyborg. Uh... no.
Using your human/robot dichotomy (good metaphor, by the way), what is actually happening is that someone is a cyborg but, because they appear to be human or robot, want to be identified as such. If someone looks like a human but has gears under their skin, is it not causing them needless harm to force them to identify as robot or, indeed, cyborg? And why shouldn't they be extended the rights that are available to both humans and robots alike? Citation needed.
But as for a robot who looks like a human: they should still be noted as a robot, and most likely would be, there's no reason to call them anything but what they are.
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By fonewear 2015-02-09 18:26:42
I'm not drunk enough to question whether cyborgs need the same rights as people.
That is a question for possibly Keanu Reeves.
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Cerberus.Anjisnu
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2803
By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2015-02-09 18:36:47
fonewear is indeed a nonsensical genius i would rub elbows with him or her in the most sensual of ways
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By fonewear 2015-02-09 18:37:59
As you gaze into P and R, P and R gazes into you.
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Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-09 18:41:26
But as for a robot who looks like a human: they should still be noted as a robot, and most likely would be, there's no reason to call them anything but what they are. This is why it's clear arguing with you is basically pointless. You're being deliberately obtuse with a metaphor out of petulance.
Do you see no harm in demanding that someone who appears to be female be identified as male? We're talking about a government-issued ID here. If someone spends 24 hours a day dressing, acting, and being identified as a male, but has XX chromosomes, can it do anything but harm to force their ID to show F?
Indeed, a government-issued ID is used by the police. A transgender teen (bio male, dressed and acts female) was recently kidnapped in my city. The police wasted a lot of time trying to wrap their stupid little pig heads around the fact that, yes, the ABDUCTED TEENAGER still has a penis but looks credibly female. The cops literally could not grasp the idea of a biological male dressed in an anime maid's outfit. Had he been identified in official circles as "she," they would have gotten to work much faster. There's a lot of other really shitty stuff that the police did in this case, too, like pretending the teen wasn't kidnapped and held in captivity for 3 days, and the reasons for this point at the transgender nature of the victim. That kind of treatment, where one cannot rely on the police to do their job because of trivial data like wearing opposite-sexed clothing, is why this is important.
The only form of identification that should indicate biological sex and, probably, any sex reassignment is a MEDICAL ID bracelet. I have one such thing that, via one of those cell phone UPC code things, links to a very full list of my medical data should I ever be picked up by EMTs. They can get almost everything. In fact, the one big thing it's missing is an indicator of where some of my piercings are, which is a real problem if I'm put into virtually any imaging device, especially, god help me, an MRI. We live in the 21st century, so the days of simple medic alert bracelets are behind us and, thus, the only way someone should know if I'm FTM or whatever should be by instantly accessing my medical records.
I'll bring it back to what criminal laws are meant to serve, but extend it past that: what is the harm? I'm technically blond, but my driver's license says I'm brown-haired. My ID has a photo of me on it, so the exact shade is obvious. I could have had it indicate I was blond if I wanted. I lie about my weight, after all.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:49:54
There you go again with the personal insults for no reason other than to throw a tantrum.
I see great harm in avoiding reality.
As far as ID's go: mine said I was 5'3" for a bit, doesn't mean I'm 5'3"
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Server: Shiva
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Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-09 18:50:52
I see great harm in avoiding reality. What great harm?
Stop quipping and explain your position. You might actually convince me.
By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:52:27
I see great harm in avoiding reality. What great harm?
Stop quipping and explain your position. You might actually convince me.
Now who's being obtuse?
You're the only one who is "quipping" so nice projection.
Server: Shiva
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Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-09 18:52:58
As far as ID's go: mine said I was 5'3" for a bit, doesn't mean I'm 5'3" And, like I said, I lie about my weight. If I listed what my weight actually is, people would say, "You don't weigh that!" So I list what people think it is so as to avoid that argument. On the very off chance the police are ever hunting me down and using my license as a means of identifying me, they're better off using what I look like rather than whatever I actually am.
I hope that makes sense. It's identification, not biometrics.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-02-09 18:53:00
Reality =/= your (the general your, not singled out) ideological beliefs based on anecdotal experience.
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Server: Shiva
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Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-02-09 18:53:15
I see great harm in avoiding reality. What great harm?
Stop quipping and explain your position. You might actually convince me.
Now who's being obtuse?
