(CA) K-12 Transgender Law Repeal
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(CA) K-12 Transgender Law Repeal
No its because I define transgender as post op which means I define it as transexual. Which means I should have said suffix instead of prefix. That as others have said earlier that gender dysphoria in the k-12 age range is slightly suspect and to make exceptions for it any capacity in the public school system creates more problems than it solves.
I mean, we actually agree pretty frequently we just *** at each other either way.
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: » No its because I define transgender as post op which means I define it as transexual. Which means I should have said suffix instead of prefix. That as others have said earlier that gender dysphoria in the k-12 age range is slightly suspect and to make exceptions for it any capacity in the public school system will creates more problems than it solves. The only fields where you get to define anything you want to mean whatever you want are mathematics and economics, and in one of those fields you have to prove that the definition is useful somehow.
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: » No its because I define transgender as post op which means I define it as transexual. Which means I should have said suffix instead of prefix. That as others have said earlier that gender dysphoria in the k-12 age range is slightly suspect and to make exceptions for it any capacity in the public school system creates more problems than it solves. It would be hard to believe that someone who hasn't even hit puberty could actually have a grasp on their gender identity, but those damn doctors keep saying they do. I generally trust informed professionals over my own intuition.
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Fenrir.Sylow said: » Lakshmi.Zerowone said: » No its because I define transgender as post op which means I define it as transexual. Which means I should have said suffix instead of prefix. That as others have said earlier that gender dysphoria in the k-12 age range is slightly suspect and to make exceptions for it any capacity in the public school system will creates more problems than it solves. The only fields where you get to define anything you want to mean whatever you want are mathematics and economics, and in one of those fields you have to prove that the definition is useful somehow. Its every field to be honest. When it comes to "transgender" with respect to mindedness, cultural anthropolgist for instance use a biological sex+gender role/identification label. I think we are only disagreeing on how we individually define the term transgender.
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Most people have been in a situation that made them think "man, things would be so different if everyone had experienced what I am now." We'd have a lot fewer social conflicts if more people could manage to keep this in mind when a stranger asks for help. Instead, the average person mocks anyone the slightest bit different and goes on pretending that a problem they can't see must not exist.
It's a shame that such a small number of people can even manage to consider a different point of view until they themselves (or sometimes a close friend or family member) end up in a tough situation. Helping someone out doesn't always mean doing exactly what they asked--why are we so afraid to feel a bit of empathy? Transgender students wanting to use the bathroom without their clothes calling a bunch of unwanted attention? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Gay people wanting to create spaces in which they can have a conversation without bothering or being bothered by the heteronormative majority? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Black people wanting to use the same drinking fountains as white people? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT."
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: » make exceptions for it any capacity in the public school system creates more problems than it solves. EDIT: With that said, that doesn't give gay men the right, who choose to do "drag" because Lady Gaga said it was fierce, to go to school and use the girl's restroom and abuse such K-12 transgender laws.
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I agree whole heartidly. Its just that I dont see the "heteronormative WASP" aspect of American society jiving with it anytime soon.
Odin.Liela said: » I may be just shamefully unabashed here or something, but so what if a transgender student uses the same bathroom as a traditional student? The bathrooms have doors on them, right? No one is going to see anything, right? A boy, a girl, an alien, and a purple people eater could all be in their separate stalls doing their separate business and never see each other's privates, right? In fact, you'd have to really be trying to see someone else's bathroom time in order to actually see it. There are also closed stalls in locker rooms. And loads of places have both-gender bathrooms. Most gas stations here do, anyways. I just don't get what the issue is. By this logic all restrooms should be unisex. I don't think people will be comfortable unless the stalls are completely closed off like porta potties then, maybe. If the restroom thing is to work, they would have to have some way of verifying the legitimacy of a person's transgender claims. And then they would need to somehow 'convince' the rest of the students to feel comfortable with a person who is, physically, of the opposite sex being in their proximity while they are tinkling and pooping or being in the proximity of him/her while they do their thing. And one more thing is that would they expect this after they graduate? Unless, this somehow spreads and becomes more universal, which unlikely due to the increased number of people and venues plus the added issue of being complete strangers. And I don't really see how the sports can work since overall, males have an innate physical advantage over their female counterparts. The male frame is just built better for strenuous physical tasks. Males also have about 25-30% faster reaction times on average, which is huge. No matter how much you want it, how strongly you feel it, or how much you change your physical appearance you cannot change you genetics; you cannot change xx to xy or vice versa. Quetzalcoatl.Khrnos said: » And I don't really see how the sports can work since overall, males have an innate physical advantage over their female counterparts. The male frame is just built better for strenuous physical tasks. Males also have about 25-30% faster reaction times on average, which is huge. No matter how much you want it, how strongly you feel it, or how much you change your physical appearance you cannot change you genetics; you cannot change xx to xy or vice versa. Coach Bob: "Damn that team! They only reason they won is cause they got players on testosterone!" The law isn't particularly unique. Several states and cities have similar anti-discriminatory laws like this and as far as I can tell, there are no reports of abuse of the law. The only groups making it an issue are the concern trolls like NOM and their ilk.
