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The great debate: Casey Anonthy
Server: Phoenix
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Posts: 149
By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 14:22:48
Odin.Zicdeh said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Again, there are many situations where it seems like person X is the only person who could have done it. It doesn't mean they did it and that logic is what does get innocent people thrown in jail
Although it would be nice if all evidence was direct evidence, that's just not how ***works. Our legal system would fail if we only relied on direct evidence. .
Our legal system already fails, Letting rapists, child molesters and murders get entitled to bail, while forcing someone convicted of holding a lil too much pot to go straight to jail.
So we should just let it fail in all aspects? That isn't sound logic.
And if you felt as though I was attacking you, I'm sorry but you're being overly sensitive.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-07-07 14:26:16
Phoenix.Tunafests said: Odin.Zicdeh said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Again, there are many situations where it seems like person X is the only person who could have done it. It doesn't mean they did it and that logic is what does get innocent people thrown in jail
Although it would be nice if all evidence was direct evidence, that's just not how ***works. Our legal system would fail if we only relied on direct evidence. .
Our legal system already fails, Letting rapists, child molesters and murders get entitled to bail, while forcing someone convicted of holding a lil too much pot to go straight to jail.
So we should just let it fail in all aspects? That isn't sound logic.
And if you felt as though I was attacking you, I'm sorry but you're being overly sensitive.
I never said you were attacking me, you just tried to dissect a post that had nothing to do with what you were trying to support. It just reeks of blind defensiveness, because it was unnecessary.
Also, convicting exclusively on circumstantial evidence is fail. You need something solid that ties them to the circumstance.
Again, if I search "Rifles" and "Shooting" and a block away, someone gets shot, do I become a suspect? That's circumstantial evidence.
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 14:29:43
Odin.Zicdeh said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Odin.Zicdeh said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Again, there are many situations where it seems like person X is the only person who could have done it. It doesn't mean they did it and that logic is what does get innocent people thrown in jail
Although it would be nice if all evidence was direct evidence, that's just not how ***works. Our legal system would fail if we only relied on direct evidence. .
Our legal system already fails, Letting rapists, child molesters and murders get entitled to bail, while forcing someone convicted of holding a lil too much pot to go straight to jail.
So we should just let it fail in all aspects? That isn't sound logic.
And if you felt as though I was attacking you, I'm sorry but you're being overly sensitive.
I never said you were attacking me, you just tried to dissect a post that had nothing to do with what you were trying to support. It just reeks of blind defensiveness, because it was unnecessary.
Also, convicting exclusively on circumstantial evidence is fail. You need something solid that ties them to the circumstance.
Again, if I search "Rifles" and "Shooting" and a block away, someone gets shot, do I become a suspect? That's circumstantial evidence.
I didn't dissect your post, let go.
If you searched rifles, and shooting, and your child went missing for 31 days and you didn't report it and deliberately lied about it, and there was gunpowder residue in your car, and the child's remains were found near your home with a hole from a gunshot, then I would say that was enough circumstantial evidence to convict.
Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave 2011-07-07 14:45:55
Phoenix.Tunafests said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Again, there are many situations where it seems like person X is the only person who could have done it. It doesn't mean they did it and that logic is what does get innocent people thrown in jail
Although it would be nice if all evidence was direct evidence, that's just not how ***works. Our legal system would fail if we only relied on direct evidence. Sometimes all you have is circumstantial evidence, but even in criminal law, if circumstantial evidence leads you to a logical and reasonable conclusion, you can convict. In cases, jurors are supposed to understand that there is no legal distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence.
Bottom line is....... the jury did not have enough evidence to convict Beyond a reasonable doubt on a capital punishment case. I don't know about you.... but convicting someone on circumstantial evidence would be a hard and unfair decision. As to the jurors are supposed to understand the distinction.. The proof is in the pudding my friend
http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/04/jury-instructions-in-the-casey-anthony-trial/
Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave 2011-07-07 14:50:42
But I bet you would be singing a different tune if it was you in that courtroom on trial for your life with only circumstantial evidence being thrown to convict you with no Solid/Hard evidence pointing to you.
