(CA) K-12 Transgender Law Repeal

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(CA) K-12 Transgender Law Repeal
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-11 21:09:36
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Calif. Transgender Law Repeal Will Qualify

Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Opponents of a new California law that gives transgender students certain rights said Sunday that they had collected enough signatures for an initiative that would repeal the law.

A coalition of conservative groups called Privacy for all Students submitted 620,000 signatures to get the initiative on the November 2014 ballot, said Frank Schubert, the political strategist handling the signature gathering effort.

To qualify, at least 505,000 valid signatures must be submitted. To verify the signatures, each of California’s 58 counties will first check that the overall count is correct, then conduct a random sampling to make sure they are legitimate. After that, it is likely the state would order a full review.

If, after all of the reviews, the group has the requisite number of valid signatures, the initiative would qualify for the ballot.

“Many people said we had no chance to collect over half a million signatures in just 90 days, but we have proven them wrong by gathering over 115,000 more signatures than the minimum needed,” Gina Gleason of the group Faith and Public Policy, said in a statement.

California is the first state to pass a law detailing the rights of transgender K-12 students.

One of the provisions gives transgender students the choice of playing on either boys or girls sports teams. It also allows them to choose which restroom that want to use.

Gov. Jerry Brown signed the law, AB1266, in September. It goes into effect Jan. 1.


The goal of the law is to reduce discrimination against transgender students.

John O’Connor, executive director of Equality California, the organization that co-sponsored the transgender student law, said he was alarmed by the initiative effort.

“Protecting this law is our number one priority, and we will put everything we’ve got into it,” O’Connor said, adding that he believes public opinion is opposed to discrimination against LGBT people.

The effort to repeal the law got a boost last month when the National Organization for Marriage, which organized the 2008 ballot initiative that outlawed gay marriage in California, joined the effort.

Schubert, who helped organize the signature push, previously led successful campaigns to block same-sex marriage in Maine and North Carolina.

Supporters of the repeal effort argue the law violates the privacy of non-transgender students.

They said 400,000 of the signatures gathered were done by volunteers, as opposed to 220,000 collected by paid staff.

“It shows the degree of opposition that exists to opening the most vulnerable areas of public schools to the opposite sex,” Karen England of Capitol Resources Institute, a coalition member, said in a statement.

This whole story reminds me of the scene from Gun Hill Road, and the transgender student takes the key to the girls restroom everytime and the teacher lectures her parents about it.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-11-11 21:18:06
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Wait, what rights are being challenged?

Which teams they want to play? Which restrooms they want to use?

What is the big deal anyway? Unless girls start peeing standing up, I don't see a problem with this tbh.

I think that the issue is the protection of those who are not "special needs," if you even want to consider that. Everyone is so gung-ho about the needs of the special, but what about the needs of the not-"special" people out there?
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-11 21:22:19
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Which restrooms they want to use?

The restrooms are the big deal for most parents. It caused a protest outside of Los Angeles Unified School Disctrict(LAUSD), one of the biggest school districts in the state, when the bill was signed by Gov. Brown.

Parents Rally Outside LAUSD Offices Over Transgender Bathroom Bill
 Odin.Liela
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By Odin.Liela 2013-11-11 21:27:38
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I may be just shamefully unabashed here or something, but so what if a transgender student uses the same bathroom as a traditional student? The bathrooms have doors on them, right? No one is going to see anything, right? A boy, a girl, an alien, and a purple people eater could all be in their separate stalls doing their separate business and never see each other's privates, right? In fact, you'd have to really be trying to see someone else's bathroom time in order to actually see it.

There are also closed stalls in locker rooms. And loads of places have both-gender bathrooms. Most gas stations here do, anyways. I just don't get what the issue is.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-11-11 21:40:10
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The concern about selecting the bathroom doesn't make sense unless we're talking about informally diagnoised transgender children who still identify themselves as their original sex, which is a bigger problem since minors having this operation is extremely rare.

This usually isn't something that happens in K-12 since generally speaking the operation isn't performed on minors and even with respect to adults there is 2-5 yrs worth of psychological evalutions involved.

