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(CA) K-12 Transgender Law Repeal
By Fumiku 2013-11-13 12:17:06
On the shower thing, I have to actually claim ignorance. I skipped physical education in high school by using my extracurricular dance classes instead. I did have a discussion with some friends on the topic of high school showers a couple weeks ago and they all basically said that they did anything they possibly could to avoid using them. That might be the bias of who I am friends with, but outside of pornography, I really have never heard of teenagers willingly going into a public shower room.
That said, the showers that no one used in my lower school had stalls and curtains. I really don't know what other schools do or don't have.
Every transgendered person I've met has been heterosexual, though. If a bunch of high school girls can get over being naked with each other, being naked with one more person who happens to have a useless flaccid penis is probably not going to change things. If you want to claim to be a girl just to pop wood in some hypothetical shower room, I'd love to introduce you to the internet.
Basically, I repeat: the situation doesn't happen. You're fishing for a 1-in-billions chance to refute a law that causes no harm.
Why make a law for a one in a billion situation. Seems like a waste of time and resources...
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-11-13 12:22:31
Read the bill. It covers situations that come up all the time. The "time and resources" argument is tissue-paper-thin. The time and resources spent to tack an extra clarification onto a bill that primarily prevents sex discrimination are worthwhile expenditures.
By Fumiku 2013-11-13 12:23:32
Read the bill. It covers situations that come up all the time. The "time and resources" argument is tissue-paper-thin. The time and resources spent to tack an extra clarification onto a bill that primarily prevents sex discrimination are worthwhile expenditures.
Which is it one in a billion or all the time?
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-11-13 12:23:52
Just an FYI, *** is taken as derogatory within the community.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2013-11-13 12:24:18
jesus you candy *** had it easy.
in middle school / high school we had communal showers, and they really weren't a problem for me as much as the creepy *** middle school gym teacher, who would plop down on a staircase that had a view of everything, with a banana & the newspaper & watch us all do our business. messed up.
nobody really *** with one another, except some of us football players labeled another one fro-butt joe. but that's pretty mild, really.
edit:
*opps went to work there for a bit, then hit post, not very topical of a post anymore*
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-11-13 12:24:19
Why make a law for a one in a billion situation. Seems like a waste of time and resources... Well, regardless of the side you're on in this matter, even though it involves a minority it has to be addressed, can't just ignore cause they're few, even if it's just replying with a no.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-11-13 12:25:05
Just an FYI, *** is taken as derogatory within the community. This I didn't know, thought it was just a short way of saying it.
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 12:30:21
I kinda look at it like... I don't walk up to someone and call them a hetero or a homo why would I call em a ***? Your name is Steve damnit! That or douchenozzle... it depends on how close we are...
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-11-13 12:32:32
Read the bill. It covers situations that come up all the time. The "time and resources" argument is tissue-paper-thin. The time and resources spent to tack an extra clarification onto a bill that primarily prevents sex discrimination are worthwhile expenditures.
Which is it one in a billion or all the time? Are you really this much of a dolt? The one-in-a-billion situation I was indicating was the hypothetical nonsense that Ashman was trying to use as a refutation. The law itself covers daily situations. Seriously, learn how to read.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-11-13 12:34:21
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Just an FYI, *** is taken as derogatory within the community.
It is not unanimous. There are terms that are - transgender or trans male/female/person.
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2013-11-13 12:34:23
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »If i walked into the women's showers and said "it's cool, I have a doctor's note", it would be completely asinine of the women to get mad or be uncomfortable, right?
EDIT: ndb - no big deal
Again, college campuses already have this situation happening daily. If you're so afraid of the opposite sex, shower when no one is around. Stalls and private areas with clearance are all you need to maintain the comfort of most people.
Towel -> Stall -> Open door -> Close door -> Disrobe -> Get to business.
All this talk of rape and people staring at someones junk/chest speaks more about American prudeness than the reality of what would happen in nearly all situations. If you want to stare at some old grandmas on the toilet or feel some womans going to emasculate you by seeing you at a urinal then take appropriate evasive action. Even in a typical mens bathroom some guys go straight for the stalls instead of using a urinal for whatever reason.
