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(CA) K-12 Transgender Law Repeal
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 13:50:55
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Given the low percentage of transexuals, I doubt many will be "inconvenienced" by this. Unless by inconvenienced you mean the feeling that comes over a person when they run out of milk in the morning after portioning out cereal. I always put extra milk in there and add some more cereal at the end to help combat the soggy factor...
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Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 13:57:11
Oh you... Life will never be void of all forms of discomfort... Hey I'm all for making bathroom life more comfortable... I say you get your group together to discuss your mental distress about the issue and run with it... I look at taking steps to allow people to feel more comfortable in who they are instead of isolating them is a positive step forward and in the case of which bathroom should you use I don't see it as a hugh inconvenience to anyone... Can you accept the notion that others might be inconvenienced by it? Don't you have any sympathy for them? What makes them less worthy of your sympathy? Because you don't agree with them? I'm sure others do think this would bring them some sort of discomfort... I don't really think that they would be inconvenienced by it though, no...
Would it bother you more if someone, born a woman, who looked like a guy walked in and went in to the stall did his business and left (after washing his hands of course) or someone, born a man, who looks like a woman pulls up to the side of you in the urinal and starts taking a piss next to ya? Which would stand out more?
It has nothing to do with which group of people I have more or less sympathy for... This just seems like a step in the right direction to me... still much to discuss... I must admit I am fairly behind the times on anything like this so I'm probably not the best person to be advocating for anything.. just my two cents in the end...
You're splitting hairs on discomfort and inconvenience, they're almost interchangeable in this case.
It wouldn't really bother me at all. But I just recognize that it might bother others. Their voice isn't disqualified simply because they disagree.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 14:05:42
Not splitting hairs at all...
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-13 14:17:10
Nausi is right. If it DIDN'T bother people you wouldn't see students and parents protesting this. The Los Angeles Unified School District protest included students.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-11-13 14:22:30
I can't say I'm in favour of the sport thing either. Sport categories are made for bodies, not minds..or so I think, as I said earlier none of all these circumstances mentioned would bother me personally.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-11-13 14:28:48
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »Nausi is right. If it DIDN'T bother people you wouldn't see students and parents protesting this. The Los Angeles Unified School District protest included students. People are bothered by everything. When it comes to protests, it's really easy to fool the credulous.
When I was a freshman, I spontaneously came up with the idea of circulating a petition against dihydrogen monoxide. I know this particular prank is common as muck and most people have probably heard of it by now, but I'd never heard of it. I got way too many signatures and I was attending a private university and in the scholarship dorms. I didn't even have a verbal pitch, I just relied on a bit of nonsense I wrote. If I can get credulous but intelligent college-aged people to believe that water needs to be banned from industrial processes and public schools, it really isn't a stretch to get someone to believe/protest about anything.
We don't like to think about it, but IQ is theoretically a variable where the median (or is it mean? I'm too lazy to check) is 100. That means that while most people fall right near 100 on the bell curve, there's a lot of the population below it. That makes for a lot of people who'll believe any old tripe you feed them.
Happily we don't live in a country where the majority rules, in spite of our fallacious claims to be a democracy.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 14:34:05
I can't say I'm in favour of the sport thing either. Sport categories are made for bodies, not minds..or so I think, as I said earlier none of all these circumstances mentioned would bother me personally. Sports are body and mind...
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 14:44:19
Asura.Squishytaru said: »It is mean you were correct in your hunch. Median is the middle. I can't say I'm in favour of the sport thing either. Sport categories are made for bodies, not minds..or so I think, as I said earlier none of all these circumstances mentioned would bother me personally. Sports are body and mind... Shhh, women belong in the kitchen. Not on the battlefield, ship, sports field, police force, fire crew, etc. Anyone flash back to the little giants?
Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2013-11-13 14:47:02
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »Nausi is right. If it DIDN'T bother people you wouldn't see students and parents protesting this. The Los Angeles Unified School District protest included students. People are bothered by everything. When it comes to protests, it's really easy to fool the credulous.
