God And Aurora
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God and Aurora
god knows the world is getting overpopulated. he lets people die to keep the numbers down and to expose us to grief. being exposed to grief and tragedy leads to a greater appreciation and understanding of our blessings. doesn't matter anyway. this is all just a dream.
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Shadowe Elrik said: » Even with that said Xueye, the laws of physics are broken time and time again. We have observed them become rendered null and void in many instances. Science is admitting that we are going to make mistakes every step of the way and that we have to just keep modifying our steps. The laws of physics and the laws of physics as we know them so far are different, but every day the gap closes just a little more. Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: » The laws of physics and the laws of physics as we know them so far are different, but every day the gap closes just a little more. Shadowe Elrik said: » Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: » The laws of physics and the laws of physics as we know them so far are different, but every day the gap closes just a little more. I don't understand the relevance of this. Shadowe Elrik said: » Agreed. I was just merely stating that every time we think we have all the knowledge there is on a subject, we are proven wrong. Which goes for science and religion equally. If the point you are trying to make is that anyone dogmatic in their confidence regarding either of the aforementioned topics is a fool then I agree completely. No relevance, just stated matter-of-factly.
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » Shadowe Elrik said: » Agreed. I was just merely stating that every time we think we have all the knowledge there is on a subject, we are proven wrong. Which goes for science and religion equally. If the point you are trying to make is that anyone dogmatic in their confidence regarding either of the aforementioned topics is a fool then I agree completely. Artemicion said: » testi said: » I was only pointing out that it is just as sill as saying "the religions person deep fear of being wrong that make them so anti-science." Except it's not. As many doctrines within religion(s) lie on the foundation of being absolute and infallible. To have any question, evidence or otherwise opposition to what has been deemed truthful under the sanction of God/whatever ancient tome have you, would be considered blasphemous and atrocious, and grounds for repercussion and consequence from religious authorities therein. So yes, a great factor in why many religious followers are skeptical or outright defiant of scientific methods is because they firmly believe that there is only one truth: the one approved by their deity. Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: » testi said: » And this so called common ancestor is based on the findings of skeletal remains of ancient chimps. How you can not be skeptical of this is beyond me. The only thing this proves is that they are similar to humans. If there was empirical data that showed 100% certainty it would not be a theory it would be a scientific law however it does not meet the requirements. Please explain what you think scientific theories and scientific laws are so that we can engage this discussion properly. It would appear to me that you are using the layman terms for theory and law in the scientific field. We have bountiful amounts of evidence that evolution is true. There is no question about it. Evolution occurs. The earth rotates. We all will one day die. These are facts. There is no room to dispute them. Evolution occurs: this is the fact. The theory of evolution states reasons as to why evolution occurs. It's an explanation of something that happens. The theory of evolution explains that animals evolve due to [such and such] reasons and through [such and such] manners. It's like the germ theory of diseases: you can't deny we get sick, and the germ theory of disease explains why diseases come from germs. Evolution is not something that really could have a law, so far as we know, because a scientific law is a set of observations (such as formulas) that are continually accurate in predicting an outcome. In this way, we have stuff like Newtons' Law of Gravity, which allow us to predict how objects will move and such. A law that is disproven is not back to a theory. You may think of it easier as such: In science, a law allows you to see what will happen, whereas a theory allows you to see why. I'm not arguing the merit of any or all religions simply the logic behind the theory of creationism. We could split hairs and say I'm arguing the validity of monotheism and the Abrahamic religions which practice it but that is not my intent on this thread. As far as scientific terminology vs layman speak I must admit I am not a scientist (unless you want to count political science lol) so my application of the term may be off. However I do not view this as an issue as the theory can not be proven or disproved at this time. Shadowe Elrik said: » Even with that said Xueye, the laws of physics are broken time and time again. We have observed them become rendered null and void in many instances. +1 testi said: » As far as