RR And Predator Claws

That is also not true. Physical pacts can crit whereas unless you have the Smoldering Sky atma, magical pacts cannot (day/weather bonuses aside). Perg already made this clear in his post. Magical pacts will generally do more consistent damage, but they cannot match the upper damage range of physical pacts like Predator Claws.

I have a strong MAB set and my Heavenly Strikes routinely do between 4-5k on normal mobs. It does not often do that much damage on NM's however. That is not the case for Predator Claws. You can quite often reach those same numbers on NM's due to the fact that the pact can crit. With RR and GH, you should be critting quite often. And I have always enjoyed the magical side of SMN more so than the physical, but reality is reality. I am not underestimating those pacts in the least.

But as well all should know, everything is situational. You need to know what you are fighting and adjust accordingly.

It could be not a nuke at all. You don't even know it will be a nuke

The problem is that most NM's that matter DO have magical resistance and a criticaled P. Claws is going to do more damage.

If I am farming or in an XP party, I will use Heavenly Strike normally. It produces consistently high damage results. On NM's however, I am more inclined to use Predator Claws because there are quite a few NM's out there who are going to resist magical damage.

Translation, "I've been shot down so many times and I give up but I won't admit it1"

Step away from the keyboard. Step away.

Magic crit is garbage anyways especially compared to physical crits.

But what I was saying is there are atmas that give straight +40% dmg. +50 mab is almost as much that usually.

How much the physical atmas help out are kinda hard to math out (especially without knowing all the ones you used) but they actually help the most when your dmg is the worst oddly enough. And only RR would come close to adding that much in any situation you'd even bother using physical

You still haven't explained why it's not on BG or why it took a full month after everyone else released dat minings to "find" those spells. Or that it could just be some weird lame hate thing lol.

Isn't utsesmi: san still in the dats /trollface?

I am just going to assume that English is not your first language because there is absolutely no possible way that any person of average intelligence and command of the English language could possibly have this difficult a time understanding something so simple.

I don't have to explain anything. You have a list of spells found before the update. The very next update all those spells "scheduled" to be released were. Seriously. You should just stop.

And at any point has utsusemi: san been assigned a level for ninja? /whatafreakingidiot

I'll let Perg school you on this one. I can only hand one ridiculous conversation with you at a time.

You've actually never really used Predator Claws against NM's like Briarius or Glavoid have you?

I never said anything about PC being good or bad just that the atmas help magical more... like before magical didn't really compare to physical 99% of the time. Now it's helped close the gap

Also I haven't seen it on either since the updates since those are rather weak nms now. I mean ***people solo briarius. And yes the weaker the mob is the better PC will get thanks to pdif especially as you close the lvl gap.

Ok ok, I'll step in Sara. Seems I been posting a lot on FFXIAH forums lately!

Dasva, you're pretty much wrong on every point in the last few posts. In fact you got it backwards. The stronger the target, the more Pred Claws will pull ahead. Almost every single NM in the game has some form of magic damage reduction. I hear people claiming these 5k Heavenly Strikes, but only ever on normal monsters. How many NMs have you done 5k to? Not many I bet.

If you haven't tried VV+RR+GH atmas with Pred Claws, please just don't even reply. I've tried MM+Beyond+Ultimate with 5/5 Heavenly Strike, I know what it's capable of. You don't seem to have any clue what Pred Claws is capable of, judging by your posts. I've done side-by-side comparisons with SMNs, using Pred Claws on the same NM they are using Heavenly Strike on. (Before you criticize the SMN I was comparing with, be aware that they have a Lv90 Nirvana and were one-shotting Ephemerals with it previous to the NMs.) Please just go out and try it before you stick your foot in your mouth again. Make sure you bring your Sacrifice Torque, too... too many Summoners neglect it on physical BPs.

Actually I didn't say that anything about predator claws itself. In fact every mention of PC I've said that I wasn't talking about the BP itself but how much atmas help it vs helping magical ws and how the fact that it helps close the gap between them.