That being said there are cases of transgender men and women maintaining a heterosexual attraction post op, with respect to their pre-op biological gender. i.e Men who became women but are attracted to women and vice versa.

At the same time there is still the possiblity of this happening with hermaphrodites who had their gender chosen for them at birth and their body and mind decided differently down the line. Which is more common than minor's with legitimate transgender operations.

There is something about this that doesn't seem grounded in reality.
 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-11-11 21:42:43
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Odin.Liela said: »
I just don't get what the issue is.
Because a diverse and tolerant world is a terrifying thought to the people that push these kinds of initiatives. It's not surprising in the least that an organization like NOM would stick their noses in something like this. These people know that acceptance in the law is an indication of acceptance in the larger society, and they would like nothing more than to sweep the non-traditional elements back under the rug and hope they stay there permanently this time. If transgenders start getting "special rights" (i.e. rights that everyone else enjoys), it makes their insular little bubble that much harder to maintain.
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-11-11 21:43:53
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Transgender doesn't mean you have had an operation, it just means you identify with the gender you were not assigned.
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2013-11-11 21:44:50
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Odin.Liela said: »
I just don't get what the issue is.

the issues is that ppl want to *** and ppl love drama. They need a target to attack and what better target then a group that is so small in comparison.

As for the issue itself, its insane. And just another example of ppl trying to separate everyone and go own there own power trip.

Quote:
“Protecting this law is our number one priority, and we will put everything we’ve got into it,” O’Connor said

I would expect nothing less in this day and age. Your agenda is always #1, not the ppl (no matter what side)

Quote:
The effort to repeal the law got a boost last month when the National Organization for Marriage, which organized the 2008 ballot initiative that outlawed gay marriage in California, joined the effort.

one has nothing to do with the other. Again, pushing own agendas.

Quote:
“It shows the degree of opposition that exists to opening the most vulnerable areas of public schools to the opposite sex,” Karen England of Capitol Resources Institute, a coalition member, said in a statement.

Apparently, she needs a dictionary to look the meaning of transgender
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2013-11-11 21:46:43
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Odin.Liela said: »
I just don't get what the issue is.
Because a diverse and tolerant world is a terrifying thought to the people that push these kinds of initiatives. It's not surprising in the least that an organization like NOM would stick their noses in something like this. These people know that acceptance in the law is an indication of acceptance in the larger society, and they would like nothing more than to sweep the non-traditional elements back under the rug and hope they stay there permanently this time. If transgenders start getting "special rights" (i.e. rights that everyone else enjoys), it makes their insular little bubble that much harder to maintain.

i think hell must be freezing over if im actually in agreement with pleebo... /panic ;)
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-11-11 21:49:53
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Odin.Godofgods said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Odin.Liela said: »
I just don't get what the issue is.
Because a diverse and tolerant world is a terrifying thought to the people that push these kinds of initiatives. It's not surprising in the least that an organization like NOM would stick their noses in something like this. These people know that acceptance in the law is an indication of acceptance in the larger society, and they would like nothing more than to sweep the non-traditional elements back under the rug and hope they stay there permanently this time. If transgenders start getting "special rights" (i.e. rights that everyone else enjoys), it makes their insular little bubble that much harder to maintain.

i think hell must be freezing over if im actually in agreement with pleebo... /panic ;)
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-11 21:53:15
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
The concern about selecting the bathroom doesn't make sense unless we're talking about informally diagnoised transgender children who still identify themselves as their original sex, which is a bigger problem since minors having this operation is extremely rare.

EDIT:It can be diagnosed at an early age. There are cases where it has been diagnosed at the elementary school level. However, I have a feeling requesting such information may impede on medical privacy rights, as I stated in my OP. Surgical reassignment or hormone therapy is at the provision of a psych, so you can't expect all transgenders to have MTF/FTM reassignment surgery based on age.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-11-11 22:00:13
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
Transgender doesn't mean you have had an operation, it just means you identify with the gender you were not assigned.

If we go with that definition of "transgender", then it's more trouble than it's worth.

Main reasons being potential rape of transgender girls identifying themselves as boys, especially in light of the rape culture that is present in our society.

