The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

I doubt theres any ill intentions behind it, it's probably just a mistake he overlooked.


We're all here to just try to talk about whats best after Kikoku since its the obv best pick in any situation

The numbers in those pictures are totally different then the cells on mine, I JUST downloaded it like 2 hours ago when taint asked about his set.

Kikoku left, Kannagi right



This is why spreadsheets are not the endall be all solution. One small mistake (humans do this) can completely skew the entire thing.

Why would Relic Bonus be 160? It's been determined it's another multiplier, not just 140 + 20. I'll redownload in case there were any other changes I could take a look at but just pointed out what pops out at me from that screenshot.

Edit: I got the spreadsheet from the Capuchin post on the last page, just to clarify. Where did you grab your copy from?

The OP link

Looks changed again, have to get it again

Yeah I just picked it up and had a look, from what I can tell still same error with the formula in E278 not accounting for E275 as a multiplier. Switching wep to Aug Kannagi and ws to Hi also shows the two 110% multipliers instead of 1 that I originally mentioned.

274 Should not be 110% ?

Kannagi 119 (III) no aug doesn't get (any?) bonus damage to Blade:Hi?

Kannagi 5018
Kikoku 5340
Heishi 5830

And those assume kannagi and kikoku START with aftermath up. Take that away and heishi is even further ahead.

That sounds accurate from analyzing the weapons strengths/stats, Kannagi at the bottom and Heishi VERY far ahead.

Don’t be so sanctimonious, I was getting a bit annoyed with the multitude of “show evidence” comments from people who had no evidence of their own to support their positions, so I took it upon myself to show evidence. Which I clearly said may have included errors that I would appreciate others correcting (as well as noting some errors myself re: Kikoku). I’m all for better information.

So, I will apologize if anyone who is actually contributing with legitimate information and corrections was offended. I will not apologize for trying to bring discussion past completely unsupported Metsu=Bestsu talk (aside from the he completely tongue in cheek jokes) or people with zero evidence acting like Empy must be bad since Blade: Hi sucked when they used it on their Kikoku.

It’s still totally silly that people say things like Kikoku atk+ is more valuable than Empy AM3, or that Kikoku SC are way more powerful than the downright broken Aeonic TP bonus. Spreadsheet results or not, I have played a lot with both Kannagi and Kikoku with equally high quality gear, and it’s really rare for me in actual situations that Kikoku ends up outperforming Kannagi. I’m not at all surprised to see that reflected in realistic buff spreadsheet situations. To be fair, I have yet to augment either to R15, but I absolutely can’t see the augments radically changing anything.

People do get a little (a lot) overzealous about it...

Kannagi and Kikoku are really really close. The only real difference being if you overflow kannagi starts to be better ... which we all do.

Aeonic 500tpbonus is just straight broken, it's the same complaint I have about daggers. it's just unreasonable. Relic ws NEED to scale. All of em.

If you set Overtp rounds from .5 to 1.5 Kannagi and Kikoku become IDENTICAL dps within ~50

In closing every weapon is unique in its own right, and if you prefer x weapon over y weapon its okay.

Sometimes you may say hey, Heishi does much better than Kikoku and thats okay, because everyone who says that is wrong. METSU4LIFE

I'm pretty sure I asked as nicely and respectfully to be given evidence purely for the sake of knowledge.

All you gave was an inaccurate spreadsheet, when it's been stated your spreadsheet is wrong beforehand, and actual proof was now given about how inaccurate it is. I wanted pictures, videos, hard math. I did my own math - Kannagi came off as very bad.

That's something people don't seem to really get, a lot of the differences aren't that major. And how you play can lend you to one weapon over another. Spreadsheets assume perfect scenarios, which are impossible to actually hit. So whatever the spreadsheet difference is in DPS is going to be heavily reduced in practicality. So if your style better fits the advantages of a certain weapon, you probably will end up with a better showing for it.

Latest spreadsheet numbers I saw had a 300 difference between Kannagi and Kikoku. I can have more than a 300 dps variance from one dynamis run to the next, just based off of RNG and how I am feeling.

even taking human error out of the equation and assume perfect play, you can have upwards of a 20-25% difference between two results when everything is equal

Is the TP bonus that broken with Katana?

Outside of Ten there isn’t a lot to bonus.

Shun - att bonus
Hi - crit rate
Ten - huge scaling
Kamu - acc down
Ku - nada
Metsu - AM duration
Jin - crit rate

Am i missing any big ones?

The one ws with "huge scale" is the one we/you/they measure it by

That one 500tpbonus takes Heishi from 5840 down to 5099

When I don't have store TP roll and I'm using 5/5 kenda on apex mobs 25% of my dmg is autos. Kannagi AM essentially is 50% auto-attack damage, thus I gain 12.5% damage from Emp AM3. Kikoku aftermath is essentially 10% damage if benefiting from the attack power.

If I take off kenda and use optimal pieces for DPS(Adhemar +1 gloves, samnuha tights) and get sam roll, my auto-attack damage plummets even further lowering the power of Kannagi's AM.