I think it speaks more to the American sickness. I volunteered for a "teens club" for almost 10 years. The state required that we take annual classes on "how not to get us sued" that they pretended were more about protecting the children. We had to go through every bit of training a teacher at a school does. When you have any chance for mixed sexes, (especially in the puberty years), you HAVE to have AT LEAST two adults present at all times because you need a chaperone AND someone to corroborate the story of the other adult. I was not allowed to be alone at any time with a child OR ANOTHER ADULT OF THE OPPOSITE SEX. I was never allowed to close the door to a room regardless of the number of adults/children etc. If i was in the room and not alone, the door had to be open.
I'm not even going to get into the statistics (that I can't remember accurately this far later), or the videos they made us watch, of children falsely accusing an adult/each other, but that happens to. It happens exponentially more often than someone having gender disassociation disorder.
Anyhow, not using those as an arguement in favor of this policy not going into effect. I'm just saying that "prudeness" is less of a concern to me than Americans being dishonest/entitled/sue-happy/horrible, etc.
Also,
wiki.prude said: In historical contrast, the word prude was originally a noble compliment. Traditionally, it was usually associated with wisdom, integrity, usefulness, and profit. Even in present day language, it forms the root of the word prudence, meaning "sound judgement in practical affairs".
I had a gigle m8
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-11-13 12:44:04
I kinda look at it like... I don't walk up to someone and call them a hetero or a homo why would I call em a ***? Your name is Steve damnit! That or douchenozzle... it depends on how close we are...
My cousin, who is gay, uses the derogatory term for gay gents tongue-in-cheekly, and quite frequently when there is a bottle in the situation. He's a character though!
One of my friends, who wasn't aware that he was homosexual chastised him for using the word because, at the time, she had an uncle who had just "come out". She was the only one not in on the joke, so the rest of us were trying to muffle our chuckles during a round of darts while she exhausted herself with that argument with someone who was gay himself.
That night somewhat reminds me of this...
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Caitsith.Zahrah
Server: Caitsith
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-11-13 12:54:10
Asura.Squishytaru said: »One of my friends, who wasn't aware that he was homosexual chastised him for using the word because, at the time, she had an uncle who had just "come out". She was the only one not in on the joke, so the rest of us were trying to muffle our chuckles during a round of darts while she exhausted herself with that argument with someone who was gay himself.
That night somewhat reminds me of this...
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Well even AnnfuckingFrank could have seen that it was not worth starting an argument over.
When I said "He's a character!", I didn't mean that he behaves in a noticeably or stereotypically, flamboyantly gay manner. So, no. She couldn't tell.
I've hit on gay guys before. Sometimes you can't tell.
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-11-13 13:05:43
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Asura.Squishytaru said: »One of my friends, who wasn't aware that he was homosexual chastised him for using the word because, at the time, she had an uncle who had just "come out". She was the only one not in on the joke, so the rest of us were trying to muffle our chuckles during a round of darts while she exhausted herself with that argument with someone who was gay himself.
That night somewhat reminds me of this...
YouTube Video Placeholder
Well even AnnfuckingFrank could have seen that it was not worth starting an argument over.
When I said "He's a character!", I didn't mean that he behaves in a noticeably or stereotypically, flamboyantly gay manner. So, no. She couldn't tell.
I've hit on gay guys before. Sometimes you can't tell.
Why do you have to do all the work?
There's work involved?
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 13:06:52
Look at these boards! Half the guys are afraid to even approach girls!
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 13:07:57
Sanitary cheese dispensaries make having diarrhea a more comfortable experience? As good as an idea that may be I don't think it will pass sanitation codes...
I guess using shorthand there was a bad idea as you took it to mean that the toilet seats should be made of satin pillows and after your done it will wipe your *** for you...
The point was made that a transgender child is going to be uncomfortable wherever he or she goes to the bathroom... The solution was to continue to let them be uncomfortable as it is their problem I guess... I was simply commenting that the legislation looking to get passed is just trying to make it so they don't have to feel uncomfortable performing such a simple every day task... but appearantly people would rather demonize them and make it out to be like they are there to eye rape you while you're using the facilities...
Is life suppose to be void of "uncomfortable-ness"? Is it really that uncomfortable to recognize you have a set of genitalia when you wish you didn't?
I am uncomfortable pooping when others are in the bathroom with me. Seriously, I would be much more comfortable if no one could even know I was in there doing my business. It would make me much more comfortable if all stalls were sealed, privately vented and soundproofed. I can't be alone, there must be other like me. Can we make laws to facilitate my and other's like me's comfort in the bathroom too? Why not? Where's my sympathy, where's my law?
