The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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By Nariont 2022-06-24 12:28:55
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can swap to goading belt and only lose 1 STP
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-06-24 12:50:33
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SimonSes said: »
then you can break +200 sTP, which means every +TA% from Tatenashi is wasted (because GKT will give you +100%TA anyway)

Are you sure about this? I thought native MA procs occur before the unique GKT procs? The GKT TA is not actual "Triple Attack", it's a non-STP triple hit. I was under the impression that you could still Double or Triple Attack normally from gear, but then you can also get a "double" or "triple" attack proc from the GKT, based on STP. does 100/200 STP completely block normal DA/TA from procing?

The point you made about wasting a trait is true of Tatenashi's Zanshin, though. so ryuo feet are useless outside of the stp, which malignance is better.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-06-24 12:59:13
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Asura.Bippin said: »
That set is not capped haste FYI

Neither was mine but after looking at it some more, the better set is just 4/5 malignance, ryuo+1 head. With crepuscular earring and double chirich+1 using kentarch+1 (max unity), you cap haste, get good ranged accuracy for daken, and end up at +126 STP from gear and trait. Also no wasted TA from Sam Roll if Simon's comment is true.
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By SimonSes 2022-06-24 13:16:05
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Are you sure about this? I thought native MA procs occur before the unique GKT procs? The GKT TA is not actual "Triple Attack", it's a non-STP triple hit. I was under the impression that you could still Double or Triple Attack normally from gear, but then you can also get a "double" or "triple" attack proc from the GKT, based on STP. does 100/200 STP completely block normal DA/TA from procing?

Even assuming you can proc normal TA before TA from GKT, its wasted anyway, since you have 100%TA with that GKT at 200sTP. So if you doesn't proc TA from gear you always proc at least TA from GKT. Assuming that's true, above 200sTP you would also block possible QA from GKT with TA from gear, which is not only wasting it, but even crippling GKT with it.

Asura.Bippin said: »
That set is not capped haste FYI

Yeah sorry, I overlook that. Like Nariont said, it's easy to fix with Goading and only lose 1sTP or switch to Malignance leg and lose 2sTP but get even more defensive value and racc.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-06-24 13:31:05
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SimonSes said: »
Even assuming you can proc normal TA before TA from GKT, its wasted anyway, since you have 100%TA with that GKT at 200sTP. So if you doesn't proc TA from gear you always proc at least TA from GKT. Assuming that's true, above 200sTP you would also block possible QA from GKT with TA from gear, which is not only wasting it, but even crippling GKT with it.

Not really. You get 127TP/swing from a GKT-proc-MA. I also believe you get a fixed Daken TP as well. A normal MA gives you standard TP with your STP added in, including for the Daken proc on that round. So a native TA proc (with or without Daken) is always going to be higher returned TP than a GKT TA (with or without Daken). It's not wasted, as you say, it's better in a sense. The only reason you say it's "Wasted" is because the native TA is adding nothing until it procs, while the GKT TA is always active assuming 200 STP. But that's more supplemental TA than "wasted" TA IMO.

This all assumes you can do MA proc before GKT proc when at 100/200 stp. I assumed you could, based on a comment Jakey made previously about priority of MA with this GKT.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2022-06-24 13:36:36
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The Hachi MA is not normal QA/TA/DA and it procs after and can be blocked by normal QA/TA/DA, the store tp is only lost when the Hachi MA goes off but it is lost for entire round so it effects daken as well.

I know the first thing most people think of is just stacking store tp the idea of getting 1 ta or 1 qa per stp sounds great with Hachi and that definitely helps white damage but as I'm usually only using it for it's ws's I've been playing around with a very different take on it focused instead on tp gain.

There is an interesting effect below 100 store tp with Hachi, ignoring daken and other MA for a second at 50 store tp where you would normally have aprox 1.5 times your base tp gain with a normal weapon with Hachi you actually have aprox 1.75 times the base tp gain because 50% of the time you have a double attack with 0 store tp and 50% of the time you have a single attack with 50 store tp, so .5*(2*1)+.5*(1*1.5)=1.75 of course theres some flooring for exact tp amounts with the weapon and other effects to consider but trying to keep things simple here. This means that the first 50 store tp ends up being more valuable than normal but 50-100 store tp is less valuable than normal. So I use a high MA build aiming for 50 store tp.