When I was a freshman, I spontaneously came up with the idea of circulating a petition against dihydrogen monoxide. I know this particular prank is common as muck and most people have probably heard of it by now, but I'd never heard of it. I got way too many signatures and I was attending a private university and in the scholarship dorms. I didn't even have a verbal pitch, I just relied on a bit of nonsense I wrote. If I can get credulous but intelligent college-aged people to believe that water needs to be banned from industrial processes and public schools, it really isn't a stretch to get someone to believe/protest about anything.
We don't like to think about it, but IQ is theoretically a variable where the median (or is it mean? I'm too lazy to check) is 100. That means that while most people fall right near 100 on the bell curve, there's a lot of the population below it. That makes for a lot of people who'll believe any old tripe you feed them.
Happily we don't live in a country where the majority rules, in spite of our fallacious claims to be a democracy.
I agree. I've noticed a number of different protests appearing in the New Zealand media in recent years, and there seem to be a lot of the same faces appearing at each one.
For a lot of people, I think they're protesting just for the sake of protesting - to feel like they're doing something meaningful, fighting for something they think is worth fighting for. The sad thing is, they often don't understand what they're actually protesting against - they're just mindlessly following the rest of the mob.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-11-13 14:47:03
Asura.Squishytaru said: »I remember playing football as a kid and there was a girl on the team. She was one of the best players on the team.
However, when you reach around the high school they just stop allowing girls in. The guys were "uncomfortable wresting women" who were actually better than them. So there were stories of either them being barred from the team or refusing to wrestle.
Same for football, and it is just silly. Well you should expect people to feel uneasy with the opposite sex in a sport where physical contact is involved. Tennis or baseball are one thing, but rugby/football and soccer things get awkward.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 14:48:37
Asura.Squishytaru said: »I have no hatred of transgender people, and no particular love of them either. I simply see nothing wrong with holding them to the same standard as everyone else, and I don't care if doing so could possibly hurt their feelings. Feelings are hurt everyday.
This is about allowing the transgendered to fit into the gender roles that they are more comfortable with. The problem is people are uncomfortable with transgenders and what they are because they are different. It is perfectly fine for you and I to have grown up and undergone schooling the way we did, but what about consideration to those who are different from us? That is all this is.
But it's not just about that squishy. You want other people who are not transgendered to alter their perceptions of those who are. By that very logic you are coercing people into a particular behavior by LAW. Some might not be readily willing to do that. What about them?
Asura.Squishytaru said: »So I am sorry if simple changes in the laws for simple things is so out of line. I am sorry if allowing *** to choose their bathroom or gender of sports team is in inconvenience to you. Of course I really am not because I am blown away that this is a big deal.
And thus your true intolerant nature is expressed through contempt and sarcasm. You have an opinion, others don't share it, and you're "blown away" and "sorry". This is an attempt to de-legitimize someone's opinion through ridicule.
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Changing the law benefits some and antagonized others, I think we can all agree on that.
The law benefits some and antagonizes others, but does not take benefits away from others. That is the whole point.
It is like saying allowing gay marriage which is allowing two people to harmlessly choose to live their lives despite what others say. Adding that to law is benefiting people who want freedom and antagonizing bigots who think only the majority should have it their way.
It only antagonizes people because they have a problem with lifting a finger for anyone but themselves. Allowing people different from themselves to actually be different.
You have no right to force others to accept anyone.
Asura.Squishytaru said: »'If this makes you uncomfortable, then you're a bigot and deserve to feel bad' is a great summary of the dialogue. That's called "blaming the victim", try again...
Yes one is a bigot for trying to keep the transgendered from actually being transgendered. I know this is a tough thing for you to understand. Acceptance of the transgendered by others is not a pre-requisite for actually being transgendered.