Shiva.Viciousss said: » wtf guys? Alexander.Carrelo said: » Most people have been in a situation that made them think "man, things would be so different if everyone had experienced what I am now." We'd have a lot fewer social conflicts if more people could manage to keep this in mind when a stranger asks for help. Instead, the average person mocks anyone the slightest bit different and goes on pretending that a problem they can't see must not exist. It's a shame that such a small number of people can even manage to consider a different point of view until they themselves (or sometimes a close friend or family member) end up in a tough situation. Helping someone out doesn't always mean doing exactly what they asked--why are we so afraid to feel a bit of empathy? Transgender students wanting to use the bathroom without their clothes calling a bunch of unwanted attention? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Gay people wanting to create spaces in which they can have a conversation without bothering or being bothered by the heteronormative majority? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Black people wanting to use the same drinking fountains as white people? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." This is a totally different field than segregation and bigotry. Another galaxy at that. While I do understand that people feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, there are all kinds of complications that can arise when you have young adolescent males in a locker room staring at a woman that identifies herself as a male mentally. Lets face it, shes gonna have titties in the later years and a guy is going to stare or make her feel uncomfortable. This movement would only make for a push in unisex lockers and restrooms as it would be the only true way to making things equal for all. Not sure if this is the best answer. I would think making a law that would put a unisex restroom in every new school or add them to schools, that have an as need basis, would be a better solution. I could only imagine how a hermaphrodite gets this life not belonging to one group or another.....It has to be something awful feeling like you don't belong to either group. Oh, unisex bathrooms definitely go a long way towards solving this particular issue. I'm just using it as an example of a more general problem with the way that people treat each other.
Alexander.Carrelo said: » Oh, unisex bathrooms definitely go a long way towards solving this particular issue. I'm just using it as an example of a more general problem with the way that people treat each other. I don't think unisex restrooms would solve this dilemma if anything I think it would make it worse. Part of being transgender is identifying as a different sex not as "unisex." One is going to the girls restroom b/c they emotionally feel they are a girl. Bahamut.Baconwrap said: » Alexander.Carrelo said: » Oh, unisex bathrooms definitely go a long way towards solving this particular issue. I'm just using it as an example of a more general problem with the way that people treat each other. I don't think unisex restrooms would solve this dilemma if anything I think it would make it worse. Part of being transgender is identifying as different sex not as "unisex." One is going to the girls restroom b/c they emotionally feel they are a girl. I support the idea of allowing transgender students to use the bathroom that corresponds to their preferred gender. But I also support the use of unisex bathrooms as a stopgap in the meantime. Fumiku said: » Alexander.Carrelo said: » Most people have been in a situation that made them think "man, things would be so different if everyone had experienced what I am now." We'd have a lot fewer social conflicts if more people could manage to keep this in mind when a stranger asks for help. Instead, the average person mocks anyone the slightest bit different and goes on pretending that a problem they can't see must not exist. It's a shame that such a small number of people can even manage to consider a different point of view until they themselves (or sometimes a close friend or family member) end up in a tough situation. Helping someone out doesn't always mean doing exactly what they asked--why are we so afraid to feel a bit of empathy? Transgender students wanting to use the bathroom without their clothes calling a bunch of unwanted attention? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Gay people wanting to create spaces in which they can have a conversation without bothering or being bothered by the heteronormative majority? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Black people wanting to use the same drinking fountains as white people? