Guttler, Did I Just Waste My Time?

Can't improve on perfection.

^

I improve on perfection just to say i did.

improved? (not really, but made it stay still...)

Saw Diki on the top viewed yet again, and wondered why the hell so I looked through his/her/its's forum history, found this thread and read it, all 5 pages til now.


I just want to touch base on one comment and throw my 2 cents on it.


This. I saw Diki around quite often prior to he/she/it getting their Emp/Relic/Mythic axes. He/She/It was a full Perle BST then. Probably geared now because some linkshell took pity on the weapons not having proper sets, but proper sets dont fix not knowing how to use them.

Being the world first Aymur must have given he/she/it a big-head as well, which is just what we need >.>

BTW nice Emerald Earring. That must have been difficult to obtain.


And Austar's avatar could only be improved in one way: If the chick was nude. *stares at bouncing breasts*

Wow creeper.

Pretty sure Diki didn't get all the ferine gear at the time because playtime was dedicated to getting Aymur... Diki finished it a year ago. well before dynamis was changed and BST became a bandwagon job.

Diki isn't arrogant about getting Aymur, but you sound pretty sour about it.

You are a gigantic creeper. Find something else to do in life.

Moving on~

I've been messing around w/ the BST Dps spreadsheets.
I've built the strongest TP and WS sets I can figure out for BST.

The only difference in the 2 setups is the weapons.
One setup has DA Ganelon and STR Astolfo
The other has 95 Guttler and DA Ganelon

The WS is Ruinator.

Total DPS comparison (vs Pil)
DA/STR Guttler/DA
Melee 29.375 29.833
WS Dmg 1165 1153
Total 59.002 58.921

Changing the target makes it so sometimes 95 Guttler is a bit better, sometimes the Ganelon/Astolfo combo is better.

Bottom line is there is not a significant difference unless you get Guttler up to level 99.

Are the BST dps Spreadsheets taking Guttler´s hidden "oocasionaly deals 2.5x damage" into account? (Same question for Choke procs).

Pil is your typical short, "burst-style" fight, where the difference might not be very big.

But what if you compare both weapons after a fght that actually takes longer than 2-4 minutes? Ruinator WS damage obviously favors STR Astolfo with it´s heavy STR mod in short, WS heavy fights, but even Guttler @95 with the hidden effect should clearly pull ahead if it takes any longer than killing Pil.

Choke is an additional effect that Guttler has on Onslaught WS.
So this comparison does not consider choke because you will never get choke unless you use Onslaught. Onslaught damage loses to Ruinator by a wide margin.

As far as pil being the sample, that is not a sample that says it was a short, zerg of a fight, that was a sample which uses Pil's level, def, vit, and eva for calculating Average damage and dps.

I do not believe the 2.5 damage bonus from Guttler is considered, but I am not certain. I have reviewed the information in the DPS spreadsheet and I have not identified a bonus for it. Also, I am not aware that anyone has identified the rate at which a 2.5 damage hit will proc. The occasional big hit is fun to see, but I do not think it is a very significant improvement in dps. (Pretty sure the choke effect will make a bigger difference just in its effect on pet damage, but then you have to compare the difference between onslaught damage and ruinator damage and how often you use one ws to the other.)

interestingly... it seems 95 guttler/STR Astolfo does better than 95 guttler/DA Ganelon. However, they are still incredibly close, and one combination can be better than the other depending on the specific defensive traits of your target. They pretty much balance out in effectiveness

bottom line is, unless you get guttler 99, the 99 DA Ganelon is on the same level.

Choke is an additional effect on attacks, it's unrelated to Onslaught. :)

Edit: Thoughts on best TP setups for Killer and non-Killer situations? I have a couple in mind, but was wondering what you would use.

Xilk you always have been an interesting and fun read at zam and here to me, but what you are saying this time is wrong. Choke can and does proc on normal attacks. People who tested it in ballista reported it's effect being stronger than that of the blm spell. Also, the od2.5xd effect procs around 16% of the time starting lv90, which has been reported numerous times over at bg. And since that hidden effect is the biggest selling point of guttler (and any relic, for that matter), your not doing the subject in discussion any favour by just ignoring it or pretending it is not notewhorty or just an occasional nice plus, which it is clearly not. It is what sets the weapon above any other axe (excl. Mythic), but incl. both str astolfo and ganelon with da+11. And for the record, i have both guttler95 (will be 99 this weekend) and ganelon99 with da+11.

So please stop spreading half-baked "final-info" which makes guttler look like it can easily be replaced with magian weapons.

Such a fun backread, I like when threads like this that I missed get bumped for my reading pleasure!

