(CA) K-12 Transgender Law Repeal

We're having a time with some of the ultra conservatives recognizing "clinical depression" as a valid illness in one of the other threads. Not that anybody is trying to convince them it is, just that it came up with respect to qualifying for SSI and hilarity ensued.

This is entirely ridiculous! Biology separates sexes, men are simply built with male parts and women with women parts. If you have one you go in that particular bathroom and if you have the other you go into the other bathroom.

That standard applies to EVERYONE. There is no "discrimination" here. Only a special interest which wishes to grant "special rights" to those who are of a particular mind set and preference.

Misrepresentation! Depression is an illness, just not a disability in which the public should pay for you to live with 99% of the time.

people aren't "built"

but it doesn't surprise me that an ultra conservative is bigoted not to mention just plain out wrong.

People can be depressed to the point of a disability as well. Not saying it would necessarily be permanent, but if you're suffering from an illness that prevents you from living a "normal" life, then you would be disabled while suffering from said illness. People are affected at various rates, but to ignore it entirely isn't helping the overall problem.

What would you do if this was your teenage daughter in the situation? Are you going to tell her to ignore her problems and to keep going to the girl's restroom?

Hi. I'm Ginny, and I am a trans woman. (Meaning I was assigned male at birth, and transitioned to female)

I transitioned several years ago, and have lived my humdrum boring day-to-day life as a woman with exactly 0 issues regarding public accommodations (restrooms, changing spaces, etc.). I don't live in LA, or even California, I live in what is essentially flyover country. All I, and other transgender people want is to be able to go in there, go to the restroom, wash up, and leave in peace. I don't want to see your bits, and I don't want you seeing mine. We want to be treated with respect as the gender we identify as. Yes, this means acknowledging that trans women are women and that trans men are men and thus belong in the public spaces of the gender they identify with.

This business about harassment, flashing of genitals, sexual assault, etc. has come purely from the minds of the people who, since the growing acceptance of homosexuality has weakened their causes, are turning to the trans community as their new boogeyman. (Which honestly makes me wonder what they're doing in public restrooms if they think we're doing this). PJI (Pacific Justice Institute, an anti-gay organization in favour of things such as curing homosexuality) in an effort to drive up signatures, could not find one instance of harassment regarding a K-12 transgender student in California. They had to go all the way to Colorado, and loosen their definition of harassment to "being in the bathroom at the same time as cisgender students". They published a false story, which was picked up by Fox News, the Daily Mail, etc. without being fact checked (facts, who needs 'em!), and what ensued for a 16 year old transgender girl who had transitioned two years prior, was harassment and death threats from conservative minded individuals who do not seem to understand she is a human being. She was under a suicide watch shortly after. PJI has actually escalated their campaign against a 16 year old girl since then producing more videos, articles, donation drives, etc.

As it turns out, no one was actually harassed in the restroom, the school and students support her, and it was only the parents of a couple students who felt uncomfortable about her, thus going to PJI, the appointed guardians of the restroom who used an incident that they essentially created in another state to get signatures in California.

For all the talk about the terrible things transgender people such as myself hypothetically do in the restroom, there seems to be little to no proof to back their claims. No incidents to cite, etc. At least, nothing factual. Yet in comparison there are multitudes of incidents featuring solely cisgender restroom occupants, but I guess that's not important.

As a society, we don't really raise much fuss (or any) about gays and lesbians using the restrooms anymore, which is odd, because that right there, is the type of person in the restroom who would be the most interested in seeing the bits of the same sex, but... no? Wait, nothing? They just want to pee too? Well, okay then!

It's easy to demonize, set aside empathy, and talk of someone as the other. But these kids are human beings. They deserve the chance to live and flourish as the gender they identify. Denying their identity even the tiniest bit, or forcing them to use the facilities of and/or live as their assigned sex, is putting them through trauma you cannot fathom unless you have experienced it yourself. Kids today are a lot more understanding and accepting than they were in previous generations. They really do not care if a trans kid is using the stall next to them. The problem lies solely with the adults who can't accept anything outside of the norm that are making this an issue.

I'm going to tell her that whatever her problems are, they aren't solvable by changing her ability to use the BOYS restroom.

As yes the good ol' "for the children" appeal of it all. It's pathetic, The argument can be boiled down to 'lets change the rules so that group X feels more comfortable, and if group Y feels uncomfortable, then they're homophobic bigots.'

