The Supremes Tackle Birth Control

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The Supremes tackle birth control
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 11:57:15
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Last 3 pages can be summed up with this classic scene:
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Women according to Jefe and El Gaupo.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-03-27 12:01:01
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saevel said:
Then your even more clueless.

Women's sexual preference doesn't vary much. There is no character. The primal biological attraction is exactly the same in all of them.

Why do you think 50 shades of grey has such high sales numbers, almost all entirely women? It's a crappy book with no real story other then a girl being completely dominated and mastered by a male of ridiculously high status. It's every women's secret wet dream, well that and rape.

Now quick employ shaming tactics.

Right and we're just supposed to spoon up this *** wholesale because Saevel says so? Humans don't vary much, every woman wants to have sex with a man of wealth because all women care about is being dominated by force.

You know why fifty shades of grey sold so well? It's called good marketing, escapist fantasies for married women, sex sells (regardless of gender) and a craze of surrounding taboo topics.

You know, like Lolita. Another book that has sold well because it explores the taboo of pedophilia. Shall we read into Lolita that every man secretly harbors the desire to have sex with their stepdaughters? I know I don't but the conscious of Saevel apparently overrides the myriad thoughts of man on this planet.

So tell me, what do I want?
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 12:03:32
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Lolita!!!! Hahaha Peter Sellers as Clare Quilty. Good Times Good Times.
edit:
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-03-27 12:07:41
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Last 3 pages can be summed up with this classic scene:
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Women according to Jefe and El Gaupo.

Brilliant film unworthy of being brought down into this muck.
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-03-27 12:15:56
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Do you have any inkling?

Was that a rhetorical question or can any of us jump in on this one?
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 12:18:33
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Do you have any inkling?

Was that a rhetorical question or can any of us jump in on this one?

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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-03-27 12:21:44
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I dunno. I never expect answers to direct questions from some people.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-27 12:23:17
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
TOPICALLY RELEVANT POST INCOMING
But the entire point of incorporation is to create an entity that is wholly separate from the individuals. How is the infusion of religion into a for-profit corporation's identity necessary to its ability to obtain profits? Hobby Lobby and that other one are peddling craft materials and cabinets and not anything that could be construed as inherently religious. I get the concept of corporate personhood endowing some rights, but does it actually need a religion?

The people suing the government seem to want all the benefits of incorporation plus all the benefits afforded to individuals. How can that be seen as a good thing?

The infusion for religion isn't necessary for a corporation to achieve profits, but the people of the corporation have the right to live and run it under free exercise of their religion (1st ammendment yo).

Don't you realize that you're advocating for an entirely new class of citizen. We recognize everyone's fundamental/natural rights to X-Y-Z unless you start a corporation then you don't get those rights. The worker has a right to X but the company doesn't. You probably just hate corporations based on some bad experience and want the government to come in and strip them of all their wealth.
Do you have any inkling as to why exactly that is (that is, why corporations are legally distinct from its owners) or are you just kneejerking to a perceived attack on religion?

If we are to grant a set of individuals specific rights and privileges or restrictions and penalties, the constitution arguably gives the feds the authority to do so via (somewhat) the commerce clause. However people have natural & inalienable rights which are recognized in the bill of rights, which are i think we can all agree, are untouchable. Free exercise of religion happens to be one of them.

Whine all you want about Hobby Lobby's "double secret" motives, just don't kid yourself that this isn't about a group of people's freedom to run their company as religiously as they see fit.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-03-27 12:28:06
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Oh it gets interesting. Take "*** shamming" for example. Something that the feminists and castrated white knights usually blame on men. They parade around and hold rallies about how men are judging women and blah blah. What's really interesting is that men typically hold a neutral stance on female promiscuity. Promiscuous females are actually in a males best interest as it means minimum commitment and provision for access to sex. The ones who really do the *** shamming are other women. Promiscuous women drive the price of sex down in the sexual marketplace. They are the wall-mart of the sexual economy. It's the women who judge other women based on how easy they give up sex. It's the women who reject promiscuous women from their social groups. And it's women who conduct covert rumor operations to discredit and lower a rival's social standing.

