God And Aurora

This is going to be pretty loaded, so I'll preface that I mean no offense to anyone or their beliefs. I'm just looking for viewpoints on the matter from people with a variety of backgrounds. Also keep that in mind with responses.. I'd rather this be an exchange of ideas than a heated debate.

I was already thinking it before I spotted the blog on CNN and have thought it countless times before, most notably after the 2004 tsunami. I guess I'm going to have to define "God" before I get started with this as the word has perhaps as many interpretations as there are people. This concerns mostly the Abrahamic version of God, literally or ideologically: a personal God who invests himself in the interests of mankind.

Christopher Nolan's statement on the shooting gets me every time I read it, and paints the scene so painfully accurate that I can't help but cry:


These weren't people going to work, or school, or a political rally. They were people who wanted to see Batman, and suspend their belief if only for a moment that reality isn't everything and there is a world were Magic is possible.

Of all the places and times for a person to kill another person, this is perhaps the most unforgivable, detestable scenario I can possibly imagine. What's worse is that I know one day someone will show me where my imagination has failed.

Where's God? Was this his will? Did he allow this to happen? Did he want this to happen? Is it all really "mysterious ways"? Is that not just a cop-out excuse for defending a god that is indifferent, illogical, and downright malevolent? Why believe in such an entity? The notion of spending all of eternity with such a being just sickens me. I honestly find it repulsive. I'd rather spend my eternity in hell if it means I don't have to be around this thing that willingly makes innocent people suffer needlessly.

So that's my position. For those believers among us, I want you to defend God, since he's obviously not here to defend himself. For those non-believers, I apologize for telling you what you already know. And for the fence-sitters, does an act like this sway you at all?

I know I've left out an impersonal god, by definition who cares as little about the troubles of mankind as he does a tree, rock, or gigantic hydrogen/helium fusion reactor. Maybe there is a Spinoza's god out there who created everything and subsequently left the building. To those with belief or lack of certainty about such a god: why? There's a great deal of uncertainty in life; I mean, I don't know for sure that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, yet I feel completely comfortable in making the statement "the sun will rise tomorrow" as an assertion and not an opinion or belief.

To everyone else, if by chance I skipped someone by categorization, my apologies for this rambling. Actually, my apologies to everyone in advance.

Some *** ate an apple pomegranate because she was high and a snake talked to her and then the old white dude in the sky got pissed and kicked us out of paradise, gave us free will, invented the menstrual cycle, and we pretty much immediately started killing each other.

I'm sorry, what's new?

Oh boy. This can go all kinds of wrong. I hope it doesn't.

Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?

And this is where I stopped reading.. It was BATMAN. Not an epic novel turned movie. It was BATMAN... Come on dude. Btw I give this thread like 1 day before it gets nuked. Who's got the over/under?

I don't understand the relevance.

Are you really looking for "magic" and wonder at a batman flick?


edit: and can we not be constantly reminded of this tragedy? what's the point, really? it's utterly depressing. though i suppose that's my fault for clicking on a misleading title? /shrug

9 pages if this takes off.

Take this ***elsewhere.... seriously...

Replace magic with imagination/wonder? Better?

You're nitpicking, bro!

I don't get the point of this thread..

Bad ***happened, god must not exist, or if he does, then why did he just let this happen, I want the believers to prove to me he does? I dunno that's what I'm gathering..

Just title it religious debate No. 34,207, because that's what every single religious debate ends up being anyways. Can skip the shooting and Aurora and the actors feelings on it. Can skip all the *** and just let the ***flinging begin.

I don't believe you give your imagination enough credit, Eik. It doesn't matter that it was Batman, or Superman, or Shutter Island. Movies are a form of art, drawn from the written word, and even further from the spoken word that oral history and legends were passed through. Stories are as much a part of us as language itself.

God made matter which bullets are made out of. God's plan.

Not to spread the flames of an already-flammable thread, but ironically within a day or so of the event, MSNBC (now NBC News, no longer with MS) posted a cosmic-blog point about this very subject...

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/21/12879842-dont-blame-the-shootings-on-darwin-or-on-gods-wrath?lite

...if you read it, it really goes both ways. Pretty much anyone with a grudge can justify the environment of this guy using preconceived notions and try to "profile" him through their own world-view.

But in regard to the OP, the standing non-secular argument is that of "free will" and the actions of humans, etc. etc. I don't really want to get into it more than that as it's already been discussed ad nauseum in the Politics and Religion thread literally hundreds of times, and usually ends up in someone posting a .gif image of Epicurus' famous quote and thinking it trumps everything, then someone pointing out Epicurus' logic is faulty if the reward of eternal grace is greater than the suffering endured in an ephemeral existence, etc. etc. etc.

I don't know you're looking for some kind of meaning for the whole situation, but this made me think of a conversation that they were having on a talk radio station here in Colorado the other day.