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 14:54:34
Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Again, there are many situations where it seems like person X is the only person who could have done it. It doesn't mean they did it and that logic is what does get innocent people thrown in jail
Although it would be nice if all evidence was direct evidence, that's just not how ***works. Our legal system would fail if we only relied on direct evidence. Sometimes all you have is circumstantial evidence, but even in criminal law, if circumstantial evidence leads you to a logical and reasonable conclusion, you can convict. In cases, jurors are supposed to understand that there is no legal distinction between direct and circumstantial evidence.
Bottom line is....... the jury did not have enough evidence to convict Beyond a reasonable doubt on a capital punishment case. I don't know about you.... but convicting someone on circumstantial evidence would be a hard and unfair decision. As to the jurors are supposed to understand the distinction.. The proof is in the pudding my friend
http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/04/jury-instructions-in-the-casey-anthony-trial/
Again, our legal system is not designed this way so that people who do a decent enough job of covering their tracks can go free. Again, it would be nice if only direct evidence was used in criminal cases, but that just isn't the reality.
Again, in law, circumstantial evidence can have just enough weight as direct evidence. This is a fact.
You say reasonable doubt but it sounds more like any reason to doubt. Reasonable doubt is only applied when another logical conclusion can be inferred from the facts presented in the case, and that if that conclusion implies the defendant's innocence.
The fact that they didn't even convict her of manslaughter just shows that this jury had some sort of complex going into the case, and felt that they needed to prove something themselves.
Lakshmi.Greggles
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By Lakshmi.Greggles 2011-07-07 15:07:43
Phoenix.Tunafests said:
The fact that they didn't even convict her of manslaughter just shows that this jury had some sort of complex going into the case, and felt that they needed to prove something themselves.
How so? Why are you so sure she's guilty?
Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave 2011-07-07 15:09:21
beyond a reasonable doubt adj. part of jury instructions in all criminal trials, in which the jurors are told that they can only find the defendant guilty if they are convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" of his or her guilt. Sometimes referred to as "to a moral certainty," the phrase is fraught with uncertainty as to meaning, but try: "you better be damned sure."
You know to be honest, all your logic is prone to starting arguments...... Just Saying!
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:11:24
Lakshmi.Greggles said: Phoenix.Tunafests said:
The fact that they didn't even convict her of manslaughter just shows that this jury had some sort of complex going into the case, and felt that they needed to prove something themselves.
How so? Why are you so sure she's guilty?
I've followed the details of the case.
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:12:28
Quetzalcoatl.Mustangdave said: beyond a reasonable doubt adj. part of jury instructions in all criminal trials, in which the jurors are told that they can only find the defendant guilty if they are convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" of his or her guilt. Sometimes referred to as "to a moral certainty," the phrase is fraught with uncertainty as to meaning, but try: "you better be damned sure."
You know to be honest, all your logic is prone to starting arguments...... Just Saying!
I enjoy a good debate, but there is none to be had here :(
Lakshmi.Greggles
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By Lakshmi.Greggles 2011-07-07 15:12:39
Phoenix.Tunafests said: Lakshmi.Greggles said: Phoenix.Tunafests said:
The fact that they didn't even convict her of manslaughter just shows that this jury had some sort of complex going into the case, and felt that they needed to prove something themselves.
How so? Why are you so sure she's guilty?
I've followed the details of the case.
So why do they have some sort of complex? I'm seriously trying to understand but I can't. It feels to me that you have it out for someone who might not even be responsible for the crime.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-07-07 15:13:06
Phoenix.Tunafests said: Odin.Zicdeh said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Odin.Zicdeh said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Again, there are many situations where it seems like person X is the only person who could have done it. It doesn't mean they did it and that logic is what does get innocent people thrown in jail
Although it would be nice if all evidence was direct evidence, that's just not how ***works. Our legal system would fail if we only relied on direct evidence. .
Our legal system already fails, Letting rapists, child molesters and murders get entitled to bail, while forcing someone convicted of holding a lil too much pot to go straight to jail.
So we should just let it fail in all aspects? That isn't sound logic.
And if you felt as though I was attacking you, I'm sorry but you're being overly sensitive.
