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Who wants Asuran Fists?!
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-21 10:39:12
You mean Afflictors right? *** Avengers.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-06-21 10:40:21
Ramuh.Austar said: You mean Afflictors right? *** Avengers. They're both gimp
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3351
By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-06-21 10:40:32
Forum>>FFXI>>Jobs>>Monk>>Who wants a pet?!
Carbuncle.Virtuosus
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 683
By Carbuncle.Virtuosus 2011-06-21 10:40:37
Ramuh.Austar said: You mean Afflictors right? *** Avengers.
Yeah, Afflictors. Can't tell you how many MNKs I see using them exclusively when things like Taurine exist.
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-21 10:41:06
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Ramuh.Austar said: You mean Afflictors right? *** Avengers. They're both gimp I know, dude.
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10457
By Ramuh.Austar 2011-06-21 10:41:59
Carbuncle.Virtuosus said: Ramuh.Austar said: You mean Afflictors right? *** Avengers.
Yeah, Afflictors. Can't tell you how many MNKs I see using them exclusively when things like Taurine exist. Or Destroyers.
Asura.Solara
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 536
By Asura.Solara 2011-06-21 10:58:34
I'd prefer the devs spent their time on things that anyone other than you would remotely give a ***about.
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Carbuncle.Sharkycan
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11
By Carbuncle.Sharkycan 2011-06-21 11:34:43
PUP cannot out DD equally geared MNKs without their automation. However, any PUP could be able to out DD any MNK with their BLM frame out. Swapping in pet MAB when a spell hits and ice maneuvers with the right attachments should make this no contest if you add that to the PUPs dmg.
PUP takes a lot more skill, preparation, and timing to play the job well than MNK does, which is why there is "lolPUP". There aren't many that play it well.
As for the thread topic, PUP gets barely anything to help with triggers. It would be nice to get one more, but I don't think we "need" it.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-06-21 11:39:51
Quote: PUP cannot out DD equally geared MNKs without their automation. However, any PUP could be able to out DD any MNK with their BLM frame out. Swapping in pet MAB when a spell hits and ice maneuvers with the right attachments should make this no contest if you add that to the PUPs dmg.
Not really. Setting up blm auto isn't all gain, hurts the master's dmg. No where close to no contest really. Not to mention AoEs can rly mess that arrangement up anyways
Leviathan.Angelskiss
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7227
By Leviathan.Angelskiss 2011-06-21 11:42:49
Hey I have neither taurine cesti yet or destroyers ..
i had destroyers and tossed em then leveled monk like 6 mths later -.-;
Also I want the str h2h first but trying to finish a ukon and ele staves I only have so many slots to use :P
/shrug im gimpeh but I acknowledge it
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-06-21 11:44:19
Something that's rather easy would work for now and wouldn't take much time to get, either.
My first choice for non taurine no magian (and of course no smite) mnks.
Though, if you were on my server, you'd have at least Taurine.
Leviathan.Angelskiss
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7227
By Leviathan.Angelskiss 2011-06-21 11:45:46
Good idea tiger ^6 I will look into getting those asap!
I do like monk VERY MUCH but everyone knows my time and effort goes into my blm and whm first <3 they are my true loves!
Carbuncle.Sharkycan
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11
By Carbuncle.Sharkycan 2011-06-21 11:53:36
Yes I am talking about single targets and yes this is situational depending on the enemy.
With approximately 6.5k(3k outside abyssea) dmg X 2 every ~1min from blm frame T5 + the dmg of a well geared PUP is hard to beat. If your puppet dies or gets hurt there is dues ex and oils. Of course certain NMs will take less dmg but that goes for all dmg depending on the situation.
Mind you PUPs can't tank anywhere near as well as a MNK, but that wasn't in the initial argument.
edit: Although I haven't really tried tanking on PUP(Only solo). I tank on MNK usually.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-06-21 12:00:20
Carbuncle.Sharkycan said: Yes I am talking about single targets and yes this is situational depending on the enemy.
With approximately 6.5k(3k outside abyssea) dmg X 2 every ~1min from blm frame T5 + the dmg of a well geared PUP is hard to beat. If your puppet dies or gets hurt there is dues ex and oils. Of course certain NMs will take less dmg but that goes for all dmg depending on the situation.
Mind you PUPs can't tank anywhere near as well as a MNK, but that wasn't in the initial argument. I'm talking in general. There may be 1 mob out there in the game that brd can out DD pup, but that doesn't make it a better DD.
But even if you are going into specifics, if you're doing 6.5k nukes, the damage from the master is negligible because you obviously have atmas geared towards nuking. Oils have a recast and if you're using Deus, the first thing the puppet will do is cast aspir or drain, so you're getting no damage from that.