I also said the physical atmas would help more the stronger the mob. Ie crits help alot more on mobs you have lower pdif on VV helps alot more on the mobs you can use all the str on etc. Again I was evaluting the strength of the atmas not the blood pacts themselves

The reduction from magic BPs can be quite large depending on the NM, my wind blades did 2k~ to kukulkan with MM/gales when it should have done 3k~3.3k like it does with normal mobs.

Back when I had almost no good SMN atma, I used stout arm+ambition against Durinn and stout arm alone upped my predator claws dmg by a considerable amount, I used to be barely hitting 1k on the harder NMs but with stout arm alone It went up to 1.5~1.7k

Ya know I've been noticing alot of nms taking less magical ws dmg too even ones that I can nuke fine... is it some weird specific gimp like that to counter the potential those things have? Especially since they ignore defensive and most mobs don't have mdt/mdb

I founds more



I don't think I've fought more than 1-2 NMs in abyssea where Sanity's heavenly strike did less than 4,000 damage, and we've duo'd half of the damn expansions, You just need the right build, atmas and gear.

she uses minikin/Beyond/ultimate iirc. I'll stick to Magical Bloodpacts on everything short of NMs that just flat out have a literal MDT (like Wyrms) for now, thought i acknowledge PC's uses.

But predator claws is basically the SMN version of say Aero V to a BLM, sure its good damage, no shame in using it, But you should be using Blizzard V, cause its superior on almost everything.

First, Licorice are normal mobs and not NM's. Also, flans take extra magical damage so that is a bad example. And the damage on the Bugard, while impressive is likely only the set bonus on SMN AF3 kicking in because there is absolutely no possible way to do that much magical damage outside day/weather bonuses and an MB. Minax is also a pretty low NM as well. The other Screen shot you gave was on a normal mob too, and with the set bonus. What you aren't realizing is that on those same mobs Predator Claws would hit for over 12k if the bonuses kicked in as well.

No one loves Shiva and Heavenly Strike more than me. (She's my favorite avatar!) But I use both her and Garuda a lot and I know where they shine. On *average* you are going to get better numbers on Predator claws for *most* NM's. I honestly don't think that you guys have really geared up properly and used GH+VV+RR and seen Predator Claws true damage potential. Heck, even Chaotic Strike will put up crazy numbers as well. So many NM's take reduced magical damage that it's hard for HS to put up big numbers.

This doesn't mean that there aren't NM's where Heavenly Strike is superior. As I said before, they are both great pacts and SMN's should be adapting to the situation and using both.

is mp not an issue using rr/vv/gh?

Not really if you have the gear to make an avatar free/almost free, then you just have to fall back on spell refresh, convert, siphon and temp items to keep mp up.

Hmm I wouldn't compare predator claws vs Merit BPs to Aero V vs Bliz V, it's not as simple as that.

I got RR last night, and i'm really impressed with it, but now I have to decide wether magic damage will beat physical against whatever i'm fighting. Shits situational yo.

vs VT and above frigatebirds in abyssea-misareaux:

MM/atma of noxious fang, 5/5 grand fall, 100 avatar TP and this


did 3.5k, does around 3.3k without capped TP. same applies for MM/gales with 5/5 wind blade.

MM/RR predator claws, tried it a couple of times and there were some non crits for 1.7k-2k, then did 3.6k

So with RR alone, it managed to equal my magic BP, while there's still some chance of physical not doing so great, it's capable of matching or even doing better than magic.

But I find it silly to say one is better than the other, i'll swap atmas around to fit the situation. While i'll mostly be using magic BPs, there will be times when magic damage isn't the best option and physical is more favourable.

Usually MP is not an issue for me. Under normal conditions I have a 3mp/tick refresh with Garuda out. If you have any source of outside Refresh you are absolutely fine. Self Refresh from /RDM or Sublimation plus Siphon should also keep you squared away on MP. The only times I've run into MP problems are on solo attempts that take a very, very long time or if you are low-manning something and you have to do a lot of curing and DD. In the latter case though, I'd expect to have some kind of Refresh. One of my good friends in game is a BST and when we duo NM's I pretty much always go rr/vv/gh if physical damage is necessary.

Well said.