No one prohibits gays from being gays simply because they think homosexuality is a sin. (Thought police / welcome to 1984)
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 14:50:21
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Asura.Squishytaru said: »It is mean you were correct in your hunch. Median is the middle. I can't say I'm in favour of the sport thing either. Sport categories are made for bodies, not minds..or so I think, as I said earlier none of all these circumstances mentioned would bother me personally. Sports are body and mind... Shhh, women belong in the kitchen. Not on the battlefield, ship, sports field, police force, fire crew, etc. Anyone flash back to the little giants? Nah, just Sandlot. But hey if society is more comfortable with a straight world for straight people then how dare we many laws for those who can't stand against the majority. for the No Girls Allowed? lol...
Also, made me flashback to the lady bugs...
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-13 14:50:38
People are bothered by everything. When it comes to protests, it's really easy to fool the credulous. This is a completely different type of "bothered" is what people are failing to recognize. There is a visual component here, and people are completely insensitive to how that visual component may psychologically affect children.
These comparisons to homophobia are ***, it isn't the same thing. People don't need to digest this visual component day-to-day, let alone in the privacy of the restroom stall or locker-room when it comes to tolerance of homosexuality.
If gay/lesbian civil rights has taught this country is that this all or nothing mentality doesn't work. That same methodology need be applied to such transgender laws. There needs to be some level of sympathy from both parties. Transgender and trans-supporters need to stop victimizing themself to the same degree as the homosexual community and understand guess what, edit: "you[transgenders] are forcing your lifestyle upon other individuals." You are forcing other individuals to take part in the mental condition known as gender dysphoria.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-11-13 14:51:12
How can you miss the point so hard? Wrestling, marking, those are things that involve touching each other, you don't see how someone might feel uncomfortable with the opposite gender?
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Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 14:54:22
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »If gay/lesbian civil rights has taught this country is that this all or nothing mentality doesn't work. That same methodology need be applied to such transgender laws. There needs to be some level of sympathy from both parties. Transgender and trans-supporters need to stop victimizing themself to the same degree as the homosexual community and understand guess what, "you are forcing your lifestyle upon other individuals." You are forcing other individuals to take part in the mental condition known as gender dysphoria.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 14:57:21
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Asura.Squishytaru said: »It is mean you were correct in your hunch. Median is the middle. I can't say I'm in favour of the sport thing either. Sport categories are made for bodies, not minds..or so I think, as I said earlier none of all these circumstances mentioned would bother me personally. Sports are body and mind... Shhh, women belong in the kitchen. Not on the battlefield, ship, sports field, police force, fire crew, etc. Anyone flash back to the little giants? Nah, just Sandlot. But hey if society is more comfortable with a straight world for straight people then how dare we many laws for those who can't stand against the majority. for the No Girls Allowed? lol...
Also, made me flashback to the lady bugs...
I used to crush on girl Jonathan Brandis so hard, where do I fit in now?
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-13 15:01:25
How can you miss the point so hard? Wrestling, marking, those are things that involve touching each other, you don't see how someone might feel uncomfortable with the opposite gender?
I think some might feel uncomfortable with the same gender!
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-11-13 15:03:29
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Asura.Squishytaru said: »Just an FYI, *** is taken as derogatory within the community.
It is not unanimous. There are terms that are - transgender or trans male/female/person.
I am sure African-American is pretty unanimous too, but I have never heard anyone black calling anyone else black that. Upon asking it is generally just something similar to 'dude, I'm black'.
Point is that it is about what the person says more so than if a label can be taken as derogatory. You can tell who likes the transgendered and who doesn't, and the more common using the word short sometimes for transmissions is. The more innocuous it becomes. Neither of those terms, black or African-American, is considered derogatory. You skipped over the more apt comparison.
Anyway, littering your posts with derogatory terms sends a mixed message. People's sensitivity levels will vary, sure, but I get a distinct impression from my admittedly limited interactions with trans individuals, especially here, that the term is not ok nor is it gaining any support. Hell, trans is even a shorter word if you're going for shortness.
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-11-13 15:05:43
Asura.Squishytaru said: »How can you miss the point so hard? Wrestling, marking, those are things that involve touching each other, you don't see how someone might feel uncomfortable with the opposite gender?