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-13 13:22:51
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Just an FYI, *** is taken as derogatory within the community.
It is not unanimous.
You are correct, however here on FFXIAH you'll get your head ripped off. Tra##y is a pretty common term in LA, but to save yourself a migraine just don't say it on here.
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 13:23:17
Oh you... Life will never be void of all forms of discomfort...
Hey I'm all for making bathroom life more comfortable... I say you get your group together to discuss your mental distress about the issue and run with it...
I look at taking steps to allow people to feel more comfortable in who they are instead of isolating them is a positive step forward and in the case of which bathroom should you use I don't see it as a hugh inconvenience to anyone...
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Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 13:30:52
Asura.Squishytaru said: »Phoenix.Amandarius said: »The transgender child is going to be uncomfortable no matter which restroom or locker room they go to. There is no avoiding it. It's not going to be awkward for the transgender boy that believes he is a girl when he is in the locker room, see breasts all around and looks down at their own penis? That won't make them feel awkward or even worse? The solution to make everyone feel uncomfortable makes zero sense. It is completely selfish behavior. I think the point is to get it to where they are comfortable as well as everyone else... Going to the bathroom should not make someone uncomfortable... I mean when I walk into the bathroom I do my business and get out of there and there's no second thought about it... why should it be any different for anyone else? It's not about making everyone uncomfortable... its about finding a way to make everyone comfy...
I mean I sympathize with the whole mentality that people can only view things one way and kinda place a bit of fear or confusion on a topic that many of us don't really understand... but really... Once you place yourself in the situation you probably wouldn't ever even know let alone care...
Is there any law we can write that will make everyone have a "comfy" bathroom experience? Do you have any clue how ridiculous you sound trying to "smooth out" the results of an individual's visit to the bathroom? What about when it's uncomfortable for me because I have diarrhea? Are you mandate sanitary cheese dispensaries at each bathroom too?
Why don't you just come out and say it?
Say "I have a problem with this because I have a problem with changing the way simple things work for transgendered. All because I do not care about or possibly dislike transgendered people."?
How can I put words in your mouth you ask? Where do I get the cause? You are seriously comparing wanting to be comfortable while having diarrhea to someone with transgender being able to pick whichever bathroom makes them more comfortable? Really? What is wrong with you?
Can't let the *** pick which bathroom or suddenly we will start mandating all these things! Can't let blacks sit anywhere they want on the bus because then we will start mandating all these things!
That is a fair comparison to your seemingly prevalent slippery slopes. Not diarrhea to bathroom comfort of ***.
Squishy, I have very little problems with others. I truly wish all of us could just get along and be capable of setting aside and/or resolving conflicts with the sensible and amicable adage of "lets just agree to disagree". But let's be honest, you can't agree to disagree, you outright refuse to tolerate any opinion aside from your own and seek to enforce your opinions onto others via law. I have no hatred of transgender people, and no particular love of them either. I simply see nothing wrong with holding them to the same standard as everyone else, and I don't care if doing so could possibly hurt their feelings. Feelings are hurt everyday.
Changing the law benefits some and antagonized others, I think we can all agree on that. To some it makes them uncomfortable when people of the opposite sex are in their bathrooms, we can all agree on that too?. Where your (and many many other's) intolerance comes in is when you attempt to de-legitimize the people who are negatively affected by this law.
'If this makes you uncomfortable, then you're a bigot and deserve to feel bad' is a great summary of the dialogue. That's called "blaming the victim", try again...
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2013-11-13 13:32:06
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »Asura.Squishytaru said: »Just an FYI, *** is taken as derogatory within the community.
It is not unanimous.
You are correct, however here on FFXIAH you'll get your head ripped off. Tra##y is a pretty common term in LA, but to save yourself a migraine just don't say it on here.
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Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-11-13 13:33:42
Oh you... Life will never be void of all forms of discomfort...
Hey I'm all for making bathroom life more comfortable... I say you get your group together to discuss your mental distress about the issue and run with it...
I look at taking steps to allow people to feel more comfortable in who they are instead of isolating them is a positive step forward and in the case of which bathroom should you use I don't see it as a hugh inconvenience to anyone...
Can you accept the notion that others might be inconvenienced by it?
Don't you have any sympathy for them? What makes them less worthy of your sympathy? Because you don't agree with them?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-11-13 13:38:48
Given the low percentage of transexuals, I doubt many will be "inconvenienced" by this.