Congrats on RR by the way. It really does open up new possibilities for SMN. Pairing it with VV (or another STR atma) really improves the damage. I was pretty adamant about using Heavenly Strike until I was able to pair up RR with more DD atmas. The 3rd lunar abyssite is what really made me see that our physical side was just as effective as our magical again.

I look forward to trying some of these combinations out.

I myself have been experimenting with Ducal Guard/MC/MM when soloing. Sure I dont always kick out the biggest numbers but there are many NMs you can kill without even having to worry about recasting the avatar. For example, Lord Varney, Whiro & Fear Gorta are a few I recall trying. Also took down Tungi, but did have to recast pet everytime he 2hrd. Also its a handy combination when low-manning and main tanks die.

Certainly there are plenty of options, it all depends what you are trying to accomplish.

A) I don't believe that, I can see PC doing ~8k/9k with Set bonus, probably 10k or matching what i posted on proper mob, but 12k is pulling a number out your butt. While i do not doubt the power of predator claws, it certainly has the absolutely amazing ability to surprise me, i will not hold my breath in anticipation for a screenshot of such high numbers (Though I will Happily accept proof, If only to boost SMN e-peen in general)

B) Eyeballing an Average does not make it an Average, Magical Bloodpacts are remarkably reliable, you see, A steady, high number, where as Physical Bloodpacts are HORRIBLY subjected to Random numbers, including the oh so popular Whiff (~500 DMG) to the WTFBBQ(5k~) numbers. This hasn't changed since 2005, Every summoner knows those woes all too well.

C) I Have indeed played with VV/RR/Apoc(Triple Attack gives much higher damage spikes), It was impressive, I am not here to denounce that in anyway. I'm simply saying that on mobs that don't flat out resist Magic, the Magical BP's don't only produce consistently higher numbers, they are less subjected to "Whiffing" as Magical Bloodpacts are very accurate with proper skill.

Now, I feel it overly neccessary to repeat the very first post i made in this thread that went completely ignored outside of 1 man. Yes, Both Bloodpacts have their situations, My only point is that on mobs that don't purely ***over magic damage, You're better off With Heavenly Strike, when i read this thread i got the distinct impression several people were believing that PC with RR/VV/whatever was the BESTEST COMBO EVUR, Which is the only thing I'm denoting. Its great, not the best though, Situational is situational, hell even the post you quoted i said "On mobs that just don't flat out resist magical damage", A.K.A mobs that ***over magic damage.

My point was quite a few people in this thread seem to get the idea that RR/VV and Predator claws will be the OMGBBQWTF BEST COMBO EVUR, and it wont be. Does that apply to you? no, probably not, The rest of my post won't be directed at you from this point on either btw.


Oh well, anyway.

The Aero V and Blizzard V Comparison fits quite well if you ask me, Cause just like there are some mobs that Resist Magical BPs, and Physical will be better... theres some mobs that resist Blizzard V and Aero V might be preferable, so the BLM would adapt. But it goes to say on anything where Blizzard V isn't flat-out resisted, Blizzard V is better. I could have said "Fire V" (The second most powerful single-tiered Elemental (I~V) nuke, but you see my point)

Again, What it means in Summoner terms is that for Anything that doesn't flat out resist magic, The Magical Bloodpacts (Namely, Heavenly Strike) is better. Using mediocre BP/atma combos (Grand fall?) Doesn't mean Predator Claws is better, its simply doing it wrong.

Ultimate/Minikin/Beyond will put out the best number as well as keep your MP pool high, If you want absolute numbers im relatively certain Ult/Bey/Bay is best, or depending on day, Atma of the Frozen Fetters(IIRC?). This is made better by the ability to give your avatar an additional 200% TP every couple minutes with that Mana-Cede ability or W/E (100% if you don't have the Empyrean+2 Piece, 150 with Empyrean+1) Which greatly boosts your Magical Bloodpacts, but have no impact on Physical.

So yah, I think my analogy was just fine. It just took some analyzing to see what i was trying to say, I spelled it out though :|


My hands hurt now, I wonder if people will still act like i'm trying to say Predator Claws sucks, When in fact every post past the one i posted above was basically a nicer parroting of exactly the same point I'm trying to make. Both BP's are good, but one is Better than the other for general purposes.