You think there might be any number of boys who might be uncomfortable at sharing a bathroom with a girl or girls uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a boy? What about them? Don't you care about those children? or is it ok to ***on them because you think they're bigots?

We shall not tolerate the intolerant

^^


STOP HATING DEPRESSED PEOPLE SOMETHING SOMETHING BIGOT ETC

Maybe the parent's should actually make the difficult choice and deal with their daughter's mental illness instead of just passing them off to the world horribly confused and having everyone else deal with it and try their best to ignore it. The only people ignoring their problems are the parents.

Have you ever spoken to the parents of a transgender child? Do you not think they exhaust every avenue of investigation into the issue? You think anything they do is going to be easy? I don't know you, but this is a truly disgusting thing to have written.

The transgender child is going to be uncomfortable no matter which restroom or locker room they go to. There is no avoiding it. It's not going to be awkward for the transgender boy that believes he is a girl when he is in the locker room, see breasts all around and looks down at their own penis? That won't make them feel awkward or even worse?

The solution to make everyone feel uncomfortable makes zero sense. It is completely selfish behavior.

Your assumptions about me are about as valid as your assumptions about anyone else. It's a shame they're also the basis for everything you've said here.

Please don't sling fecal matter at one another calling their opinions "fake." No good can come of these blind assumptions and it only makes you gain enmity which leads to endless trolling.

NINE PAGES.

There has to be some middle ground. I actually agree with your points. There is a visual factor present here, particularly if the patient is undergoing hormone therapy.

Your point about the the transgender seeing breasts brings concerns to mind. I see some transgenders develop this cosmetic surgery obsession that never ends: silicone injections, lower rib removal, mandible shaping, breast augmentation, rhinoplasty etc...

Secondly is taunting, this creates a new platform to taunt transgender students.

I've been avoiding joining this idiocy as I recognize that it is like debating calculus with lemurs (sorry, Anna Ruthven, I know you don't want insults but this one needs to have been said). The overwhelming majority of people saying truly outrageous and disgusting things, to say nothing of the rampant misogyny that tends to accompany the inherent homophobia and transphobia associated to this topic, have never met a transgender person in their life. I know this with surety. I can also predict with certainty that one of them will deny this assertion.

But it is that assertion which is fundamentally at the core of this issue: the rights of transgendered people are so miniscule in impact that the very notion of being bothered or offended in any way by them is nonsense. The state of being transgendered is so unbelievably rare that it is amazing the idea even exists in the public consciousness. As usual, though, and as this thread demonstrates: the public still doesn't have a bloody clue what it means. Doesn't stop you ignorant tools from spouting your unfounded and worthless opinion, though.

I have seen lots of complaints about bathrooms, discomfort, and special accommodations. Where are any of you getting any of this? The notion of gendered bathrooms is pretty irrelevant: it's where we go to eliminate waste. I'm a homosexual male and I am NEVER comfortable in a public bathroom because there are other people there. It wouldn't make a bit of difference if they had lady parts or not. I want to eliminate in peace and that should be all anyone wants, unless you're a peeper or someone else with severe boundary issues. Trans people neither need nor are asking for special facilities.

If we want to talk about bathroom accommodations, as someone who has been forced into a few girls' bathrooms in his life, the one thing I find really obnoxious are the mirrors. Boys' rooms rarely have a bank of mirrors like girls' do. It's all irrelevant in public places that cater to adults, though, as suddenly all the mens' rooms have big mirrors, too. The law, if you bothered to actually read the bill in question, is designed to remove any kind of sex-based difference in treatment. Personally, I don't care if there's a woman or a female-to-male transsexual or a chimpanzee in the stall in the bathroom, so long as they keep the thing clean.

In fact, come to that, having seen what men do to bathrooms when they're drunk and/or stupid, I want to have more biologically-female men in my bathroom. Cleanliness acculturation tends to stick around regardless of one's declared gender.

I don't feel like trying to sift through this tripe, but has anyone mentioned the only relevant part of the law: that people (of any gender) with higher testosterone are biologically stronger than those with lower? It really only comes into play for athletes over the age of roughly 15, but I would question the eligibility of a 6'3" transgendered girl with a boy's musculature being on the basketball team or, similarly, the danger posed to a 5'4" transgendered boy on the football team. Then again, I think football should be outlawed, seeing as it and its sexed complement - cheerleading - are the leading causes of sports-related student injury and death. But that's a rant for a different day.