You're the only one who is "quipping" so nice projection. ANSWER THE *** QUESTION!
Server: Cerberus
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Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-02-09 18:53:31
If the chromosomes do not match, why would you call someone something he/she's not? Beyond hate or any other "shitty" reason, it makes no sense.
It's not even a matter of harming anyone, it simply makes no sense, there is no reason behind it. I have a ***, my chromosomes are XY, why would you change it to F on my passport just because I dress and act like a girl? Just why?
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By Jetackuu 2015-02-09 18:53:45
As far as ID's go: mine said I was 5'3" for a bit, doesn't mean I'm 5'3" And, like I said, I lie about my weight. If I listed what my weight actually is, people would say, "You don't weigh that!" So I list what people think it is so as to avoid that argument. On the very off chance the police are ever hunting me down and using my license as a means of identifying me, they're better off using what I look like rather than whatever I actually am.
I hope that makes sense. It's identification, not biometrics.
That's forging documents, of which the last I checked was illegal.
florida_bill_would_imprison_trans_people_for_using_public_bathrooms Slate
Quote: Gay marriage has been legal in Florida for a month now, and at this point, even the state’s hardcore conservatives seem increasingly resigned to the fact that marriage equality is here to stay. Accordingly, Florida’s more bigoted legislators have decided to turn their ire toward another maligned, disfavored minority—trans people—by proposing one of the most viciously sadistic, hypocritical bills the legislature has ever considered.
The basic purpose of the bill is quite simple: to forbid trans people from using the public bathroom that matches their true gender. According to the bill’s text, any trans person who enters a “single-sex public facility” that doesn’t match their “biological sex” is guilty of a first-degree misdemeanor. A “single-sex public facility” includes bathrooms “maintained by an owner of public accommodations, a school, or a place of employment”—basically, any public bathroom in the entire state. Any trans person who violates the act could be sentenced to one year in prison.
It gets much, much worse. Any non-trans person who discovers a trans person using a bathroom that doesn’t align with their “biological sex” would be permitted to sue that trans person under the act. (If sued successfully, the trans person would have to pay their accuser’s attorney fees.) And, in a final turn of the screw, an “owner of public accommodations, a school, or a place of employment” who allows a trans person to use the bathroom of their true gender is liable for a civil suit. In other words, if a store owner does not actively prevent trans people from using her bathrooms, she can be sued by other customers. And of course, if the trans-friendly store owner is found to have allowed a trans person to use the bathroom, she’ll not only have to pay damages to disgruntled customers—she’ll also have to pay their attorney’s fees.
The obvious intent of this bill is to humiliate trans people by opening them up to criminal and civil liability merely for performing the most basic of bodily functions. Trans people already face harassment, discrimination, and sometimes violence while attempting to use the bathroom. This bill would effectively give anti-trans harassers the state’s blessing, while providing them a new avenue through which to shame trans Floridians—the court system. Many trans people are already anxious about using public bathrooms; some are afraid to leave their homes given the risk of verbal and physical abuse they face in public facilities. With this bill, the state would effectively legalize anti-trans harassment, sending a resounding message to trans people that they are not welcome in public life.
But perhaps the galling component of the bill is its astonishing interference into private businesses. For years, conservatives have been complaining that LGBT non-discrimination ordinances impede the liberty of business owners. These businesses, conservatives argue, should have the freedom to conduct their affairs however they so choose—even if that means kicking out gay customers who want to buy their products. With the tables turned, however, Florida’s right-wing legislators have changed their tune, arguing that private business owners should be forbidden from letting trans customers use their bathrooms. This intrusion into the autonomy of businesses is as hideously hypocritical as it is unsurprising. Most conservatives are only willing to defend business owners’ rights so long as they’re exercising their right to discriminate against LGBTQ people. When businesses wish to tolerate LGBTQ customers, conservatives have no problem passing a law restricting their liberty.
It is probably too soon to tell whether Florida’s bill will pass—though given this legislature’s track record, any bill designed to demean a sexual minority has fair odds of becoming law. Either way, the mere existence of such a mean-spirited bill sends a blunt message to the state’s trans community that they are not welcome here. It was probably inevitable that, once the marriage equality debate settled down, those who dedicate their lives to promoting hatred would set their sights on trans people. But the maliciousness and celerity with which Florida’s legislators have zeroed in on the trans community suggests the next battle for LGBTQ rights will be a brutal one.
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