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." This is a totally different field than segregation and bigotry. Another galaxy at that. While I do understand that people feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, there are all kinds of complications that can arise when you have young adolescent males in a locker room staring at a woman that identifies herself as a male mentally. Lets face it, shes gonna have titties in the later years and a guy is going to stare or make her feel uncomfortable. This movement would only make for a push in unisex lockers and restrooms as it would be the only true way to making things equal for all. Not sure if this is the best answer. I would think making a law that would put a unisex restroom in every new school or add them to schools, that have an as need basis, would be a better solution. I could only imagine how a hermaphrodite gets this life not belonging to one group or another.....It has to be something awful feeling like you don't belong to either group. Cerberus.Pleebo said: » Black oppression will never be the perfect analog for the LGBT movement but the parallels are extremely similar. I don't see this K-12 Transgender Law as part of the "LGBT movement" but rather patient rights. This ultimately isn't about equal treatment, but rather accommodating patients' prescription in the K-12 setting. It's the same thing as school accommodating a diabetic patient's insulin prescription, but instead the school is accommodating a transgender patient's prescription. It just so happens that the prescription for a transgender is a lot more complicated than a pill or syringe. Lakshmi.Zerowone said: » Fenrir.Sylow said: » Transgender doesn't mean you have had an operation, it just means you identify with the gender you were not assigned. If we go with that definition of "transgender", then it's more trouble than it's worth. Main reasons being potential rape of transgender girls identifying themselves as boys, especially in light of the rape culture that is present in our society. You also have the converse of this and something Kingnobody alluded to indirectly which would be the complaints of self indentifying heterosexual males with regards to self indentified transgender males being amongst females in the locker room and bathrooms as some sort of priviledge. Even though in reality the transgender male could be much safer there than in the boys room, given the nature of intolerance among insecure youth..and even then there might be issues amongst the girls,and might actually require a "third" bathroom/locker room which would then become a budget issue and thats an other can of worms that would get negative attention. Sadly we haven't progressed that far as a society, and besides this is real life not MTV. There are certain things about society you have to accept when you grow up in it. There is an ever present institutionalization and expectation to conform to the standards of generalized society. As an adult you can choose where and how you want to live but as a teenager you are kind of stuck in the tenents of the puritan institution...at least in the US. I'm just one of those type of people that believe human beings aren't as accepting as we idealize ourselves to be. I would hope we live in a culture like the polynesians and native americans who have acceptance and even reverence for LGBTs but unfortunately I find American society clings hard onto its puritan roots. Edit: all types of edits but I'm done. You might want to check the way the law is written then because it does use that definition of transgender. It's not talking about formally identified / operated on children, it's talking about any child who self identifies with any sexual orientation. One day little Billy decides he's a she and now she can go into the little girls room and play on the girls basketball team. It's actually a very big issue as the original law was far to broad. Of course the liberals jump to support it without first thinking it through, but hey they're liberals. Cerberus.Pleebo said: » Fumiku said: » Alexander.Carrelo said: » Most people have been in a situation that made them think "man, things would be so different if everyone had experienced what I am now." We'd have a lot fewer social conflicts if more people could manage to keep this in mind when a stranger asks for help. Instead, the average person mocks anyone the slightest bit different and goes on pretending that a problem they can't see must not exist. It's a shame that such a small number of people can even manage to consider a different point of view until they themselves (or sometimes a close friend or family member) end up in a tough situation. Helping someone out doesn't always mean doing exactly what they asked--why are we so afraid to feel a bit of empathy? Transgender students wanting to use the bathroom without their clothes calling a bunch of unwanted attention? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Gay people wanting to create spaces in which they can have a conversation without bothering or being bothered by the heteronormative majority? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." Black people wanting to use the same drinking fountains as white people? "NO SPECIAL TREATMENT." This is a totally different field than segregation and bigotry. Another galaxy at that. While I do understand that people feel that they are trapped in the wrong body, there are all kinds of complications that can arise when you have young adolescent males in a locker room staring at a woman that identifies herself as a male mentally. Lets face it, shes gonna have titties in the later years and a guy is going to stare or make her feel uncomfortable. This movement would only make for a push in unisex lockers and restrooms as it would be the only true way to making things equal for all. Not sure if this is the best answer. I would think making a law that would put a unisex restroom in every new school or add them to schools, that have an as need basis, would be a better solution. I could only imagine how a hermaphrodite gets this life not belonging to