scientific terminology vs layman speak I must admit I am not a scientist (unless you want to count political science lol) so my application of the term may be off. However I do not view this as an issue as the theory can not be proven or disproved at this time. On that matter, did you know gravity is not a law? It's a theory, like evolution. Maybe apples fall towards the Earth because God says they should. Okay, sure. What's even more remarkable about gravity is that it's probably wrong. The grand unified theories I'm aware of attribute gravity to a 11th dimensional substrate that slips into our reality. Crazy, no? I'd rather just believe God makes the apples fall. Now ponder this. Imagine a world where we have fully explained everything. The theory of everything is complete, and accurately predicts everything; there are no singularities; everyone is happy. What if we merely happened upon a sequence of rules that appear to be the correct rules but aren't really the real rules at all? A friend of mine laughed at me when I was talking about the science of FFXI and considering this was back in 2005 or so he probably had every right to. I told him how people were doing empirical testing, on everything from enmity to weaponskill damage. The formulas we have today are a direct result. What I want to know is just how close we actually got to the real game data. Maybe one day, we can find that out. There's no source code laying around for the universe, however. The only thing we can do is trust that our observations, since time immemorial, are consistent with the way things appear to work. Such is evolution. There's no absolute certainty but it is a consistent explanation for what we see. If you know of some greater truth than that, I would like to hear it, and I do hope it's not about some bearded white dude in the sky. Ragnarok.Kongming said: » testi said: » As far as scientific terminology vs layman speak I must admit I am not a scientist (unless you want to count political science lol) so my application of the term may be off. However I do not view this as an issue as the theory can not be proven or disproved at this time. On that matter, did you know gravity is not a law? It's a theory, like evolution. Maybe apples fall towards the Earth because God says they should. Okay, sure. What's even more remarkable about gravity is that it's probably wrong. The grand unified theories I'm aware of attribute gravity to a 11th dimensional substrate that slips into our reality. Crazy, no? I'd rather just believe God makes the apples fall. Now ponder this. Imagine a world where we have fully explained everything. The theory of everything is complete, and accurately predicts everything; there are no singularities; everyone is happy. What if we merely happened upon a sequence of rules that appear to be the correct rules but aren't really the real rules at all? A friend of mine laughed at me when I was talking about the science of FFXI and considering this was back in 2005 or so he probably had every right to. I told him how people were doing empirical testing, on everything from enmity to weaponskill damage. The formulas we have today are a direct result. What I want to know is just how close we actually got to the real game data. Maybe one day, we can find that out. There's no source code laying around for the universe, however. The only thing we can do is trust that our observations, since time immemorial, are consistent with the way things appear to work. Such is evolution. There's no absolute certainty but it is a consistent explanation for what we see. If you know of some greater truth than that, I would like to hear it, and I do hope it's not about some bearded white dude in the sky. Valid points, our perception of reality is based on three dimensions and five senses but like you stated there are more dimension that we can not perceive. We can theorize how this works in quantum physics or experience it through altered states or perception (dreams, meditation, drugs). However just like with your example of gravity I would say that science explains the "how" but not the "why". And because of this there still exists the possibility that a creator set the big bang and evolution in motion. As far as evidence of course I can not present any. Anything short of God revealing himself to the world would not be convincing. testi said: » However just like with your example of gravity I would say that science explains the "how" but not the "why". And because of this there still exists the possibility that a creator set the big bang and evolution in motion. Didn't you just say you didn't believe in evolution? Odin.Eikechi said: » testi said: » However just like with your example of gravity I would say that science explains the "how" but not the "why". And because of this there still exists the possibility that a creator set the big bang and evolution in motion. Didn't you just say you didn't believe in evolution? I don't, was pointing out if it was indeed fact then it still doesn't disprove creationism in it of it self. Btw have any of you seen the video on the theory that our entire universe isn't even real? It's all a projection of light from a source outside of our universe? Was a really awesome video concerning black holes. Was on discovery a few months back. Worth a watch.