The one time that the sexual promiscuity of a women matters to men is in the artificial monogamy we've created to build society. It's a purely rational decision, a women who frequently changes lovers can't be relied upon to control her hypergamy and stay monogamous. She's perfectly fine as a friend, lover or business partner, but not as a wife. Further if she was to continue her promiscuous ways she would get pregnant with a child from a different man, it would then be the husbands responsibility to provide resources for DNA that wasn't his.
People in this thread (men) have already called women *** for not being able to control themselves... Not to mention some men, just like some women, shame women for their sexual nature... If you haven't seen this then you live under a rock somewhere...
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 12:30:34
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
If we are to grant a set of individuals specific rights and privileges or restrictions and penalties, the constitution arguably gives the feds the authority to do so via (somewhat) the commerce clause. However people have natural & inalienable rights which are recognized in the bill of rights, which are i think we can all agree, are untouchable. Free exercise of religion happens to be one of them.

Whine all you want about Hobby Lobby's double secret motives, just don't kid yourself that this isn't about a group of peoples freedom to run their company as religiously as they see fit.

The Commerce Clause. Really Nausi? Do you have any idea that you have no idea what you're talking about by bringing up the Commerce Clause in this instance with respect to the argument you're trying to make?

The Commerce Clause falls into interstate commerce and the powers of Federal Regulation.

Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964), ruled that Congress could regulate a business that served mostly interstate travelers.

Daniel v. Paul, 395 U.S. 298 (1969), ruled that the federal government could regulate a recreational facility because three out of the four items sold at its snack bar were purchased from outside the state.

Hobby Lobby operates in multiple states, guess what just happened to the argument you just tried to propose? It fell flat on it's face. However, I'm quite confident that you have no idea why.

TLDR: You have no inklings.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-03-27 12:32:44
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Do you have any inkling as to why exactly that is (that is, why corporations are legally distinct from its owners) or are you just kneejerking to a perceived attack on religion?

If we are to grant a set of individuals specific rights and privileges or restrictions and penalties, the constitution arguably gives the feds the authority to do so via (somewhat) the commerce clause. However people have natural & inalienable rights which are recognized in the bill of rights, which are i think we can all agree, are untouchable. Free exercise of religion happens to be one of them.

Whine all you want about Hobby Lobby's "double secret" motives, just don't kid yourself that this isn't about a group of people's freedom to run their company as religiously as they see fit.
k

So as far as my actual question is concerned, it would be the latter.
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-03-27 12:33:26
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Creaucent Alazrin said: »
Now you really are showing your sexism. If you really think rape is every womans wet dream you go out and do it see how far it gets you you perverted twit.

Ugh! You don't even know the half of it with this guy! A while back, he implied that, because a woman has a "hidden ovulation" (his words), it made men the victim. 'Cause, you know...A guy is incapable of counting fourteen days after his partner's cycle. Oh yeah! Because you men never ever pick up on behavioral cues or see tampon wrappers at the bottom of a trash can after being with or living with a female.

He also claimed that all Western women were "femi-nazis" (he did it quite frequently too at one point), and that was part of the reason he had to run away to South Korea. Western femi-nazis gonna snatch him up! He also shamelessly berated another female poster for her weight issues.

Grats, Creaucent! You just had the pleasure of meeting the dumbest mofo on AH!

EDIT: The stereotyping of Korean females may as well be a back-hand to them too!

DOUBLE EDIT: Oh! Just so you know, if you're not completely hopeless, helpless and clueless about women, you're a "white-knight". It doesn't even matter if you have no sexual interest in females, you're a "white-knight". If you're a guy with a lick of common sense, you're a "white-knight".

I guess we should add justifiable rape to his rap-sheet.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 12:39:57
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
Creaucent Alazrin said: »
Now you really are showing your sexism. If you really think rape is every womans wet dream you go out and do it see how far it gets you you perverted twit.

Ugh! You don't even know the half of it with this guy! A while back, he implied that, because a woman has a "hidden ovulation" (his words), it made men the victim. 'Cause, you know...A guy is incapable of counting fourteen days after his partner's cycle. Oh yeah! Because you men never ever pick up on behavioral cues or see tampon wrappers at the bottom of a trash can after being with or living with a female.

He also claimed that all Western women were "femi-nazis" (he did it quite frequently too at one point), and that was part of the reason he had to run away to South Korea. Western femi-nazis gonna snatch him up! He also shamelessly berated another female poster for her weight issues.

Grats, Creaucent! You just had the pleasure of meeting the dumbest mofo on AH!

Traditionally Eastern Woman are subservient due to cultural norms and have no problems with insecure men with small penises, also due to cultural norms.