You also have the converse of this and something Kingnobody alluded to indirectly which would be the complaints of self indentifying heterosexual males with regards to self indentified transgender males being amongst females in the locker room and bathrooms as some sort of priviledge.

Even though in reality the transgender male could be much safer there than in the boys room, given the nature of intolerance among insecure youth..and even then there might be issues amongst the girls,and might actually require a "third" bathroom/locker room which would then become a budget issue and thats an other can of worms that would get negative attention.

Sadly we haven't progressed that far as a society, and besides this is real life not MTV. There are certain things about society you have to accept when you grow up in it. There is an ever present institutionalization and expectation to conform to the standards of generalized society. As an adult you can choose where and how you want to live but as a teenager you are kind of stuck in the tenents of the puritan institution...at least in the US.

I'm just one of those type of people that believe human beings aren't as accepting as we idealize ourselves to be. I would hope we live in a culture like the polynesians and native americans who have acceptance and even reverence for LGBTs but unfortunately I find American society clings hard onto its puritan roots.


Edit: all types of edits but I'm done.
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-11 22:08:11
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
If we go with that definition of "transgender", then it's more trouble than it's worth.

Bingo bingo bingo!!!



You have some homosexuals who do cross-dress simply for leisure/fun, who would not pass a gender dysphoria diagnosis and thus not be considered a "transgender." Should they then be allowed to use the female restroom?
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-11-11 22:44:37
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If you have to have an operation to be considered transgender, then how do you diagnose anyone in the first place??? Zerowone was talking about sex reassignment at a young age being rare when it's nonexistent. There are no post-op k-12 students.

Quote:
The concern about selecting the bathroom doesn't make sense unless we're talking about informally diagnoised transgender children who still identify themselves as their original sex, which is a bigger problem since minors having this operation is extremely rare.

This usually isn't something that happens in K-12 since generally speaking the operation isn't performed on minors and even with respect to adults there is 2-5 yrs worth of psychological evalutions involved.

This is what I was commenting on.


The entire post is problematic because (1.) there is no such thing as a transgender person who identifies with their assigned sex. By definition, a transgender person does not identify with their assigned sex. (2.) It appears to assume that you have to be post-op to be transgender. Not all transgender people are old enough to get, or can/ever will be able to afford SRS. and (3.) these are just two glaring problems nested among other problems.
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 Phoenix.Amandarius
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2013-11-11 22:58:59
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It is better to make every little girl uncomfortable then it is to make one little boy that thinks he is a girl poop in the same bathroom as other little boys.

How does the LGB community get lumped in with people with a severe mental disorder?
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-11-11 23:05:04
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Because it wasn't too long ago that the same thing was said about the Ls, Gs, and Bs.
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 Alexander.Carrelo
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By Alexander.Carrelo 2013-11-11 23:05:35
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Oh lawd help us.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-11-11 23:05:39
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
It is better to make every little girl uncomfortable then it is to make one little boy that thinks he is a girl poop in the same bathroom as other little boys.

How does the LGB community get lumped in with people with a severe mental disorder?

Sometimes it's hard to say how any of them get lumped together, because generally (LG), B, and T clash pretty badly and often L and G get along pretty badly, too.
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-11 23:12:39
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Yes, Zerowone was incorrect to bring SRS into the discussion. Neither SRS(sex-reassignment surgery) or HRT(hormone replacment therapy) define a transgender. They are at the provision of the psych, so they may or may not "need" them etc...

I think Zerowone's points were mainly directed at informally diagnosed transgenders. We have shows like Ru Paul's Drag Race which glamorize cross-dressing as an art, which in-turn completely disregard it as a symptom of gender dysphoria.

Not all K-12 drag-queens are going to experience "dysphoria" with their assigned sex. So it does create a mess of things. A bigger mess than Mystique Summers from season two.

"Bit#h I'm from Chicago!"

Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
How does the LGB community get lumped in with people with a severe mental disorder?
Edit: Completely different thread/topic, but for the most part it's politically driven.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-11-11 23:20:49
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There is still the issue of people born as hermaphrodites who have their gender assigned for them by their parents and then develop the mental and physiological traits that are the opposite of that choice.