Anything that can use -ga spells or has multiple aoe tp moves (or both), pup is practically useless on, so I'm not sure exactly which monsters you're speaking of for these 1 on 1 battles. You don't go up to a little exp mob and just fight one and most of the NMs that are worth fighting have some type of AoE
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Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 507
By Siren.Inuyushi 2011-06-21 12:06:52
You know, you could just play a job because you enjoy it. If you don't like the DMG it puts out then go play something that can put out big numbers. I play the jobs that I enjoy, nothing more nothing less. Less QQ maor Pewpew. MNK can deal more dmg than PUP, but PUP is a more versitile job than MNK. MNK can't go out subless fighting Tough mobs without stopping. I would like to say a PUP can due to it's Puppet curing it. A subless PUP can't tank an IT+++ like a subless MNK can. PUP is a pet job, it's made to be versitile.
Why do people think damage output is the only way to make jobs 'equal.' True BSTs that took the job to 75 pre-EXP change (had to release your pet @1% health to get full exp and spam a WS) leveled the job because they loved it and it could do what other could not.
Carbuncle.Sharkycan
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11
By Carbuncle.Sharkycan 2011-06-21 12:22:00
Now your just being anal. I said I was talking about single targets and pup wouldn't always out dd mnk on every NM. There are NMs that are a pain for PUP, hence the "situational". I didn't say PUP will always out DD a mnk. I said it can.
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 127
By Bismarck.Minibuddha 2011-06-21 12:48:29
Myself as PUP I have done some nasty damage here and there. Can it outdamage a MNK? no. Can it do small time damage boost outside abyssea that MNK cant match? sure.
I enjoy PUP and I find myself playing both MNK and PUP. I can work faster and kill faster as PUP. Yeah the damage is lower and I can not hit as fast but hey it works good for me.
Yes there are lolpups out there but the job is skill heavy and requires people who can play well. You just have to find them who take the job seriously.
As for what the OP stated, PUP does not need Asuran Fists. Yes they raised the cap but honestly with Strinnging Pummel and Victory Smite, who needs it? So maybe we cant proc without out, to say the least have you tried using your puppet to make the mob Proc? I know it works. Just takes some time to test and figure out.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 720
By Shiva.Superdan 2011-06-21 13:49:42
Right. So, you want the development team to waste time implementing this into the game because
"mah pup haz no wsnm"
You don't even want the WS. You only want a red proc. Go level warrior.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-06-21 13:53:39
Carbuncle.Sharkycan said: I didn't say PUP will always out DD a mnk. I said it can. Yes, and brd can out DD pup, as well as whm, blm, dnc, cor etc. What's your point?
Bahamut.Mizuharu
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1988
By Bahamut.Mizuharu 2011-06-21 14:44:25
Shiva.Superdan said: Right. So, you want the development team to waste time implementing this into the game because
"mah pup haz no wsnm"
You don't even want the WS. You only want a red proc. Go level warrior.
Didn't realize that Asuran Fists proced Red. Well damn.
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Sylph.Kimble
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2011-06-21 15:06:41
Holy crap at this thread.
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Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 513
By Shiva.Msthief 2011-06-21 15:26:11
You forgot to add Ninja and Blade: Ku to your list. It adds to your point, ninja should be on that list two times.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15064
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-06-21 15:32:48
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: Shiva.Superdan said: Right. So, you want the development team to waste time implementing this into the game because
"mah pup haz no wsnm"
You don't even want the WS. You only want a red proc. Go level warrior.
Didn't realize that Asuran Fists proced Red. Well damn. it can
Carbuncle.Axle
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 742
By Carbuncle.Axle 2011-06-21 15:36:16
Why would pup want Asuran Fists anyway really?
I'm a monk w/o Victory Smite or Asectic's Fury.
I use Backhand Blow. Asuran is crap. Never saw Asuran bust out 2k dmg on Orthus(500dmg asuran is normal), but backhand blow does. Seen my best numbers on harder stuff with backhand blow as apposed to other mnk ws's.
Carbuncle.Virtuosus
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 683
By Carbuncle.Virtuosus 2011-06-21 15:41:24
Siren.Inuyushi said: You know, you could just play a job because you enjoy it. If you don't like the DMG it puts out then go play something that can put out big numbers. I play the jobs that I enjoy, nothing more nothing less. Less QQ maor Pewpew. MNK can deal more dmg than PUP, but PUP is a more versitile job than MNK. MNK can't go out subless fighting Tough mobs without stopping. I would like to say a PUP can due to it's Puppet curing it. A subless PUP can't tank an IT+++ like a subless MNK can. PUP is a pet job, it's made to be versitile.
Why do people think damage output is the only way to make jobs 'equal.' True BSTs that took the job to 75 pre-EXP change (had to release your pet @1% health to get full exp and spam a WS) leveled the job because they loved it and it could do what other could not.