I understood the point. The fact is that because it is a male dominated sport women are forced out so men can feel more comfortable. Majority forcing down a minority. Works in a girls team too, they might feel uncomfortable with the opposite gender making contact with them.
Even if you are trapped in a body that isn't yours, you are still in it...
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Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 15:08:51
Asura.Squishytaru said: »How can you miss the point so hard? Wrestling, marking, those are things that involve touching each other, you don't see how someone might feel uncomfortable with the opposite gender?
I understood the point. The fact is that because it is a male dominated sport women are forced out so men can feel more comfortable. Majority forcing down a minority. Works in a girls team too, they might feel uncomfortable with the opposite gender making contact with them.
Even if you are trapped in a body that isn't yours, you are still in it...
Don't use "reality" as a strategy, it's quite ineffective.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-11-13 15:08:57
Asura.Squishytaru said: »None of the guys are uncomfortable with touching other guys intimately though. I'll take you to Ash's posts. If a heterosexual guy wrestles with other guys his only thought is beating the hell out of them. If he does it with a girl he will naturally connect it to sexuality(I don't mean it necessarily in a perverted way, just in general waryness of where to touch and stuff) - you cannot deny this causes problems to varying levels depending on the individuals involved.
Calif. Transgender Law Repeal Will Qualify
Quote: SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Opponents of a new California law that gives transgender students certain rights said Sunday that they had collected enough signatures for an initiative that would repeal the law.
A coalition of conservative groups called Privacy for all Students submitted 620,000 signatures to get the initiative on the November 2014 ballot, said Frank Schubert, the political strategist handling the signature gathering effort.
To qualify, at least 505,000 valid signatures must be submitted. To verify the signatures, each of California’s 58 counties will first check that the overall count is correct, then conduct a random sampling to make sure they are legitimate. After that, it is likely the state would order a full review.
If, after all of the reviews, the group has the requisite number of valid signatures, the initiative would qualify for the ballot.
“Many people said we had no chance to collect over half a million signatures in just 90 days, but we have proven them wrong by gathering over 115,000 more signatures than the minimum needed,” Gina Gleason of the group Faith and Public Policy, said in a statement.
California is the first state to pass a law detailing the rights of transgender K-12 students.
One of the provisions gives transgender students the choice of playing on either boys or girls sports teams. It also allows them to choose which restroom that want to use.
Gov. Jerry Brown signed the law, AB1266, in September. It goes into effect Jan. 1.
The goal of the law is to reduce discrimination against transgender students.
John O’Connor, executive director of Equality California, the organization that co-sponsored the transgender student law, said he was alarmed by the initiative effort.
“Protecting this law is our number one priority, and we will put everything we’ve got into it,” O’Connor said, adding that he believes public opinion is opposed to discrimination against LGBT people.
The effort to repeal the law got a boost last month when the National Organization for Marriage, which organized the 2008 ballot initiative that outlawed gay marriage in California, joined the effort.
Schubert, who helped organize the signature push, previously led successful campaigns to block same-sex marriage in Maine and North Carolina.
Supporters of the repeal effort argue the law violates the privacy of non-transgender students.
They said 400,000 of the signatures gathered were done by volunteers, as opposed to 220,000 collected by paid staff.
“It shows the degree of opposition that exists to opening the most vulnerable areas of public schools to the opposite sex,” Karen England of Capitol Resources Institute, a coalition member, said in a statement.
This whole story reminds me of the scene from Gun Hill Road, and the transgender student takes the key to the girls restroom everytime and the teacher lectures her parents about it.
I'm perfectly fine with this so long as they are formally diagnosed transgenders(regarding the restroom issue). I'm wondering if K-12 institutions can request that information from their physician or if it falls under patient confidentiality? If anyone could shed light on that- much appreciated :)
I think it's awesome about the sports teams, I think they should apply it to non-trans students too. I knew several girls who wanted to play on the wrestling team in HS and they had the size to back it up.
Quite sad that Veterans Day in California has turned into a rally against transgenders.
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