The question then becomes how do you know it's your deity of choice? Faith is the only true and honest answer here.
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Odin.Eikechi said: » Btw have any of you seen the video on the theory that our entire universe isn't even real? It's all a projection of light from a source outside of our universe? Was a really awesome video concerning black holes. Was on discovery a few months back. Worth a watch. I like interesting ideas. I just don't personally believe that the nature of our reality is complicated, or that such complex and elaborate theories should be entertained until there is a necessity to explain something we currently can't. Occam's razor, you know.
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testi said: » However just like with your example of gravity I would say that science explains the "how" but not the "why". And because of this there still exists the possibility that a creator set the big bang and evolution in motion. As far as evidence of course I can not present any. Anything short of God revealing himself to the world would not be convincing. If there's no evidence, why entertain it? It took 50 years to get indirect evidence of the Higgs Boson.
testi said: » Anything short of God revealing himself to the world would not be convincing. Gonna throw you another hypothetical. Quote: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke Assuming the world doesn't end in December, and humanity progresses technologically to the point, several tens or hundreds of years from now, where just about every divine feat in the Bible was easily achievable by even the lowliest peon in society, and I'm talking walking on water, water into wine, bringing the dead back to life, people living to be 900 years old, hell, shooting lightning out of my freaking eyes, what would you say? God is kind of missing a golden window of opportunity to reveal himself because pretty soon anything he allegedly did or can do will be pretty damn unimpressive.
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Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: » testi said: » However just like with your example of gravity I would say that science explains the "how" but not the "why". And because of this there still exists the possibility that a creator set the big bang and evolution in motion. As far as evidence of course I can not present any. Anything short of God revealing himself to the world would not be convincing. If there's no evidence, why entertain it? Faith. I have come to this conclusion based off my own personal subjective experiences. Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » The question then becomes how do you know it's your deity of choice? Faith is the only true and honest answer here. This! It seems more likely that your ignorance will dictate which faith you choose, not your enlightenment. In other words, you'll choose X because you don't really know ***about Y. It's convenient to believe YOU got it right! If I were religious, I'd be riddled with self-doubt. Where are those Christians, Muslims etc? Certainly not evangelizing on my campus.... Ragnarok.Kongming said: » testi said: » Anything short of God revealing himself to the world would not be convincing. Gonna throw you another hypothetical. Quote: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke Assuming the world doesn't end in December, and humanity progresses technologically to the point, several tens or hundreds of years from now, where just about every divine feat in the Bible was easily achievable by even the lowliest peon in society, and I'm talking walking on water, water into wine, bringing the dead back to life, people living to be 900 years old, hell, shooting lightning out of my freaking eyes, what would you say? God is kind of missing a golden window of opportunity to reveal himself because pretty soon anything he allegedly did or can do will be pretty damn unimpressive. I remember watching a cartoon show with Batman in it I'm not sure if it was the Justice League or it was the animated series I think it was the former. Someone(Wonderwoman I think) asked Batman if he believed in magic and I think he told her that all magic is what humans can't explain what happens. Nothing is make-believe or magical there's always an explanation and process If a human can reciprocate events that they were previously unable to perform then it's not magic and if they cannot and it happens for some unknown reason then it is considered as such. Kong also in response on my 3rd question: It was the power of a national tragedy that nearly killed those airlines regardless of how much of a track record they all had previously people's emotions were controlled by what happened and government responded by saving those airlines otherwise the panic would have killed the business which ties into what i was saying about how an event happens that completely floors people and leaves them unsure how to respond and they can panic when things aren't as necessarily as bad as they're going to be. In the essence of saying airplanes would no longer be the best mode of transport not about terrorism or the like. Xueye: If there's no evidence behind it just leave it alone? That's the wonder of science of being able to discover new things