FYI Here's my original post

A. No. It's the number the Perg gave himself. Go back and read the threads. And I'll take your silence as admission, as I clearly explained away each of your screen shots. Using a Licorice? Really?

B. And any Summoner who uses the correct atmas and has good gear knows that P Claws is not the same as it was in 2005. Of course you have the occasional whiff but it is not as random as it was pre-Abyssea. I would also remind you that magical pacts can have resists as well. And you are just eyeballing yourself so I do not know where this argument is coming from. If you want to go out and run hundreds of tests comparing the 2 pacts then be my guest. If not, and I'm assuming you won't, then your observations are also just that - observations.

C. This statement proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. We've already gone into detailed explanation of why Triple Attack/Double Attack procs add very little damage to blood pacts. I'm not going to rehash it again. Go back and read both my post and Perg's. You are FAR better off adding Gnarled Horn as your third atma. Those huge damage spikes you see are NOT triple attack procs. They are ALL critical hits.



I thought that you were capable of understanding that this was a nuanced discussion but if you're boiling down what we are saying to "OMGBBQWTF BEST COMBO EVUR" then there really isn't much point trying to have a discussion with you. You won't be able to grasp what we are saying.



No. It's a terrible analogy. All blizzard spells are inherently more powerful than aero spells. By making that comparison you are implying that all things being equal, Heavenly Strike is more powerful than Predator Claws. Just about everyone knows that is blatantly false. Further, the way you used the analogy also points to that meaning. It is patently false.

The next part of your post is pretty much universally inaccurate but I did want to point out this:


This is false. You're better of using MM for damage. Avatars will hit a MAB cap and thus the extra INT from MM will lead to more damage.



Oh the irony. You do realize that that is EXACTLY what I am saying. Please find a single post where I claimed that you were saying P.Claws sucks. (Hint. You won't be able to). I've just been arguing the exact opposite of what you are saying. I think P. Claws is going to do better damage for you in general. If you were actually geared properly and used the right atmas you would see why it is so good on most NMs.

You also fail to take into account that a large majority of all NMs have some type of MDB or - MDT trait. This is just a well known fact. It doesn't need to be some ridiculous -50% trait for it to be important to this discussion. Most NM's, however, are still subject to critical physical damage. That is why I say you're generally going to have better results with P. Claws -assuming you know how to pick the right atmas.

And again, do not claim that I am saying something I have not. I do not underestimate magical pacts in the least. Based on the numbers you've given in your posts, my Heavenly Strikes tend to do more damage than yours. Even knowing that, I still use P Claws on a lot of NMs.

The damage potential of p.claws is higher. (I would hope that we can at least agree on that.) The question boils down to, will you crit enough? If you aren't crit'ing a majority of the time, then Heavenly Strike is going to win. If you are, then PC is going to win. It's that simple. That is all this whole conversation really boils down to. You have not used the correct atmas to allow Garuda to crit enough.

I think we are also disagreeing because I am probably thinking more about tougher NM's like zone bosses, caturae and tier 1/2 echelon trophy NMs. You are basing your numbers on normal mobs and NM's like Minax Buggard. The higher tier the NM, the less damage they are going to take from magic (generally speaking). Critical damage is better on mobs such as those.

I am well versed in the strengths and weaknesses of all of these pacts. You could stand to look at some damage formulas and testing in other threads however.

I'll assume you're talking about me with the "mediocre atma combo/BPs"

I don't have beyond yet, my most powerful combos for magic BPs are either MM/gales or MM/noxious fang.

you're trying to argue heavenly strike is hugely superior to the other merit pacts simply because of one atma, I merited wind blade and grand fall because A.)shiva sucks without heavenly strike B.) I'm not giving up wind blade since garuda is my most effective avatar both inside and outside abyssea (Free from gear etc.) And having wind blade and heavenly strike together is a bad elemental spread, you're screwed if you're up against an ice type mob.

Grand fall allows me to do good damage against ironclad NMs, which I do often with friends, making it far easier to solo them too.