one group or another.....It has to be something awful feeling like you don't belong to either group. Because at the core, the issue at hand isn't something that is bigotry, the issue is medical. Ask yourself this, why do we have boys and woman's restrooms? The reason isn't medical it is because woman don't want to have men trying to stare at them all the time. It provides a certain comfort level. Bahamut.Baconwrap said: » Quetzalcoatl.Khrnos said: » And I don't really see how the sports can work since overall, males have an innate physical advantage over their female counterparts. The male frame is just built better for strenuous physical tasks. Males also have about 25-30% faster reaction times on average, which is huge. No matter how much you want it, how strongly you feel it, or how much you change your physical appearance you cannot change you genetics; you cannot change xx to xy or vice versa. Coach Bob: "Damn that team! They only reason they won is cause they got players on testosterone!" Not even remotely close, so far wrong it defies explanation. The hormone primarily responsible for massive muscle growth and bone structure is testosterone. The average male has between 400~1000 ng/dL of free testosterone in his blood. If he has under 300 ng/dL then he needs to see a doctor about therapy or medication (T gels). The average female has between 15~70 ng/dL of free testosterone in her blood. Statistically speaking the average male is stronger then 99.9% of the female population. You occasionally have an outlier but even those are dramatically limited in scope. The fastest women in the world wouldn't even qualify for a professional mens running team. The physiological differences between men and women are so vast that attempting to equate them is ridiculous. Call nature sexist if you want, but there is a reason men have XY and women have XX. Those chromosomes actually mean something. Your DNA isn't a social construct.
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Ok when I said hormone therapy you realize I meant testosterone right? How much testosterone is given to a biological female undergoing FTM I honestly don't know. Also I really doubt there have been studies comparing sports performance of teenage males vs teenage FTM undergoing testosterone therapy.
With that aside I think the sports/activities portion of this law isn't the controversial portion, but rather the restroom and facilities usage. Bahamut.Baconwrap said: » Ok when I said hormone therapy you realize I meant testosterone right? How much testosterone is given to a biological female undergoing FTM I honestly don't know. Also I really doubt there have been studies comparing sports performance of teenage males vs teenage FTM undergoing testosterone therapy. With that aside I think the sports/activities portion of this law isn't the controversial portion, but rather the restroom and facilities usage. I wouldn't say "as" controversial but it is definitely a factor. Men in sports dominate most females due to their strength. I see potential for more females hurt on the field depending on activity. Not only that, the ramifications on this will undermine the female community when and if males decide they are "Female". Basically once one male decides that he isn't fit competing against the Alpha males in his school, he can potentially become the alpha playing against females. Bahamut.Baconwrap said: » Ok when I said hormone therapy you realize I meant testosterone right? How much testosterone is given to a biological female undergoing FTM I honestly don't know. Also I really doubt there have been studies comparing sports performance of teenage males vs teenage FTM undergoing testosterone therapy. With that aside I think the sports/activities portion of this law isn't the controversial portion, but rather the restroom and facilities usage. That's my point, you have no f*cking clue what your talking about. Hormone therapy doesn't come close to replicating what the testicles naturally produce. Introducing that much artificial T into a natural women cause's all sorts of complications, you might want to look it up before opening your mouth. You can't biologically change a female into a male, the required parts just don't exist. What you can do is chop off a guys nuts which dramatically reduces his natural T levels then pump him full of estrogen and a few other female hormones, he still won't be a women but he'll be close enough. Now if you can do the surgery before he hits puberty then you'll prevent the majority of the permanent changes. Also there have been many studies into athletic performances between males and females at all levels. Females lose every time, though golf is fairly close. Steroids are just artificial testosterone, there is a reason why they are banned from professional athletics. Jack someone's T levels up and they become stronger, faster and immensely more aggressive. Females and transgenders lack this natural free T and there isn't a safe way to supply it. This is about biology not some liberal activist bullsh!t. Males and females are genetically different, they are not interchangeable. Significant changes happen to the brain chemistry, starting at the fetus and continue throughout development until adult, those changes are triggered by the presence or absence of a Y chromosome. First chill the *** out! Seriously seroquel does wonders for outburts like that- just saying.