While this effect is interesting and is what I base my builds around, if you are receiving sam roll it is important to note that while you may be gaining less tp on average per point of store tp than normal each point is still a positive increase in tp gain and a positive increase in white damage so there are limits to how much I would cut

This is what I've been playing with
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By SimonSes 2022-06-24 15:38:37
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
SimonSes said: »
Even assuming you can proc normal TA before TA from GKT, its wasted anyway, since you have 100%TA with that GKT at 200sTP. So if you doesn't proc TA from gear you always proc at least TA from GKT. Assuming that's true, above 200sTP you would also block possible QA from GKT with TA from gear, which is not only wasting it, but even crippling GKT with it.

Not really. You get 127TP/swing from a GKT-proc-MA. I also believe you get a fixed Daken TP as well. A normal MA gives you standard TP with your STP added in, including for the Daken proc on that round. So a native TA proc (with or without Daken) is always going to be higher returned TP than a GKT TA (with or without Daken). It's not wasted, as you say, it's better in a sense. The only reason you say it's "Wasted" is because the native TA is adding nothing until it procs, while the GKT TA is always active assuming 200 STP. But that's more supplemental TA than "wasted" TA IMO.

This all assumes you can do MA proc before GKT proc when at 100/200 stp. I assumed you could, based on a comment Jakey made previously about priority of MA with this GKT.

Thx for explaining, I was going with bg wiki description, which I guess should be changed. If it works like you say, then its not DA,TA,QA etc. but simply occasionally attack 2/3/4 times and store TP only doesn't work for those attacks and works not only for single attacks, but also MA proc, that can happen before this special OAx.
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By Izanami 2022-06-24 16:53:16
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I'm not familiar with Hachimonji's effect either. The BG Wiki description does imply that Hachimonji simply adds to your existing multi-attack rates. From Jakey's description it sounds more like Hachimonjis is a special "occasionally attacks X times":

Quad > Triple > Double > Hachimonji_Quad > Hachimonji_Triple > Hachimonji_Double > Normal_Single

with normal attacks getting full Store TP bonus and Hachimonji attacks getting 0 Store TP.

I tried to visualize the effect of Hachimonji on average TP gain per attack round versus total Store TP in Python by running through 10000 TP rounds per STP value. Assuming no extra multi-attack in your TP set (and ignoring Daken):


The black points represent TP gain with Hachimonji, while the red line shows what is expected with a Hachimonji-like weapon (127 base TP per swing), but without Hachimonji procs. The bottom plot simply shows the difference between the two. We can clearly see the feature Jakey was mentioning that peaks around 50 STP. Store TP is still worth "more than normal" until reaching 100, but the Hachimonji bonus is worth its highest at 50 STP. After 100 STP the Hachimonji procs do not affect TP gain in any noticeable way.

However, if we start adding multi-attack to our other gear slots, the effect of Hachimonji is diminished:
This figure shows three different models for external Double Attack and Triple Attack. The blue data is with no extra multi-attack (the same as the first figure. The orange data assumes no extra multi-attack from gear, but +12% Double Attack from Warrior subjob. The green data is using the multi-attack present in the set Jakey posted: DA=28, TA=27.

Let me know if I've done something incorrectly so I can fix it and better understand how Hachimonji functions.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2022-06-24 17:30:58
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Yup those look just like the graphs I made a while back when I looked into it and ya the more QA/TA/DA you run the closer to "normal" your tp gets but also usually the less store tp you run.

I would note that after 100 store tp Hachi actually does hurt tp gain compared to normal if you take daken into account and the extent to which it is hurt is based on how many QA/TA/DA you have because that's how often you get to let a daken have store tp or not.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-06-28 15:05:33
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I wanted some decent regen in Idle:

ItemSet 385255

+20 Regen, HP+1128, Def+858, Vit+199, Agi+228, 47%-DT( 50% While Running w/ NIN boots or Danzo and swapping in D.Ring (-55 hp, -4 mdb, -4 enmity aswell as loss of foot stats or w/e)), Mag Eva+664, Eva+573, MDB+31 (is that good?), Enmity +32......