I don't have an easy answer for the sports problem of a biological male on the girls' team, though. Then again, I'll return to my original point that probably no one can point to an experience of this problem coming up. I've seen plenty of biologically-female girls wanting to be on wrestling teams and football teams, though, and eventually the lack of any real argument against it meant they got to join. Funny how I, as a male ballet dancer, was treated like crap by my all-female dance school but no one actually protested my being there. It does show that gender bias is a two-way street, though.

We are not dismissing unisex restrooms. Restrooms have to function as a production system to cycle though a large number of people at one time. Creating a few unisex bathroom that cannot handle the work load of all the people needing to use them will not fit into that function. It actually slows the process down.

One would have to create a unisex system that would allow for people to be in one room of many rooms to be useful. I would actually be for that. ( I have poopaphobia)


You could put cameras in a "washroom" which could observe all the small rooms but not be inside those small rooms to eliminate the rape issues.

Even if you out a few out there, what happens when those few people cannot get into a single serve restroom? You can't make it just for them. That ruins the equality issue.

This is just the tip of the iceberg on the situation as a whole.

What do you do in locker room situations? Female coaches can walk into a girls locker room and check to make sure everything is alright. What happens when Johnny decides he's a female now and wants to play on the girls team? How will that coach check on him to make sure he is ok?

Is it fair for girls to have to compete for sports positions against males that decide they are female? Genetically males are superior in strength. In this situation you are forcing your will onto others.

I just see a plethora of problems this creates for a small amount of people. I see more problems than it is worth. If you have a hermaphrodite in your school I can see making special exemptions for them. However just cause you feel wishy washy on weather you are girl or not doesn't mean everyone should have to accommodate for you. To me that is the biggest form of inequality there is. Fact is you are asking for special treatment even though you fit into the standard that if you have a penis or vagina you use the according restroom.

1. For the last time, unisex bathrooms needn't be a replacement for gendered bathrooms. I merely contend that they serve to be a useful addition.

2. (Also) for the last time, not once did I suggest that unisex bathrooms address the entirety of the issue. They were mentioned during the discussion; I listed some of their potential benefits. You misunderstand the scope of my comments.

3. I don't have an answer for the sports issue. Then again, I never claimed to (see above).

4. We aren't talking about people who are "wishy-washy" about their gender. You reveal your misunderstanding of what transgenderism actually involves--in the case of these students, a long process of observation under the direction of an accredited mental health professional. Transgender people in general are quite certain of their gender. That's kind of the point lol

Allow me to preface this by saying I have no knowledge of the person I'm quoting and mean nothing as a personal attack. I'm just curious what the generally acceptable behavior is with regards to this.

If I see someone that clearly seems male wearing female clothes, my brain processes 'guy' subconsciously and consciously decides 'trans' because of clothing cues. Of course, I would not try to make them feel uncomfortable, or even say anything with regards to it, but that's what's going to be going through my head. Is the normal opinion that this shouldn't be the case? Should a transexual be treated completely like their inner sex by everyone under all conditions?

Hypothetically, a pre-op trans wants to flirt with a guy. When is the appropriate time to tell them that you have a penis? If the guy can recognize you're biologically male on their own, and that is a dealbreaker for them, what is the appropriate response for them to give with regards to your situation?

Ginny and others can chime in, but I'll give you my .02 cents. Is this a nightclub, special event or the grocery store? Many gay men cross-dress aka drag queens as a form of entertainment. So if I see a man in woman's clothes at a nightclub I process gay man in "drag." If this is the grocery store or the subway I process transgender. I treat gays in drag like I treat any other male. Transgenders I treat like the sex they identify. It is hard to differentiate sometimes, some gay men do get cosmetic surgery done to "enhance their career" so the lines blur a bit.

Most trans women I know inform them. But also most men into transgender women e.g. kinda know what to expect. Also transgenders for the most part don't just randomly flirt with people, just like gay/lesbians they go to special venues or phone apps to for dating/hookups.

Just out of curiosity where are these numbers/percentages coming from?

While men died from war/hunting, actually being pregnant and giving birth killed a lot of women. So, I'm curious as to who calculated this and what methodology they used.

The time has probably passed and this is irrelevant, but did you stick with it into your teens or did you quit? Just out of curiosity.

Also how do you qualify passing your genes, infant mortality was off the charts as well.

Started when I was 11, quit when I was 18. It was originally to improve some physical problems but I stuck with it because I enjoyed it in spite of the environment.

That's good. The high school had to offer it as a fine art extra credit to guys in athletics so we could even get a partner for duets. Glad you somewhat enjoyed it. I was a little astounded just because you see young boys who end up dropping it in middle school for the reason you stated.