Heavenly strike isnt the only merit BP capable of hitting those high numbers, with MM/gales/ultimate wind blade should be hitting 4.5-5k easily.

Your point on mana cede, if you merit a BP to 5/5 you only need 75% TP to cap with af3 legs, and in my opinion, if you lower a 5/5 BP because of caller's pendant/af3 legs and mana cede, you're gimping your nuke strength, because when mana cede isn't up your nuke potency when your avatar is fresh isn't as strong, and you have to allow your avatar to get TP to cap. It allows me to spam nukes every 45 seconds with maximum potency most of the time.

I would appreciate you not saying i'm "doing it wrong" because im not a shiva bandwagon smn, I consider myself a very capable smn and I think saying "you should merit shiva cuz she does teh omgzorz dmg" is doing it wrong. Each to his own when it comes to merits and avatar choice.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe physical are superior to magic at all, from further testing with it I know RR is pretty inconsistent compared to nuking.

just to clarify, blizzard spells are only stronger on blm because of the mp/tier system the spells follow. since all smn magic bp's are the same level/mp cost they all have the same base damage. avatars might have diff traits, but the bp damage is the same.

A) Pergatory? him? I'll definitely have to confirm that. Do please link the threads, As i say in all my arguments over this board, If I'm wrong I'm more than happy to admit it I only demand proof. round-about is fair play.

B) The problem with "Eyeballing" Physical Bloodpacts and "Eyeballing" Magical Bloodpacts is a big difference. For instance, Magical Abilities are remarkably reliable. They don't have wide level of Variances, If your Blizzard IV does 3,200 Damage on an NM, if you cast it again in the same gear, It'll do the Same Damage. The same goes for Avatar Bloodpacts, If you use Heavenly Strike with Same Gear/Atmas (Say, TP too for arguments sake) it's going to do the same damage over and over on the same mob. It'll vary in slight numbers from mob to mob, But it will not Vary with Same Gear/TP Values on the same mob (Bar a mob maybe putting shell up). On the OTHER hand, Physical Bloodpacts, as akin to Weaponskills, All have wide variances for High/Low Numbers, Random factors (like the critical-hit Multiplyer) Etc etc, Allowing them to be much more random.

I Do go on.

What this means in the simplest terms i can put, You can more or less predict Magical damage to the closest 100 After 1 Unresisted nuke, because Magical damage is resisted in %'s, 1/2 Resist, 1/4th resist and so on, So while there is a hint of randomness, it is predictable. While Weaponskills High/Low Numbers are known, they are much more difficult to predict, making Eyeballing unreliable, where as you can shoot off 1 Nuke and, So long as Day/Weather are not present, and no M.Crit.Rate gear is on, You will know your Number for that NM. Where as with a Weaponskill, Or Physical BP, you can hit 500~6,000 (See <E-peen Numbers>) I do not doubt the power of predator claws, But if you Continue to use selective reading and terrible comprehension of game mechanics i will assume your Ignorance as a wall i cannot penetrate with logical argument.

So While Here (for you) I will not Deny that Predator Claws will have a higher damage possibility, Sometimes its not about absolute epeening, Its about reliable heavy damage, Heavenly Strike offers this, You'll have your normal 95% Accuracy rating with it if your gear is any good, And while the same can be said for Predator claws, If you know your math on multi-hit weaponskills you can see even with 95% Accuracy across 3 hits there is a higher room for failure or damage spikes/Damage lows. Predator Claws is Magnificent, I don't see why you think I'm saying its not, I'm simply saying Heavenly Strike is on many mobs not only more powerful (on Averages, not absolute) but also more reliable, You will get resisted, its inevitable, But theres a better chance for a high-Average with HS then there is PC. Does that make PC BAD? No. Should you feel bad for using it? NO! Should you NEVER us it? No. Is Heavenly Strikes Better? Depends on what you want.