Unless by inconvenienced you mean the feeling that comes over a person when they run out of milk in the morning after portioning out cereal.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2013-11-13 13:48:04
Oh you... Life will never be void of all forms of discomfort... Hey I'm all for making bathroom life more comfortable... I say you get your group together to discuss your mental distress about the issue and run with it... I look at taking steps to allow people to feel more comfortable in who they are instead of isolating them is a positive step forward and in the case of which bathroom should you use I don't see it as a hugh inconvenience to anyone... Can you accept the notion that others might be inconvenienced by it? Don't you have any sympathy for them? What makes them less worthy of your sympathy? Because you don't agree with them? I'm sure others do think this would bring them some sort of discomfort... I don't really think that they would be inconvenienced by it though, no...
Would it bother you more if someone, born a woman, who looked like a guy walked in and went in to the stall did his business and left (after washing his hands of course) or someone, born a man, who looks like a woman pulls up to the side of you in the urinal and starts taking a piss next to ya? Which would stand out more?
It has nothing to do with which group of people I have more or less sympathy for... This just seems like a step in the right direction to me... still much to discuss... I must admit I am fairly behind the times on anything like this so I'm probably not the best person to be advocating for anything.. just my two cents in the end...
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-11-13 13:48:10
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Given the low percentage of transexuals, I doubt many will be "inconvenienced" by this.
Not only that, but that low percentage of youth transsexuals often run away from home and end up in a LGBT youth shelter. Those shelters aren't exactly on every corner of the US like Starbucks, so they'll travel some distance to get to one.
Calif. Transgender Law Repeal Will Qualify
Quote: SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Opponents of a new California law that gives transgender students certain rights said Sunday that they had collected enough signatures for an initiative that would repeal the law.
A coalition of conservative groups called Privacy for all Students submitted 620,000 signatures to get the initiative on the November 2014 ballot, said Frank Schubert, the political strategist handling the signature gathering effort.
To qualify, at least 505,000 valid signatures must be submitted. To verify the signatures, each of California’s 58 counties will first check that the overall count is correct, then conduct a random sampling to make sure they are legitimate. After that, it is likely the state would order a full review.
If, after all of the reviews, the group has the requisite number of valid signatures, the initiative would qualify for the ballot.
“Many people said we had no chance to collect over half a million signatures in just 90 days, but we have proven them wrong by gathering over 115,000 more signatures than the minimum needed,” Gina Gleason of the group Faith and Public Policy, said in a statement.
California is the first state to pass a law detailing the rights of transgender K-12 students.
One of the provisions gives transgender students the choice of playing on either boys or girls sports teams. It also allows them to choose which restroom that want to use.
Gov. Jerry Brown signed the law, AB1266, in September. It goes into effect Jan. 1.
The goal of the law is to reduce discrimination against transgender students.
John O’Connor, executive director of Equality California, the organization that co-sponsored the transgender student law, said he was alarmed by the initiative effort.
“Protecting this law is our number one priority, and we will put everything we’ve got into it,” O’Connor said, adding that he believes public opinion is opposed to discrimination against LGBT people.
The effort to repeal the law got a boost last month when the National Organization for Marriage, which organized the 2008 ballot initiative that outlawed gay marriage in California, joined the effort.
Schubert, who helped organize the signature push, previously led successful campaigns to block same-sex marriage in Maine and North Carolina.
Supporters of the repeal effort argue the law violates the privacy of non-transgender students.
They said 400,000 of the signatures gathered were done by volunteers, as opposed to 220,000 collected by paid staff.
“It shows the degree of opposition that exists to opening the most vulnerable areas of public schools to the opposite sex,” Karen England of Capitol Resources Institute, a coalition member, said in a statement.
This whole story reminds me of the scene from Gun Hill Road, and the transgender student takes the key to the girls restroom everytime and the teacher lectures her parents about it.
I'm perfectly fine with this so long as they are formally diagnosed transgenders(regarding the restroom issue). I'm wondering if K-12 institutions can request that information from their physician or if it falls under patient confidentiality? If anyone could shed light on that- much appreciated :)
I think it's awesome about the sports teams, I think they should apply it to non-trans students too. I knew several girls who wanted to play on the wrestling team in HS and they had the size to back it up.
Quite sad that Veterans Day in California has turned into a rally against transgenders.
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