Secondly, you're kinda missing the point of this bill and what it's trying to accomplish and what harm may come out of it. I don't think anyone(besides you two) is concerned about unfair advantages in high school sports. You're totally right this is biology. It extends far beyond liberalism and conservatism. It has to do with refusing medical treatment to a particular condition. Bahamut.Baconwrap said: » First chill the *** out! Seriously seroquel does wonders for outburts like that- just saying. Secondly, you're kinda missing the point of this bill and what it's trying to accomplish and what harm may come out of it. I don't think anyone(besides you two) is concerned about unfair advantages in high school sports. Plenty of people are concerned, about 620,000 of them. Your blind support of something you have zero idea about is appalling. And here you guys claim the Republicans are the uneducated non-science folks. Quote: You're totally right this is biology. It extends far beyond liberalism and conservatism. It has to do with refuting medical treatment to a particular condition. Not at all. And there is no medical condition known as transgender. Closest are the various gender identity disorders which have been ruled as psychological problems, not physical ones. They do blood tests to check your various hormonal levels and if they fall with the range of your gender then it's not biological. Cosmetic surgery to create the physical appearance of a different gender isn't even the recommended treatment (aka gender reassignment surgery), therapy sessions are. Did you do any actual medical research on this? Or are you just going along because this group of people likes to vote the same way you do? I don't know how I feel about this.
As someone with a urine fetish, I'd have quite a bit of incentive to use the girl's restroom. With my loose morals, I don't think I'd feel guilty doing so. Yet, somehow I doubt teenage me would be doing it. The social stigma associated with it would be much worse than any enjoyment gained. I really don't think people abusing the restroom system should be a concern. That said, I completely agree with Saevel in terms of sports. You can only go so far in humoring someone's psychiatric issues. Hormone therapy doesn't create a typical balance for either direction, and this is reflected both physically and mentally. The technology may someday be available, but at present it isn't. When you're talking K-12 sports, where hormone therapy is likely to be completely absent, a MTF playing women's sports would be incredibly unfair. If this was enacted, do you think the men dominating women's high school leagues would be allowed to do the same in college? How about in professional sports? The line will be drawn at some point, because it's a clear advantage and it would create outcries from the losing teams and their fans. Lakshmi.Saevel said: » Did you do any actual medical research on this? Or are you just going along because this group of people likes to vote the same way you do? Anyhow OP topic lol Bahamut.Baconwrap said: » Lakshmi.Saevel said: » Did you do any actual medical research on this? Or are you just going along because this group of people likes to vote the same way you do? Anyhow OP topic lol Again there is no such thing as "medically identified as transgender". It's Gender Identity Disorder which is recognized as a mental disorder by the international medical community. The US medical community used to recognize it until political lobbying by liberals got them to reclassify it as some sort of pseudo-biological-quasi-psychological "problem". There is nothing physically wrong with you, yet the LGBT community disliked it being called a "disorder". Anyhow the law as written should not stand, it's too widely written and blatant social engineering. It's a direct attack on the concept that your gender is part of your DNA. Personally I don't care if people want to dress up or act out a comfortable fantasy, more power to them. If they want to have permanent cosmetic modification to make that fantasy feel more realistic then go for it. Just don't expect me to buy into that fantasy. A man calling himself a women, or a women calling herself a man is no different then me calling myself Black or Asian.
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