and find out exactly what things are. You(speaking generally) may not be able to find it because we're imperfect but it hasn't stopped any scientist since creation. Principia is a great work that deals with the effects of gravity but Issac Newton could never figure out what gravity consists of exactly only the effects of it. It's an incomplete work that'll wait for another person to pick up and continue which is the beauty of science it's something evolving and changing and everything is treated as tentative unless constantly found to be true and even then there are situations where those laws don't apply or have to be rebuilt to apply to a new situation. A parallel for reference you informed me of was the laws of physics not applying to subatomic particles and that they have their own laws governing them. Lye said: » If I were religious, I'd be riddled with self-doubt. Where are those Christians, Muslims etc? Certainly not evangelizing on my campus.... It is important to note that there are and have been religious individuals asking themselves such questions for centuries. The rank 'n file believer simply leaves that question to faith because such a question by nature leads individuals to wildly varying answers which breaks unit cohesion and undermines the unifying force of religious practice. Much like secularists want to create organizations that help to bring like-minded individuals together (see: Humanist Church, Richard Dawkins Foundation etc.) so do branches of faith that evangelize the importance of their "truth". If I were to believe God is simply a creator entity we know nothing about then where is the incentive to seek out such an entity? Where is my eternal reward to rub in the faces of those eternally damned? Why has this entity not contacted me in some way? Does it not care? How does this deistic God play into my selfish desires to be protected, cared for and blessed? Is God merely just a "challenge" to reach for and ultimately fail striving towards as a species? Have alien species beyond our own had this same urge for a God? Did they arrive at the same faiths we did? Ragnarok.Kongming said: » testi said: » Anything short of God revealing himself to the world would not be convincing. Gonna throw you another hypothetical. Quote: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke Assuming the world doesn't end in December, and humanity progresses technologically to the point, several tens or hundreds of years from now, where just about every divine feat in the Bible was easily achievable by even the lowliest peon in society, and I'm talking walking on water, water into wine, bringing the dead back to life, people living to be 900 years old, hell, shooting lightning out of my freaking eyes, what would you say? God is kind of missing a golden window of opportunity to reveal himself because pretty soon anything he allegedly did or can do will be pretty damn unimpressive. Yes science is indeed for all intents and purposes magic. *edited* These end time predictions tend to come up a lot through history but it never seems to happen. The bible says no one will know when it will occur. There are prophecies which will indicate it. But the scenario your putting forth is turning man into God through technology which is transhumanism. I would rather not go through a terminator movie for real. Intensive purposes.. lol.. Someone has even used that very saying in this thread.. A post you responded to no less.
The more you say, the less and less I'm able to take you seriously. I mean you kinda started off at a low point with "Scientist are the modern day priest class with school being the tool of indoctrination.".. But you seem intent on digging a deeper hole. Just for the record, I AM judging you for your ideas/beliefs and not your understanding of the English language and it's idioms. That part just made me giggle. I was already building this view of you before this post. Gimp said: » Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » Is God merely just a "challenge" to reach for and ultimately fail striving towards as a species? Have alien species beyond our own had this same urge for a God? Did they arrive at the same faiths we did? No, I don't want to deny the existence of life outside Earth in fact I'm as confident it exists as I can be confident about anything. My theory is that all civilizations succeed or fail based on whether they are able to give up their ancient and conflicting notions about reality. It's almost like growing up. It's exactly like growing up. You have to set aside the toys, accept the world owes you nothing, and work for a living. I don't have high hopes for us. And any waste of life, or this entire human experience, is extremely unfortunate. I do not beat around the bush: I'm not only an atheist but an antitheist. I wish for people to be allowed their own beliefs, but that is contrary to my wish that we succeed as a civilization. I know pushing atheistic agenda is not the answer. What I try to do, as I've concluded the best solution, is simply to get people to think. Just think. Question everything you're told. Question everything I've said. I'd love you to. If you know of a better solution I'd like to hear it. I'd really like humanity to pass this test.
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