EDIT: Basically we ended up with human props. :/

Everything is a joke to me. I don't particularly like to be completely serious often. However, in the sense you mean, it is not a "joke" to me. If someone here was hurt by my "flippant attitude" I sincerely apologize.

What i do think is a joke, is making accommodations that inconvenience many people, or will create more severe problems, to make 10 seconds a day easier for a single person. As Onorgul points out "most of these primates have never met a trans person".... because they're less common than a shiny pokemon (meant as a compliment if anything, not to belittle).

I had a rant about abusing the system, and why I think it's an awful idea (other than "giving a mouse a cookie" for incredibly minute special interest groups) but I'm just going to not bother. I really just wanted to apologize to anyone I may have slighted by expressing my opinion in a carefree manner.


I actually read the rest of your rant despite the spouting of your rehearsed rhetoric and the fact that you are incredibly butt hurt. I don't agree with you but I still respect that you have your own opinion (and you call others ignorant fools).

I disagree, but you should 1) check yourself because your attitude and tone only hurt your cause (a cause that you're going to take to heart a lot more than me as I am going to forget to remember this topic in a week). 2) check yourself because stress is a killer and if you're truly getting this analy ravaged over a video game forum discussing politics you're going to have a heart condition by 40. 3) remember life is too short man. I love you as a fellow human being and for what it's worth: I am genuinely sorry if any of my previous comments contributed to your current upsettedness. I'm sorry that there may have been times in your life you felt judged/persecuted for your sexuality.

I don't think perpetuating a community mentality of constant victim complex is helping you out though. That's not a shot, it's my opinion (even though you have decided yours is the only one that matters - this one is a shot). Pleebo isn't going to correct YOUR tone or attitude, but it doesn't help you along anymore than mine does me.

I think the point is to get it to where they are comfortable as well as everyone else... Going to the bathroom should not make someone uncomfortable... I mean when I walk into the bathroom I do my business and get out of there and there's no second thought about it... why should it be any different for anyone else? It's not about making everyone uncomfortable... its about finding a way to make everyone comfy...

I mean I sympathize with the whole mentality that people can only view things one way and kinda place a bit of fear or confusion on a topic that many of us don't really understand... but really... Once you place yourself in the situation you probably wouldn't ever even know let alone care...

I just said pats not gonna come up to you and say "You got shiny penis there I wish mine looked like that" the person isn't just claiming to be a boy, they are a boy and if you were a girl I would saying the same thing to you, pat is a girl, not a dude(in this instance). No one is ogling your junk, in fact a trans is going to be terrified that you think they are looking at your junk. If you aren't wired to be attracted to a dude you wont be attracted to a transgender. While I don't know the wording in this law a transgender is someone who truly identifies and believes themselves to be the opposite sex. Not filling right in their own skin and living as the sex they where born to is causing them problems. Do you think it would make you more comfortable if a girl walked into the men's dressing room took off her padded bra and put on her gym shorts you would feel more comfortable with this? Then a guy walking in with his chest tapped up?

I called several of the people here "tools," not "fools." There's a very distinct and meaningful difference.

Anyhow, this isn't my cause. In spite of being one of those rare people who has actually met transgendered and even transsexual people (FYI: if I was really on a tear, I'd start shouting at every person who confuses those), they're still an unbelievably rare blip on the radar. At least protestations against *** have some ridiculous merit because homosexuality, in all its various definitions, represents 10-25% of the population. That's pretty significant. The hateful spew I've seen in this thread, though, is being directed at the misperceived special treatment of a demographic that barely exists. My annoyance is mostly about that. It just isn't a productive discussion to worry whether the person in the stall next to you has the same genitals, in spite of that having been the bulk of the whining I've seen here.

Also, I'm a cynic, so I'm going to read your milk-of-human-kindness stuff in a mocking voice. I really don't buy it. But on the off chance that you're not speaking out of your rectum, I'm really in no danger of stress-related consequences. Ignoring that I am quite healthy (recent hospital visit confirmed that), I deliberately exaggerate my language to draw attention. Forums, especially video game forums, tend to have the same air as a kindergarten schoolyard, so having the verbal equivalent of a screaming fit is just a way of being noticed.

I am open to the idea of reasoned debate, but when the arguments being proffered are "Girls with penises can't poop in my bathroom 'cause it freaks me out in some unspecified and highly hypothetical way," it demotivates me to acknowledge that person's opinion.