I never said you were attacking me, you just tried to dissect a post that had nothing to do with what you were trying to support. It just reeks of blind defensiveness, because it was unnecessary.
Also, convicting exclusively on circumstantial evidence is fail. You need something solid that ties them to the circumstance.
Again, if I search "Rifles" and "Shooting" and a block away, someone gets shot, do I become a suspect? That's circumstantial evidence.
I didn't dissect your post, let go.
If you searched rifles, and shooting, and your child went missing for 31 days and you didn't report it and deliberately lied about it, and there was gunpowder residue in your car, and the child's remains were found near your home with a hole from a gunshot, then I would say that was enough circumstantial evidence to convict.
So basically, if I was a gun enthusiast, and was paranoid about the ***we see on TV daily, of overzealous prosecution seeking "Conviction at any cost", I'd be convicted as an innocent man.
That's not justice.
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:13:22
Lakshmi.Greggles said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Lakshmi.Greggles said: Phoenix.Tunafests said:
The fact that they didn't even convict her of manslaughter just shows that this jury had some sort of complex going into the case, and felt that they needed to prove something themselves.
How so? Why are you so sure she's guilty?
I've followed the details of the case.
So why do they have some sort of complex? I'm seriously trying to understand but I can't. It feels to me that you have it out for someone who might not even be responsible for the crime.
I think Jaerik's link earlier in the thread is a good example.
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:15:57
Odin.Zicdeh said:
So basically, if I was a gun enthusiast, and was paranoid about the ***we see on TV daily, of overzealous prosecution seeking "Conviction at any cost", I'd be convicted as an innocent man.
That's not justice.
You presented a situation vastly different than Casey Anthony's to fit your argument. It wasn't even remotely related.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-07-07 15:18:57
Phoenix.Tunafests said: Odin.Zicdeh said:
So basically, if I was a gun enthusiast, and was paranoid about the ***we see on TV daily, of overzealous prosecution seeking "Conviction at any cost", I'd be convicted as an innocent man.
That's not justice.
You presented a situation vastly different than Casey Anthony's to fit your argument. It wasn't even remotely related.
I don't see it that way, and apparently neither did the jury, so, too bad?
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:21:54
Odin.Zicdeh said:
I don't see it that way, and apparently neither did the jury, so, too bad?
This is what you wrote, lol. I don't know if you followed the case but that is not what the prosecution's case amounted to. The jury didn't do a good job, is what I am saying. Yeah, I guess that is too bad.
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Again, if I search "Rifles" and "Shooting" and a block away, someone gets shot, do I become a suspect?
Server: Odin
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-07-07 15:30:42
Phoenix.Tunafests said: Odin.Zicdeh said:
I don't see it that way, and apparently neither did the jury, so, too bad?
This is what you wrote, lol. I don't know if you followed the case but that is not what the prosecution's case amounted to. The jury didn't do a good job, is what I am saying. Yeah, I guess that is too bad.
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Again, if I search "Rifles" and "Shooting" and a block away, someone gets shot, do I become a suspect?
I fail to see the fundamental difference. Circumstantial is circumstantial. Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, and having a totally circumstantial case leaves many reasonable doubts.
Whether she is guilty or not, the Jury followed the law, and did a great job in that regard.
(by the way, I personally think she did it)
Server: Phoenix
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:34:27
Odin.Zicdeh said: Phoenix.Tunafests said: Odin.Zicdeh said:
I don't see it that way, and apparently neither did the jury, so, too bad?
This is what you wrote, lol. I don't know if you followed the case but that is not what the prosecution's case amounted to. The jury didn't do a good job, is what I am saying. Yeah, I guess that is too bad.
Odin.Zicdeh said:
Again, if I search "Rifles" and "Shooting" and a block away, someone gets shot, do I become a suspect?
I fail to see the fundamental difference. Circumstantial is circumstantial. Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, and having a totally circumstantial case leaves many reasonable doubts.
Whether she is guilty or not, the Jury followed the law, and did a great job in that regard.
(by the way, I personally think she did it)
There's a huge difference between the very basic situation you posted and Casey Anthony's. I don't think I need to spell it out.
I'm just saying, circumstantial evidence can be enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. Just because you don't want it to, doesn't mean it can't.