This happens it is not common but it happens.
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-11-11 23:23:46
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That's a whole 'nother thread.
 Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2013-11-11 23:31:02
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I think I should be allowed to go to the bathroom everywhere period nothin better than lettin it fly when I need to
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-11-12 00:03:46
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Well I did state that SRS doesn't happen with minors, its even in the last line of what I was quoted on. I don't even think a doctor or surgeon would legitimatly entertain the concept with respect to minors.

For my own personal opinion I do think you need to be post op to be considered transgender. But that's just the way I define it in my mind, just as I define homoerotic and homosexual as two completely different things. Same with tolerance versus acceptance. I blame it on the cultural anthropolgy courses I took when I was bouncing around in attempt to avoid picking a major.

But to stay slightly on topic what really needs to happen for the US culture to move forward is to somehow obtain the level of acceptance Polynesian culture has for its fa'afafine

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-11-12 00:12:56
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Your opinion is wrong.
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-11-12 00:24:55
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Thats fine, I don't think the term transgender properlly defines a feminine minded male or a masculine minded female. Come up with a better defining prefix and I'd be inclined to agree.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-11-12 00:30:15
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trans (opposite) gender (gender)

how much more literal can you get
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By Ciri Zireael 2013-11-12 00:35:36
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-11-12 00:38:32
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I think he's just confusing gender identity (what he calls "mindedness") with sex (depending on context, this can be genotype or phenotype, but phenotype is probably the most appropriate context for most gender identity discussions).
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-12 00:39:33
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Transgender is deeper than just a mindset. Transgendered people often speak about being trapped in someone else's body, or viewing their genitalia as a cancerous tumor.

Adolescence is an awkward enough time, transgendered adolescents are at extremely high risk for self destructive behavior and suicide. Forcing the rest of the school body to endure the superficial discomfort of sharing a restroom with someone they may see as the opposite sex is a small price to pay for what can amount to life and death for their transgendered peers.

Sooner or later the bible thumpers are going to have to retire to their place of worship and let the world move on.
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 Bahamut.Baconwrap
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-12 00:42:04
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First, Godofgods agreed with Pleebo, now I am agreeing with most of Sylow's posts. Surely Hell must be freezing over now with this thread!

Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
But to stay slightly on topic what really needs to happen for the US culture to move forward is to somehow obtain the level of acceptance Polynesian culture has for its fa'afafine

American culture isn't solely to blame- some of the blame should be directed at the medical and transgender community. They cannot and will not come to an agreement on a clear definition of "transgenderism." Consequently, the issue has trickled down to trans-youth at the K-12 level.

While the definition of transgender/gender dysphoria, in the DSM-V is a vast improvement to prior editions, it's utter *** imo. It's incredibly vague and ambiguous.

Quote:
It appears that DSM-V giveth and it taketh away. On one hand, gender dysphoria may align DSM-V with current moves to affirm trans identity, but on the other, concerns over Tranvestic Disorder’s broad and damaging nature may undercut the good found in the first change.

Experts in the field of psychiatry are concerned about the influence of this volume. Ron Rosenbaum wrote about the DSM in “The Gonzo Neurologist,” an article about Oliver Sacks in the December 2012 edition of The Smithsonian: ”[The DSM's] supposedly objective quantifiable ‘criteria’ for mental illness … [reshapes] the way we think about what is ‘normal’ and what is ‘malfunctioning’ … because the health insurance industry demands a certifiable DMS diagnosis from a psychiatrist before it will agree to subsidize payment for medication and treatment.”

Sacks compares the use of the DMS in diagnosis to using “a sledgehammer rather than a scapel, obliterating questions such as what is the difference between ‘justified’ sadness and clinical depression.”

The British Psychological Society in the United Kingdom has an equally harsh response, stating that it has “more concerns than plaudits”. Like Sacks, the Society criticized proposed diagnoses as “clearly based largely on social norms, with ‘symptoms’ that all rely on subjective judgements … not value-free, but rather reflect[ing] current normative social expectations.” Other doubts about the reliability, validity, and value of existing criteria are that personality disorders were not normed on the general population. In addition, “not otherwise specified” categories covered a “huge” 30% of all personality disorders.
Reviews on DMS-V Mixed
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