50 AGI is a pretty irrelevant stat and does almost nothing besides racc, while 60 attack will add more damage, so Kikoku wins here. Augmented, 70 agi is still pretty not useful outside of racc, but the 20 dex does indeed help. 60 attack and 20 dex can be considered equal.

Basic math shows that Kannagi is BARELY better than Kikoku ignoring having to WS at 3k and a fight lasting 3 minutes to take full advantage of the AM.

So from this, I'd just say "make whatever is easier/quicker until you get Heishi" because the difference between a RMEA katana and non-rmea is absolutely massive - Make Kikoku. Kannagi, in optimal situations, is barely better than Kikoku and requires massively more time, gil, and effort.
50% attack on shun is huge on an attack starved job.

Ninja lacks a good high damage spammable WS, 750 tp bonus(moonshade + heishi) makes NIN have a way to contribute to TP burn situations. Without Heishi, ninja's DPS is pretty meh in any TP burn situation as Ninja really relies on skillchaining to do any decent amount of damage with it's excellent SC properties(a good fusion ws, a good gravitation ws).

Edit: Augmented Kikoku also ends up giving NIN a VERY strong 8.4 ftp spammable WS. This makes Kannagi even worse off as a weapon, as 10% dmg to a weak ws(blade: Hi) cannot compare to another 20% on a very strong weapon skill(metsu).

At this point, I can see Kikoku beating Kannagi even if you are pdif capped and not benefiting from the AM or the 60 attack on the weapon. Augments have simply made Kannagi fall behind even further.

I feel like this is the best explanation for why I always end up getting better performance out of Kannagi in practice. Even more when I have to hold off on WS sometimes to wait for a SC or something (which is a real downside for Metsu SCing, despite its good SC properties). At that point, it’s actually probably better for Kikoku to use Shun if possible, instead of sticking to Metsu.

Plus, that whole whenever you’re actually capped ark Kikoku getting nothing from AM and base Atk+60.


Yup.

Blade: Hi doesn't really become that much better from overflow, it scales which is better than literally not scaling, but the amount of crit it gets, and how weak of a WS it is compared to any other NIN weapon skills isn't really that great. You aren't going to simply spam Blade: Hi with Kannagi just as you are not going to only spam Metsu with Kikoku - shun is still your bread and butter, and if you have TP overflow you're going to be pressing Blade: Ten which 70 agi does nothing for and 20 dex vs 60 attack power are pretty even all things considered(sometimes the 60 attack does nothing, sometimes its very helpful).

With the augmented 20% additional Metsu damage, Metsu ends up beating Shun I'm pretty sure and becomes your bread and butter, but you're still going to be using Blade: Ten anytime you have tp overflow regardless of any weapon you use.

1.0 * 5 = 5.0. Add offhand hit, 6.0 .
5.0 * 1.4 = 7 * 1.2 = 8.4. Offhand hit barely matters for metsu.

Metsu does indeed beat Shun by a lot.

R15 Kikkoku Metsu is Dramatically better than Shun

Like, double.

better than ten, as well, until.... maybe 1500+250 (because remember, no 500 tpbonus~)

Empy am3 is mainhand only. So you don't get +50% to white damage. You get more like +25%. It's a nice bonus but not that huge. That's part of why I am not as big into Kannagi despite getting a r15 Twashtar for my thf and loving it. The am3 bonus is icing, not the cake.

Not to mention with NIN Daken is also part of that 25% and won't get am3 either.

Emp AM3 is 200% auto-attack dmg which happens 50% of the time and only effects your mainhand so it's essentially 50% autoattack damage. Of course this is slightly lower if your offhand is lower weapon damage than your offhand and it will be.

Daken is a good point, that makes Kannagi even worse.

daken is a terrible point, the only considering it has is ranged accuracy and crit from kannagi. aftermath is completely unrelated.

and store tp from heishi ofc

No because most parsers combine ranged and melee auto-attack into one number. That means my 25% auto-attack damage isn't actually accurate, my real melee auto-attack damage is lower and Kannagi's AM is even worse than I thought.

that's the parsers problem, not a math related one. if you ignore daken you're still comparing ODT and melee attack. daken has nothing to do with either of those comparisons.

Yes it is, because we were using 25% as it's the number that "attack" is listed under on my parser. So we just realized we shouldn't be using "25%" in our calculation and should be using a lower number - meaning Kannagi is even worse than I calculated in a previous post.

then it's the way your parser prints, not how it's calculated.

I get what he's trying to say but its really not that big of a deal.

Instead of 50% main hand and 50% off hand

it's 33% main 33% off 33% dakens meaning from 0-100 you get less AM procs. more or less. It really is insignificant though. You will spend slightly less time hitting with your AM because dakens are building your tp faster.

It's basically exactly what happens when you add some amount of STP you devalue your white damage (and AM) ((by a really insignificant amount))

i get the point too, but kikoku aftermath doesn't affect daken either which is why daken shouldn't be a consideration when you're comparing the AM effects like they're trying to.

I think theyre just trying to say the overall value of AM on kannagi is lessened by daken. (which is true, but very silly to say)