The subject was the response to the whole thing - medical and police - and the apparently great job that they all did. According to whomever they were speaking with - some kind of representative, I didn't catch who it was - a lot of this was a result of revised training methods and operating standards of all kinds of first responders throughout the state. These revisions and updates were a result (in part) of another Colorado tragedy, the Columbine shooting back in 1999.

They commented that, yes, there probably is a silver lining to every dark cloud. The improved response to the Aurora shooting was part of Columbine's. That doesn't bring back any victims; but I'd be willing to bet that some survivors in Aurora appreciate that. (And remember, this is just a high profile incident - what about the response to an armed robbery? Or large traffic accident? Things that aren't in the national spotlight.)

So what's the silver lining here? Hard to say, especially now. And will it be something that "advances" us as a society? (Assuming we're even advancing at all!) It's very tough.

But a couple things are already coming out of it. Yes, it's reactionary, but when you put aside all politics, anytime people start asking questions like "what could we have done to prevent this? How could we have reacted better?" things can only improve.

As someone who (seems like they) are a believer, remember this, too: If there was an purpose behind this, you or I may never see it. This event could just be a single straw on a camel's back, but not the last. It could be the catalyst that inspires something great in someone that hasn't even been born yet. On the other hand, this might not even be any kind of trial - this might inspire someone to do something worse, and the actions of the people involved in that was the original plan.

I guess that's why they call it faith.

God isn't "some dude in the sky".
still lol'd

fixed

Sorry if someone knew anyone that died but cmon.. a few people died. That's it. Get over it.

I wonder about that, too. When I found out how much of a national thing this had become, (I live in Colorado, of course it's all over the place) I was really surprised. How many other people died that day that shouldn't have? Are their deaths any less tragic?

I mean, yeah, LOTS of people were and are affected by it, and it actually is really sad for them. But I don't believe for a second that X politician or Y celebrity or Z random person on the street is actually grieving for the victims, as so many of these people are professing.

The magic of cinema was the implication. I realize Nolan's Batman in particular is based largely in reality. Even still, the reality of vigilante justice by a sole seemingly invincible caped crusader is less reality and more fantasy. No, a wizard didn't do it, but it's close enough.

Yeah, too much attention has been given to this specific instance.
I mean, it isn't as bad as Kony 2012 (seriously???), but still.

One of the points I tried to make was the environment of a movie theatre.

I mean, there are places where I know I might die. Whenever I drive my car, for instance. Airplanes, not so much but still lingering. When I get on a ladder to change 20' high ceiling light bulbs, yeah.

But at a movie theatre? I mean sure you could have a heart attack or stroke, but those could occur at any given moment, anywhere. There was a joke in a movie (if memory serves me it was Pure Luck) that the guy got struck by lightning inside a movie theatre. It's just an absurd place to die, by any reason.

When I watch movies I completely tune out. If you were to ask me my name half way through, I probably wouldn't be able to answer you without a moment of thought. I'm just not plugged into this reality anymore.

What I detest about this, as Nolan so perfectly put, is the violation of what I would consider a "safe zone" if there were such a thing. I mean, the Gabby Giffords shooting, and I live in Tucson and have been to that Safeway, I get it. It makes sense and dare I say by virtue of it making sense, I find it acceptable. If that makes any sense.

But in this case, if there were someone, or something that could intervene, why. Why the hell didn't it. I also know the dogmatic response of "mankind's freewill" which is really more atheistic than it appears, but I was just hoping for someone to chime in with another viewpoint.

Finally I realize this is an age old question. I just wanted to put it into light of the shooting and have discussion as related to it. Reportedly a lot of people lost faith after the 2004 tsunami and while 200,000 people weren't killed, I was curious if this had a similar effect.

There's no God.

Imagine trying to tell some alien the beliefs of any modern religion (Christianity, Islam, etc...)

They'd laugh in your face like the caveman/woman you are.

When did a movie theatre become sacred?

after reading only the title, all I can say is after Tebow left, there's no God left in Colorado.

There is no god, that's why he allowed this to happen. Moving on to the next tragedy ->

Well.... idk, Peyton Manning is a ok in my book, too.
(My book not being the bible.)

Fair enough, except for the "god" part.

I don't know? Your mileage obviously may vary. It's clear Nolan feels much how I feel.

The word sacred itself has religious implications and I did not mean any. I've just never felt threatened inside one, mostly because I'm tuned into a whole other world. I'm not even sure I can watch a movie again without being distracted by the fact that I live on planet Earth and there are crazy people out there who might kill me.

I thought it was common knowledge that people could kill you pretty much anywhere... It just doesn't process for me that somehow a movie theater is more shocking than a school or any other place for that matter... It's not like this is the first time that someone has been killed in a movie theater either but certainly not on this scale...

I'm not saying you shouldn't feel safe in one... but there's a lot of places you should be able to feel safe but that there's always a chance that something can happen... just odd to me that some people place theaters on top when it comes to thinking of places you should be safe... I mean you even mentioned work and school... why should I not feel any less safe at those places... especially school... or even my home... homes should be safe too...