Nobody is saying you can't level PUP because you enjoy it. But somebody ignorantly stated that PUP can outdamage an equally geared MNK, which is just flat out wrong.
My main job has been SAM since 2004, and currently it's a subpar DD inside of Abyssea, (although only as subpar as the player makes it), but I enjoy the job so I continue to play it. You don't see me saying that a SAM can outdamage an equally geared WAR though, do you?
Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-06-21 15:43:54
Siren.Inuyushi said: You know, you could just play a job because you enjoy it. If you don't like the DMG it puts out then go play something that can put out big numbers. I play the jobs that I enjoy, nothing more nothing less. Less QQ maor Pewpew. MNK can deal more dmg than PUP, but PUP is a more versitile job than MNK. MNK can't go out subless fighting Tough mobs without stopping. I would like to say a PUP can due to it's Puppet curing it. A subless PUP can't tank an IT+++ like a subless MNK can. PUP is a pet job, it's made to be versitile.
Why do people think damage output is the only way to make jobs 'equal.' True BSTs that took the job to 75 pre-EXP change (had to release your pet @1% health to get full exp and spam a WS) leveled the job because they loved it and it could do what other could not.
ITT: Fighting without sub jobs matters.
Leviathan.Draylo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-06-21 15:44:31
Carbuncle.Axle said: Why would pup want Asuran Fists anyway really?
I'm a monk w/o Victory Smite or Asectic's Fury.
I use Backhand Blow. Asuran is crap. Never saw Asuran bust out 2k dmg on Orthus(500dmg asuran is normal), but backhand blow does. Seen my best numbers on harder stuff with backhand blow as apposed to other mnk ws's.
Blue proc would be my guess, but dunno why you wouldn't just job change to MNK.
Carbuncle.Axle
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 742
By Carbuncle.Axle 2011-06-21 15:45:18
Leviathan.Draylo said: Siren.Inuyushi said: You know, you could just play a job because you enjoy it. If you don't like the DMG it puts out then go play something that can put out big numbers. I play the jobs that I enjoy, nothing more nothing less. Less QQ maor Pewpew. MNK can deal more dmg than PUP, but PUP is a more versitile job than MNK. MNK can't go out subless fighting Tough mobs without stopping. I would like to say a PUP can due to it's Puppet curing it. A subless PUP can't tank an IT+++ like a subless MNK can. PUP is a pet job, it's made to be versitile.
Why do people think damage output is the only way to make jobs 'equal.' True BSTs that took the job to 75 pre-EXP change (had to release your pet @1% health to get full exp and spam a WS) leveled the job because they loved it and it could do what other could not.
ITT: Fighting without sub jobs matters.
Raja
Cause he's like 99% of the game.
Sylph.Kimble
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2912
By Sylph.Kimble 2011-06-21 15:46:19
I think its been clear now, the answer to your title is, No one.
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3351
By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-06-21 15:48:19
Leviathan.Draylo said: Carbuncle.Axle said: Why would pup want Asuran Fists anyway really?
I'm a monk w/o Victory Smite or Asectic's Fury.
I use Backhand Blow. Asuran is crap. Never saw Asuran bust out 2k dmg on Orthus(500dmg asuran is normal), but backhand blow does. Seen my best numbers on harder stuff with backhand blow as apposed to other mnk ws's.
Blue proc would be my guess, but dunno why you wouldn't just job change to MNK.
That and the 240 or so non Abyssea zones?
Tell the devs here!
Quote: [To the Devs] Puppetmaster Accessing Asuran Fists
At the time I had originally posted this, I didn't have enough arguments to support the post. But I let it run as a discussion over in the PUP forum area and decided to repost here. (While people frown on [To the Devs] tags, I have noticed they reply more times than not to topics that begin with it.) I apologize for the repost, but here it is.
Ever since the update last year that increased Puppetmaster's combat rating up from 225 cap (@Lv.75) to 256(@Lv.75), many had hoped that we'd be able to access Asuran Fists. Now, I know Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite do more damage than Asuran Fists anyway, and I'm most likely blowing hot air posting this, but here are a few arguments for why we should be allowed to quest for this Weapon Skill...
1) We're the only other job that actually mains Hand-to-Hand in this game.
2) The only reason we originally could not obtain this Weapon Skill was because PUPs could not reach the skill level to open quest without merits/gear. (Asuran Fists quest is 250 Hand-to-Hand. Puppetmaster's new cap at 75 is 256.)
3) Every job besides PUP gets access to at least one WSNM Weapon Skill if not multiple.