[+]
Server: Phoenix
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:43:42
Asura.Catastrophe said: If the jury can't even be sure how Caylee died, how do you expect for someone to be convicted of using some hypothetical method of killing someone?
They had the best human decomposition person in the world and there still was no clear cut method of determining even HOW she died. You want to convict someone of murder in the 1st degree as well as the extremely over-zealous notion of putting someone to death based on circumstantial evidence?
Yeah, maybe she did do it. But it's the fault of the prosecution not being able to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt and you can't hold it against the jury in reluctance to condemn and kill someone based on circumstantial evidence and the emotional degree of potentiality. The system worked, and I'm glad that the jury (which originally was at a 10-2 margin on conviction) didn't become prey to the emotional rapefest that the likes of those like Nancy Grace have cashed in on and now run embarassed.
It might be understandable not to convict on 1st degree murder, but how about manslaughter? That's inexcusable. They can't be sure how she died because of the degree of decomposition, but they had an expert testify that it was homicide. The theory the prosecution presented was logical enough, coupled with the internet searches, chloroform traces in the car, duct tape on the skull, Casey's behavior during those 31 days, the dumping of the body, and the smell of human decomposition in the trunk. At the very least, manslaughter should have stuck. Anyway, time for class!
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-07 15:46:34
nope and it didn't
Shoulda charged w/ neglect. Overcharged and lost. Bad gamble, shitty prosecution
Server: Phoenix
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By Phoenix.Tunafests 2011-07-07 15:51:14
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: nope and it didn't
Shoulda charged w/ neglect. Overcharged and lost. Bad gamble, shitty prosecution
"§ 782.07, Fla. Stat.
To prove the crime of Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child, the State must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
1. Caylee Marie Anthony is dead.
2. Casey Marie Anthony’s act(s) caused the death of Caylee Marie Anthony.
Or
The death of Caylee Marie Anthony was caused by the culpable negligence of Casey Marie Anthony."
Anyway, peace!
Bismarck.Faelar
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By Bismarck.Faelar 2011-07-07 15:52:21
I'm waiting for the news story in a week or two about how, after she went free, some random hobo on the street decided to take it upon himself to dole out some of his own brand of justice and shoot her in the face.
It's gonna happen. It's just a matter of time at this point.
95% of this country hates that woman.
[+]
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By Asura.Arkanethered 2011-07-07 15:53:33
Fun shows like CSI that have made everyone an expert through the distortion of perspective have seriously blurred "reasonable" doubt.
I'm not disagreeing with this case in particular. But it seems to be an ongoing trend.
Bismarck.Faelar
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By Bismarck.Faelar 2011-07-07 15:55:47
Asura.Catastrophe said: I heard rumors that Vivid offered her a porn deal, and then retracted it from negative reaction haha.
I heard that too, that's crazytalk.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-07-07 15:56:55
Quote: The death of Caylee Marie Anthony was caused by the culpable negligence of Casey Marie Anthony." I said she was negligent not that the negligence was the cause of death
Ragnarok.Amador
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By Ragnarok.Amador 2011-07-07 16:30:26
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Quote:
I said she was negligent not that the negligence was the cause of death
Who is to say really? She's getting off clean simply because there is no binding evidence to state that she is guilty. She did not confess, she did not have anything that would place her as guilty beyond questionable doubt for the death of her child.
Her entire testimony was a load of lies. This is the loop hole that American Law has, if there is no binding evidence that allows a suspect to be held, he walks free. Regardless of the fact that common sense would lead to believe otherwise.
What kind of person, knows her child is missing, makes up stories, and parties all night?
Her tattoo reads: Beautiful Life, what does that imply?
On a psychological level that implies she's free. Wonder what she could of freed herself from? Oh right, the responsibility of being a Mother, because when you are a parent and you have to take care of your child, there's no time for partying and tattoos like that.
It's not just negligence, it's a whole other level shamelessness, and selfishness.
[+]
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Kaioshin 2011-07-08 13:24:48
Asura.Catastrophe said: I heard rumors that Vivid offered her a porn deal, and then retracted it from negative reaction haha.
I would download that.
Totally hittable I keep telling you.
Officially innocent, thoughts?
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