I look at Heavenly Strike as a Solid high damage number with potential on every mob. It is a static number, only varying mob to mob (Again, Once you have your baseline You will know what to expect on the mob) where as Predator Claws you will hit your highs and lows, It will wow you and it will disappoint you more than HS. Which also means it will pop out higher numbers than HS on Occasion, but also pump out Fail-numbers. I would think in the long run, It'd be very close but I'd like to think when you average out your Damage, Thanks to the remarkably reliable numbers or Magical Abilities and the undenyable randomness Physical Abilities (Weaponskills, Everything) have in general it would come close to break even or HS on top. So, As a show of Faith I can of course show when my opponent has a point, Something I fear you lack just judging by all posts you've made in this thread to this point.

C) Perhaps,

I will say Kudo's on Ignoring my Mana-Cede argument as well, I so anticipated that one, I am saddened by your not mentioning it...
If i missed anything do point it out. I enjoy these intellectual quarrels! Now to adress this fellow.. __V__

No no, Of course you're not a Bandwagon Shiva SMN, you're a bandwagon garuda SMN, Do not suger coat it.

First off my simple man, The Reason Heavenly Strike is better is because Atma of the Beyond comes with Both 30 MAB, and 30Ice Damage, I know math is hard but As you can plainly See with Atma of the Gales, It only offer 30Wind Damage, Meaning if you wanted the Extra MAB that Heavenly Strike would get from Beyond (30) You'd have to sacrifice another Atma, Something You would have free to further boost Heavenly Strike.

I'll simplify that as i have a tendency to not word things properly

60 > 30.

Or

Gales = 30Wind-Damage.
Beyond = 30Ice Damage + 30 MAB.

So meaning, Heavenly Strike has an Innate 30MAB on every other bloodpact, Which is why It Is Superior to the other 75BPs inside Abyssea.

Just incase you would actually ARGUE that you can make it up with other Atmas allow me to give you this.

Heavenly Strike combo:
Beyond -30I/30MAB
Minikin - 50INT-(Roughly25MAB)
Ultimate - 50MAB

Total:

30 IceMATK
105 MAB

where as, for your Wind Blade Avatar:

Gales - 30W
Minikin - 50INT (Roughly 25MAB)
Ultimate - 50MAB

Total:

30WindMATK
75MAB

Which means, You're lacking 30MAB over Heavenly Strike, and no Atma can make up for that. Its Superior to Wind blade for that reason, not because its "Shiva". Its because its basic math, Thanks to Atma of the Beyond, shiva will have 30MAB more than the other avatars no matter what the combo (Outside of Carby cause Beyond has 30Light too, but Carby is Carby!)


Now Secondly, I'm not trying to insult you by saying "You're doing it wrong", but, you ARE doing it wrong with magical Bloodpacts. You're using Wind Blade or Grand-fall, neither of which are in question here. They are inferior to Heavenly Strike not cause of Shiva being better, but because of the fact Atma of the Beyond offers Shiva what others Avatar wont be able to make up as of Now, 30MAB/30(Element Specific) Damage on 1 single Atma. Your situation is Unique and obviously if you Don't have Heavenly strike none of my Argument holds value to you, but it does not make either bloodpact superior.

On the Mana cede "point". You don't have to give your Avatar TP to do good Damage, a fully merited 75 BP can do well enough alone right off the bat, a respectable high damage number, And GENERALLY higher than Predator Claws, though Predator claws will peak higher.

Do not assuming every SMN waits to they have 300% Tp for their pet to use Magical BPs, this is not true, While its a possibility its not true. The only thing TP does to Magical BPs is help them, Something Physical Bloodpacts lacks(I'm talking from TP, nothing else).


I fear I've already spent too much time on this, but i Love arguing, Everyone involved can learn something. Let us continue


You missed the point i was attempting to Make :(

Edit: And Please do Spoiler my Ramblings, Breaking the post apart is.. Such a 2004 Internet Cliche, Do so quote the whole thing and just respond in points. Save everyone from having to scroll.

You know, I was always told i was so good at making friends, the Sarcasm behind those words is so hilarious now. Cause something tells me you two are actually seriously angry over this and will soon be added to the ranks of the "I Hate Karbuncle" fan club. :D

Karbuncle,

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are an intelligent person, but your entire post was crap. You did not make a single useful comment in that entire rant.