---a) Empyreal Arrow - RNG
---b) Decimation - WAR BST DRK RNG
---c) Black Halo - PLD WHM BLU WAR MNK BLM SMN SCH
---d) Evisceration - THF COR RDM DNC WAR RNG BRD BST NIN
---e) Steel Cyclone - WAR DRK
---f) Tachi: Kasha - SAM
---g) Ground Strike - DRK WAR PLD
---h) Asuran Fists - MNK
---i) Detonator - RNG COR
---j) Impulse Drive - DRG SAM WAR
---k) Spiral Hell - DRK WAR BST
---l) Retribution - PLD WAR MNK SMN BLM WHM BRD SCH
---m) Savage Blade - WAR RDM BLU PLD COR DRK
So I ask again; why isn't PUP allowed to obtain Asuran Fists?
(Arguments thus far)
1) Was originally MNK only, should stay MNK only. (But Dancing Edge/Shark Bite use to be THF only and then DNC was added on. "But those aren't WSNM WSs" Fine. Detonator. Originally RNG only, COR was added on due to them getting the combat skill requirement. Speaking of COR, they were added to Savage Blade and Evisceration also. I realize they reached those skill levels originally when the job was first released, but the 225 on PUP was a joke. (Which is why it was raised last year, no?))
2) PUP doesn't need it because they have Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite. (BST mains Axes and rarely, if ever, use scythe and daggers. They don't "need" Sprial Hell nor Evisceration; but they still get them. COR's main damage is from marksmenship. They don't need Savage Blade/Evisceration. MNK mains Hand-to-Hand. Why do they need Staff/Club WSs? Again; because the Dev team gave them the combat rating. Thus, because they got the combat skill without merits/gear before or at level 75, they were allowed to partake in the WSNM quest. And, as I said before, Puppetmaster's Hand-to-hand skill cap is now 256. Asuran Fists quest is 250.)
3) The time spent adding PUP onto the weapons could be used to fix the Automaton AI. (You think that adding Puppetmaster onto one weapon would take longer than rewriting an AI program? You think it'd take that much effort that they'd say "well, that's all they'll get for a while. Let's save the AI program for next year." It's been how long since WHM/BLM frames have been out? And they still havn't done anything about -nas before Cures and high thresholds for Aspir/Drain. The AI works for solo play. They meant PUP to be a solo job that can still DD in party formats (like BST.))
4) If they wanted us to have it, they'd have done it when we received the combat update. (True. But there's so many things that certain jobs should have gotten, and are now getting (Yonin/Innin on seperate timers. Longer duration on Last Resort. Just to name a few.) I am hoping to get a Dev to notice this thread and at least say yay or nay.)
5) Just make Stringing Pummel a blue proc! (Why should this be the only Mythic WS to proc? None of the others proc because the Dev team know that WSNM WSs are easier to get than Nyzul WSs; compare a set 300 points to a weapon that needs 250~16,000.)
6) Puppetmaster can't wear the type of weapon the trial weapon is for Asuran Fists. (DNC can't use the type of weapon for Evisceration. By that I meant the Dagger of Trials is not the standard type of Dagger DNC can normally equip.) Savage Blade's weapon is a Sapara; a type of sword that RDM and COR normally can't use.)
7) There's only a one in three chance that, during blunt hours, the WS is Hand-to-Hand. And then a one in five chance it's Asuran Fists. (True, true. But, like people have said, procing !! is such a small part of the game. And, honestly, I admit to originally writing this thread for blue procing on PUP. But now it's just for equaility... To get what every other job has;access to their main weapon's WSNM.)
8) Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better. (While this is true, if you met a MNK that didn't have Asuran Fists, most of you would insist on laughing at them. If you met any job that doesn't have the WSNM for their main weapon (save maybe for a mage), you'd tell your linkshell all about it and everyone would have a good laugh. Atm, PUP is expected to not have it because they don't have access to it. Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite is better damage for PUP, yes. But Ascetic's Fury/Victory Smite is better for MNK with damage.)
9) It'd ruin the lore behind the quest. (Honestly, the lore behind quests/NPCs is ignored when needed. The PLD starter NPC? He also plays a role in the DRG quest. And teaches Impulse Drive. A DRG/WAR/SAM WS. Why isn't PLD included on it? (Because of low combat ranking in polearm.) Or, and this time it isn't some minor quest thing, what about Aegis? The NPC in the past that weilds it is Cerane I Virgaut, where as the NPC you see during the CS is Perseus. Hell, the original owner of Annihilator was Elivira, but then the CS shows Elrica (might be related in some way since both are humes, but...) You look up any other relic weapon wielded by an Allied Army NPC, and they're the NPC for the CS.
And, I can't believe I almost forgot about this, what about Gungnir? It is the javelin wielded by Odin, and yet Odin is seen wielding a completely different polearm, which he calls Gungnir. (In the Dev Team's defense though, they did make the relic weapons before they planned on making Odin a monster. And while it is not called Gungnir directly, they are names the polearm was also known by.)
All in all, if they need to make a loophole around lore, they can.)
Sorry for the wall of text.
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