Acc+246, DEX 131, lolAttack+148, STR 149, MND+141, INT+142, CHR+138

Andartia's would be regen 5, hp 60, mag eva/evasion 30, enmity +10.

Thoughts?
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-06-28 15:12:45
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What is the purpose of this set specifically? It says Idle, but has a comment about movement speed, which is slightly confusing since you're not being hit (so all of the defensive stats are irrelevant).
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-06-28 15:15:25
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
What is the purpose of this set specifically? It says Idle, but has a comment about movement speed, which is slightly confusing since you're not being hit (so all of the defensive stats are irrelevant).

started as max HP+regen, but standing idle while not engaged, doesn't mean you aren't nessicarily in a battle that you wont miss defense stats.

would be a pretty mean kiting set also, while using D'ring for max DT.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-06-28 15:16:52
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
started as max HP+regen
rest of the stats just kinda fell into place. NOt max max regen, but biggest 3 NIN can equip.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-06-28 15:35:05
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
standing idle while not engaged

The only fight I can recall where I did this was Iron Giant Dullahan, tanking both red and blue for as long as possible with Yonin. I just used Mpaca pieces instead of Nyame for Killer effects, and just prioritized HP. Not sure there's many situations you'd idle tank and not engage. If you are, don't see any reason for Kannagi unless you're looking for evasion? Would MH Fudo C instead for the HP and tanking piece with Utsusemi.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-06-28 15:50:30
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Leviathan.Draugo said: »
standing idle while not engaged

The only fight I can recall where I did this was Iron Giant Dullahan, tanking both red and blue for as long as possible with Yonin. I just used Mpaca pieces instead of Nyame for Killer effects, and just prioritized HP. Not sure there's many situations you'd idle tank and not engage. If you are, don't see any reason for Kannagi unless you're looking for evasion? Would MH Fudo C instead for the HP and tanking piece with Utsusemi.
good to know, i have almost all this stuff at various upgrade stages, kannagi is my go to weapon, so just factoring that, i doubt ill ever get my hands on fudo, but good call for a max max set.

P.S. that set w/ a little adjust is good for engaged too. no reason it isnt, aside from crap damage potential.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-07-02 14:16:34
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Last night I was sorting through some subjob options and trying to find info on various spells hate factor. Noticed there isn't any data for sleep, bind, gravity, and a few others, wondering if there is any data on these spells as far as hate generation is concerned.

I know actually landing some of these spells or expecting them to last is not in the realm of reality as a sub job, but wondering about if it can hold attention at all.

I suppose I can try some basic attempts at testing these mystery spells. But hoping there may be more concrete data that is floating around but hasn't made it to wiki yet.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-07-02 15:31:08
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Sleep and Sleep II's enmity are on BG wiki.
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By Nariont 2022-07-02 16:21:17
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More than likely the debuff spells are all going to be 300~ VE/1 CE to keep in line with their "nerf" to rdm and nin/drk tanking back in the day.

Never knew aspir had 320 CE attached to it though if bgwiki is accurate, that's not bad
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2022-07-02 17:43:47
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What does a NIN PDL Savage Blade set look like? Drop Epaminondas for Sroda, Mpaca legs over Nyame?
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-07-02 20:23:20
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Sleep and Sleep II's enmity are on BG wiki.
Ok misspoke about sleep, but quite a few have a ? on them, was mainly what I was wondering about.
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2022-07-02 20:24:12
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Nariont said: »
More than likely the debuff spells are all going to be 300~ VE/1 CE to keep in line with their "nerf" to rdm and nin/drk tanking back in the day.

Never knew aspir had 320 CE attached to it though if bgwiki is accurate, that's not bad
and it's "free" and super cooldown..... Nice input, thanks Nari.
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