I linked the threads in an earlier post. I'm not looking for them again. Search for yourself.

Your entire eyeballing argument is worthless. If you are looking at your damage you will be able to see the highs and the lows. If I am telling you that on average I'm seeing higher damage with Predator Claws, then obviously I am including the lower numbers. Further, being able to predict the damage has nothing to do with eyeballing. I based my comments on my experiences with both pacts looking at the damage that I've seen. That is what eyeballing is. It has nothing to do with being able to predict damage. The only way what you are saying would make a difference is if you are intellectually incapable of averaging damage in your head.

I honestly don't remember you mentioning Mana Cede. It really doesn't make a difference. I have a 5/5 Heavenly Strike and full Caller's +2 gear. I'm usually operating at almost max TP on Heavenly Strike. It's damage still is going to be lower than a critical P. Claws. It does nothing for your argument.

And don't you even try to call me out for poor comprehension when even the simplest of points seems beyond you grasp. You try to call me out for lack of knowledge of game mechanics? Let's make a list of the things that you did not know/do not understand.

1. How Double Attack/Triple Attack effect blood pacts
2. The optimal atma combination for magical pacts
3. The optimal atma combination for physical pacts
4. The existence of magical damage reduction traits on most NMs
5. The definition of eyeballing

Shall I continue?

And I have no problem acknowledging when my opponent has a point. The problem is you don't. You haven't written anything remotely useful since your first post. You once again ignored everything I told you about critical hit damage and percentage. You again ignore the obvious -mdt/mdb traits that most NMs have. You have yet to properly gear yourself and use PC and see the damage that we've been talking about. You ignore the fact that in Abyssea PC is a lot less unreliable.

No one is talking about epeen numbers. Again, you are incapable of understanding the simple point I am making. (That or you really have no logical response so you start making ridiculous points that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.) I've told you over and over that I am talking about damage on average. Of course HS does more consistent damage. I've not once said otherwise. But if you are consistently hitting for 2k damage with HS and are hitting for 1.5k non-crit & 3k crit predator claws, the latter is going to do more damage over the course of the fight if your critical hit rate is high enough. Yours isn't and that's why you can't see that.

Do yourself a favor. If you are going to respond, how about you try first actually understanding what I wrote. If you can't do that, don't bother. I'm tired of saying the same thing to you over and over again. Trying to attack my intelligence is futile when I clearly have a better understand of how how our avatars work and apparently a better grasp of the English language.

I was squarely on the magical pact side of things, as Perg will attest to because we've had conversations about it in the past. This last update has made me realize that physical pacts are just as capable, and often better on NMs. The reason for that is because of the 3rd atma. P Claws is heavily reliant on critical damage. Adding an additional major crit rate atma makes a huge difference. This makes the pact not as variable as you seem to think. I saw this even on easier NM's. For example, I solo the t2 vnm in attohwa a lot. I used to always use Heavenly Strike because I found I killed faster, despite Garuda being the safer choice. Now, with GH/RR/VV I kill even faster than I did before. Why? Because even though PC occasionally does lower damage, my damage output overall is now higher.

And, I'll say it again, lest you choose to ignore it once more. I'm well aware of how awesome Heavenly Strike is. I PREFER it on regular mobs. I also know how its damage gets reduced on most of the tougher NMs. If you have the proper atmas so that you can crit reliably, I think you'll do more damage with Pretator Claws on average. That is all. That is my point. Do you get it?

I don't love you anymore.

Also, I don't want to speak for Kuni, but I thought the point he was making is that while Heavenly Strike does do the most damage of all the merit pacts because of Beyond, it is not significantly greater than Wind Blade or the others. I currently have 5/5 HS and 1/5 in all the others so I really can't comment, but I think he's probably right. Gales has a 40% boost in damage. You're looking at 10% more damage vs 30MAB and some of the latter is probably subject to a cap. And for what he's fighting, it sounds like Noxious Fang and the like are the way to go for him.

Although Kuni, don't talk smack about Shiva! She is my home girl. lol And Rush > Flaming Crush!

I never liked you so that's fine. :p