The Plot THICKENS!!!
Like my

Somebody better call a mod. I'm out of control like western women!!!!!
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 Siren.Mosin
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By Siren.Mosin 2014-03-27 12:44:30
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put your *** away, you're only reinforcing people's insecurities.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-27 12:44:49
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Do you have any inkling as to why exactly that is (that is, why corporations are legally distinct from its owners) or are you just kneejerking to a perceived attack on religion?

If we are to grant a set of individuals specific rights and privileges or restrictions and penalties, the constitution arguably gives the feds the authority to do so via (somewhat) the commerce clause. However people have natural & inalienable rights which are recognized in the bill of rights, which are i think we can all agree, are untouchable. Free exercise of religion happens to be one of them.

Whine all you want about Hobby Lobby's "double secret" motives, just don't kid yourself that this isn't about a group of people's freedom to run their company as religiously as they see fit.
k

So as far as my actual question is concerned, it would be the latter.

Ugh, let me spell it out for you. To incorporate is to legally classify yourself (or a group) as an entity. That entity has legally recognized personhood, and should not be exempt from the natural rights contained within the bill of rights. If you can make a successful argument to take away one class of person's rights, you can make it for any.

How can you legitimately argue that this case isn't about religious freedom when it is the cornerstone of the plaintiff's (hobby lobby) argument?
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By fonewear 2014-03-27 12:45:40
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I'm a rooster and I find this offensive.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 12:47:39
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Siren.Mosin said: »
put your *** away, you're only reinforcing people's insecurities.

Sorry I was just posting from a bathroom stall in San Antonio and had an uncontrollable urge to show off my new rooster to the CPA in the stall next to me.

I think I might have scared him, but at the same time a Garbage Truck picking up some hand grenades and a dinosaur carcass shook the building.
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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-03-27 12:50:16
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
How can you legitimately argue that this case isn't about religious freedom when it is the cornerstone of the plaintiff's (hobby lobby) argument?
Because religion is the excuse being used to test the actual argument that a corporation is a person?

Religion is the dodge, not the argument.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-03-27 12:53:21
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Ugh, let me spell it out for you. To incorporate is to legally classify yourself (or a group) as an entity. That entity has legally recognized personhood, and should not be exempt from the natural rights contained within the bill of rights. If you can make a successful argument to take away one class of person's rights, you can make it for any.

How can you legitimately argue that this case isn't about religious freedom when it is the cornerstone of the plaintiff's (hobby lobby) argument?
Well, closer.

Personhood in the way it's used here doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It confers some rights to a corporation that allow for its proper functioning (e.g. 14th Amendment protections since a corporation can be sued and would require due process). The expansion of this definition has resounding implications as was evidenced by the Citizens United case. This is the question I am asking:

How is the transfer of relgious beliefs to a corporation, such as Hobby Lobby, required for that corporation to function?
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 12:53:21
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All it takes is one non christian employee of Hobby Lobby to argue that the reduced cost health care policies options they provide to their employees are discriminatory.

That's how stupid their argument is.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-27 13:15:58
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Ugh, let me spell it out for you. To incorporate is to legally classify yourself (or a group) as an entity. That entity has legally recognized personhood, and should not be exempt from the natural rights contained within the bill of rights. If you can make a successful argument to take away one class of person's rights, you can make it for any.

How can you legitimately argue that this case isn't about religious freedom when it is the cornerstone of the plaintiff's (hobby lobby) argument?
Well, closer.

Personhood in the way it's used here doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It confers some rights to a corporation that allow for its proper functioning (e.g. 14 Amendment protections since a corporation can be sued and would require due process). The expansion of this definition has resounding implications as was evidenced by the Citizens United case. This is the question I am asking:

How is the transfer of relgious beliefs to a corporation, such as Hobby Lobby, required for that corporation to function?

Irrelevant. What is the problem with recognizing the natural rights of a group of people who have incorporated themselves?

Why is a group of people who are incorporated to violate their religious beliefs by providing insurance to their employees that violates their free exercise of religion? Why does the first amendment not apply to you in your corporate life?
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 13:24:25
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Why is a group of people who are incorporated to violate their religious beliefs by providing insurance to their employees that violates their free exercise of religion?


Because, there isn't any mention of Birth Control in the Bible?

Speaking of the Bible here is an interesting passage about something that can be inferred as a commentary to Abortion and even Birth Control. It comes from one of my favorites EXODUS.