This is like saying Kikoku doesn't have added effect of Paralyze, but metsu paralyzes. This is actually quite a common misconception I have found(at least around my friends). It is due to the way wiki words the weapon skills.



This is generally where it comes from. However, Blade: Metsu doesn't paralyze at all. It is just damage with a lame aftermath of Subtle blow +10. :/ I can only assume its the same for Onslaught, dmg + aftermath: attack%+

Onslaught lowers acccuracy, with an attack+% aftermath.

Onslaught aftermath is +10% attack.

Ahh, glad to hear I misread the details for choke on Guttler. I couldn't remember the effect (I don't have one, been debating w/ myself whether to finish it or not), when I looked up the text it was squished together, and looked like it said it was an additional effect for onslaught. anyway, looks like I misread that. I"m also happy to hear that there are numbers on the proc rate for the occasional 2.5 damage hits. Do you know where that is in the forums? it would be good to put that on the wikis.

I didn't spread any "final-info". 'Bottom-line' means the main point. And its not half-baked. I told you exactly where I'm getting my information and precise numbers. I was simply surprised how close the numbers were. I'm glad there is a community which will reply!

I just checked the DPS spreadsheet thread on BG. It looks like the Relic bonus is calculated in the Onslaught WS. Also I've added a question if the 2.5x damage is included in the melee or not, and if the choke effect is considered.

Nvm. Allmost 5 in the morning, i should get some sleep.

Ack! I've been puzzling over what direction to go w/ TP sets!! This is a rather challenging path for bst because we have so many options!

Killer vs non Killer
Pet focused vs master focus vs hybrid!

That is 6 viable paths to pursue for TP sets. I think I'll just look at the master-focused sets for now.. because its still too difficult to see the effectiveness of pet+ gear overall. the WS sets are pretty easy at least. I had these put together awhile ago.

Normal Ruinator:


Killer Instinct Ruinator:


Master - TP - KI

There are 2 ways to approach this... maxed Killer effect or just as much killer effect as you can slip in w/out sacrificing the more traditional things like Haste.

I'll have to put more detailed thought into it, but for now I have this idea.

Which Ganelon is the best one to get the DA +11 or the occ att 2-4? i was going for the 2-4 but not sure how good it is compared to the DA att +11 one

Forget the 2-4. I made one, brought it up to 95, than started the DA+11 one, and even with that axe at 90 it was quite obvious which is better. I ended up tossing the 2-4 so i could bring DA to 99.

The thing is, when using the 2-4 you have to get rid of all DA equipment, since DA procs over 2-4. Also, the base damage of the Ganelon 2-4 is just horribly low. It is usable on /DNC, it does give TP a little faster. But that´s about it.

The way to go is get Ganelon DA+11, use with a strong main-hand axe, and try to stack as much DA as possible. With Brutal, Epona´s, Atheling, Twilight belt, Af3 feet and Tocis´s i have 30% DA (incl. Ganelon DA axe).

Nice. This is geared towards Pil-level foes? I think there are some slight alterations which win on Dynamis DC mobs for anyone interested. This is what I'm looking at, which is basically quite similar:

Ruinator:


And I substitute Phorcys body/hands with Ferine Gausape+2/Manoplas+2 as well when Killer effects are in play. :)

It's quite far out of reach for me, but it looks like if a person can somehow score a Fulad-zereh it'd be tough to beat a setup with it. Toci's/Ocelomeh+1 come in a close second place with regards to non-Killer TP.



Hmmmm... Some of these items are very annoying to get, haha.

Thanks for the reply i think from what you said i will go for the DA +11 one, luckly i haven't got to the trial which starts the 2-4 so i don't need to start again which is good. Haven't found much info on these axes but i didn't relise the 2-4 went before DA gear.

Read it wrong sorry you said DA gear went before 2-4 axe which makes it not worth having as some of the best gear has some DA on it.

Exactly, the order of procs is QA > TA > DA > OA x-x.

I always thought that if you had an example of QA +5% TA +15% DA +25% it would mean that 45% of you attacks would either be QA,TA or DA and 55% being normal attacks is this true? or doe's it work that QA and DA could proc at same time meaning that QA takes priority over DA, which means that having 25% DA could actully be less because most of the time TA and QA could proc at same time as DA. Hope you understand what i'm saying lol in my head it makes sence.

The second part is true. If more than one multi hit procs, the rule i mentioned above is applied and any lower multi hit proc is cancelled.

The only exception from that are the jailer weapons, where you have to use virtue stones in the ammo slot to make an extra attack from the equipped jailer weapon proc. Those do stack with other multi hit procs.

Ok thanks this makes more sence to me now