Exodus 21:22 said:

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Interesting that there is no mention of sin or god's wrath, just a mortal judge's decision.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-27 13:27:16
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Well that sure is an intolerant narrow view of religious freedom.
 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-03-27 13:28:07
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Why is a group of people who are incorporated to violate their religious beliefs by providing insurance to their employees that violates their free exercise of religion? Why does the first amendment not apply to you in your corporate life?

for the same reason we can't attack their personal holdings in a lawsuit. they have incorporated to indemnify themselves.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 13:28:27
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Well that sure is an intolerant narrow view of religious freedom.

That sure is an intolerant narrow view of intellect.
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 Shiva.Onorgul
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-03-27 13:29:58
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Why is a group of people who are incorporated to violate their religious beliefs by providing insurance to their employees that violates their free exercise of religion?
Cute how you ignore the actual problem to focus on this. Talking points instead of logical points.

The case is ultimately to test whether a corporation really is a person. It is NOT about religion (especially given that what Hobby Lobby is arguing for violates its own religion's doctrine). Why should a corporation be treated as a device to which religion is a defining characteristic? That is the question.

This is why treating corporations as people was always a bad idea. A corporation is a group of people united under a certain banner to pursue a particular goal. In this case, it was a group of people united to sell crafting supplies in order to make a profit. At no point does religion enter into that equation and, as such, the onus is to explain why religion should enter into that equation.

That the owner of the business has a certain belief is IRRELEVANT. The business owner is NOT the business itself. Even if we pretend that a corporation is a person, the important thing is that it is NOT the same person as the CEO or board of directors or leaseholder. And given this, how does one attribute religious belief to a hypothetical person, such that one can claim that said person's religious beliefs are being infringed upon?
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-03-27 13:30:13
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Why is a group of people who are incorporated to violate their religious beliefs by providing insurance to their employees that violates their free exercise of religion? Why does the first amendment not apply to you in your corporate life?

for the same reason we can't attack their personal holdings in a lawsuit. they have incorporated to indemnify themselves.

"Stuff" isn't the free exercise of religion. Surely we can all observe the difference between the two.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-03-27 13:31:58
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Ugh, let me spell it out for you. To incorporate is to legally classify yourself (or a group) as an entity. That entity has legally recognized personhood, and should not be exempt from the natural rights contained within the bill of rights. If you can make a successful argument to take away one class of person's rights, you can make it for any.

How can you legitimately argue that this case isn't about religious freedom when it is the cornerstone of the plaintiff's (hobby lobby) argument?
Well, closer.

Personhood in the way it's used here doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It confers some rights to a corporation that allow for its proper functioning (e.g. 14 Amendment protections since a corporation can be sued and would require due process). The expansion of this definition has resounding implications as was evidenced by the Citizens United case. This is the question I am asking:

How is the transfer of relgious beliefs to a corporation, such as Hobby Lobby, required for that corporation to function?

Irrelevant. What is the problem with recognizing the natural rights of a group of people who have incorporated themselves?

Why is a group of people who are incorporated to violate their religious beliefs by providing insurance to their employees that violates their free exercise of religion? Why does the first amendment not apply to you in your corporate life?


You do realize that incorporating a business means that you "incorporate" it's assets and it's liabilities making it a unique entity removed from it's ownership. A corporation is not an entity made up of the people who own it, it's exactly the opposite. Companies aren't entitled to civil rights, and as Pleebo already said (at least once) "personhood" entitles a company to equal protection where it can be persecuted.

You really need to do some research on the terms you're using, because they don't mean legally what they do socially.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-03-27 13:32:23
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
"Stuff" isn't the free exercise of religion

It kind of is though, religions have all types of "stuff" that are held sacred. Corporations hold profit sacred above all else.

edit: Pleebo there is a new word to add to your list: incorporation.
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-03-27 13:34:31
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Why is a group of people who are incorporated to violate their religious beliefs by providing insurance to their employees that violates their free exercise of religion? Why does the first amendment not apply to you in your corporate life?

for the same reason we can't attack their personal holdings in a lawsuit. they have incorporated to indemnify themselves.

"Stuff" isn't the free exercise of religion. Surely we can all observe the difference between the two.

no, the point is, they filed to become a corporate entity, which is not a person, for the legal and tax benefits and protections it affords them. they aren't a DBA or "doing business as"
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