Experimental Fluid (peach)

This community rep post is basically saying treasure hunter works like this:

If your current TH gear is lower than the TH applied to the monster, it reduces the TH increase proc rate.

The proc rate has a fixed rate, meaning that anything above the currently applied TH on the monster has zero effect.

This means all you need to do is keep your TH gear at the same level as the current monsters TH applied level to keep the non reduced rate.

Because of this, you'll never ever need more than TH13 in gear, because TH caps at TH14 with 2100 job points.



So recap:


TH proc rate has a cap that cannot be increased, only reduced.

Equipment TH equal to or above mobs current TH applied level allows you to stay at the capped TH proc rate.

Therefor equipment being above the mobs current TH apllied level is a waste, because it'll be the same proc rate as TH gear equal to the mobs current applied level.

I do so enjoy the TH debate that makes it's rounds every 6 months.

OK Kruel, I appreciate your interpretation of the post and I think I agree with you.

I think they failed to tell us about the effects of Fighter's Roll or critical hits on TH though.

That Fighters Roll/critical hit rate theory that Felgarr is "anecdotally" observing is just a modern iteration of the Goblin Bomb Toss myth (some of the theories are outright hilarious but people were very adamant about them at the time). Just say "oh ok" and move along.

Started bringing THF to peach power after this discussion. Its been 4 or 5? days since and I see the thf consistently proc TH10,11, and sometimes 12 if charms are wild. That being said, 0 drops from Any of my party members on those runs since implementing the THF, so anecdotally poor results.
I sacrifice one of the CORs, so its:
COR
COR or RNG
RUN or PLD
THF
SCH
GEO or RDM or BRD or SMN or BLU (Haste-r)
^ i've done it with all the above, they all bring something decent to the table as far as damage + buffs... BLU probably being the worst of the bunch but passable.

I believe my 1st run was on the 15th or 16th starting a few days behind the rest of yall, but going on just about a month now and based on what party members have said, I've only 'seen' 3 or 4 drops total, one of which I confirmed by showing him to the NPC afterward. I know its a small sample size, but assuming its 30 runs, x6 Flan each, we're talking 180 chances for 3 or 4 drops, most of which with TH4, and an increasing chunk with TH9+. It seems pretty abyssmal, but atleast the item itself isnt anything to lose sleep over... And if I'm mathing right, that's a 13% chance per run? 4/30, or a 2.2~% chance per flan, 4/180. That's really not bad at all in the grand scheme of things... when theres content out there like Shinryu. But maybe I'm missing something

As mentioned earlier, post update its Much easier to rip hate off the tank, especially if you go for skillchains (Leaden>Viper>Leaden=Dark)... which USED to guaranteed kill one but now brings them to 20-35%. This is often never worth now as you'll start getting 'Dissatisfied' rather than the tank.
The flan also seem much more accurate. When I ran 3 COR I had my 6th roll be Ninja's for the RUN, but now it doesnt seem to help at all.

Nowhere in that community rep post does it reference the TH8 cap.

I ran two sessions for the hypothesis that overcapping TH affects the proc rate beyond TH8, and here's how the results looked.

TH8 fulltimed (Chaac, RelHn+1, Perc. Egg):
Mobs killed: 855
TH9: 358 (41.87%)
TH10: 61 (7.13%)
TH11: 6 (0.7%)
about 7:30 of parse

TH16 fulltimed (Chaac, RelHn+1, Perc Egg. Herc aug TH+2, EmpFt+1, Gandring)
Mobs killed: 1147
TH9: 435 (37.93%)
TH10: 66 (5.75%)
TH11: 1 (lol%)
about 10:15 of parse

I'm not saying this is definitive proof of anything as The THF was WSing and TH can ninja-proc on WS. Ideally I would do that without the THF WSing, but I'm still trying to kill whatever I was fighting in a somewhat timely manner. However, knowing that the proc rate is affected by the delta between equipped TH and TH level on the mob, I would have expected the fulltimed TH16 set to have better results despite the known flaws within the test.

The rep first said:

"Adding Treasure Hunter+ via equipment, or other means, will not increase the rate at which the Treasure Hunter value grows, as this is a set rate".

Then said:

"However, when the value of Treasure Hunter placed on a monster and the value of Treasure Hunter on your character are different, this will cause growth rate to vary".

What other way is there to interpret that Nynja?

If the rep says TH+ via equipment or other means will not increase the rate, but then says if the value of TH on your character being different will change the rate, by process of elimination that therefor means when they referred to it being different, it has to have meant lower, considering their first statement that says you cannot increase the rate, different can only be referring to lower.

I also don't see where I said anything about the TH8 cap, I only mentioned about having your current TH level matching that of the current target mob.

Add those 2 things together, they said you cannot increase the rate, but there is a fixed rate, but you can lower the rate, that must mean:

The TH level difference between you and the mob they mentioned that can be a "different" rate, which as I said, through process of elimination can only mean lower, alongside TH having a fixed rate when not "different"/lower, has to equate to:

TH = to mob TH = the fixed rate

"different"/lower TH = lowered rate

I'm not saying they're right, just helping people with the complicated way they explained it.

The rest of their post also reinforces this too, but I'm not re quoting the whole thing, you can just read it again.

TBH we just need SE to be more clear. Those statements are contradictory to me.
How can a rate be set constant but also variable at the same time?

He said:

You cannot increase the rate at which treasure hunter grows. (pretend it's 5%, absolutely nothing can make it go to 6%)

But you can decrease it. (pretend it's 5%, you can make it 4%)

In the dumbest way possible. And I can't articulate it for you any simpler than that. There is a maximum rate, but no minimum rate. (Relative to existing level)

It's like when you tell someone there is no such thing as cold, only the lack of heat. You either understand or you don't.

I said exactly this in my first post:
"TH proc rate has a cap that cannot be increased, only reduced."

But for some reason Nynja was trying to call me out on something that wasn't even written in my post.

So my follow up post was directed at him.

So yeah, also exactly what Eiryl said.

Ahhh okay that makes more sense to me. I was honing in too much on comparing "this is a set rate" against "will cause growth rate to vary". That was bugging me.

Camate said it very corporate speaky and through a layer of translation.

Missing the mark / not understanding the target audience (not being allowed to speak plainly)

((speaking of and going offtopic, camate quit 5 years ago any NDA he signed should be over by now, I'd love if he would post in general))

Yes, there is because you are continuing to ignore the cap of TH8. If you have TH14 in gear, you can not tag TH14 on the mob, its TH8 (or 9 in certain situations, but for the remainder of this discussion I will be ignoring those situations, the cap is 8). I know you are ignoring this because you said

The proc rate of TH+ will be affected your TH and the TH level placed on the target. The dev said it vaguely and The playerbase confirmed what he meant. Tagging TH6 then fighting without TH gear yielded less upgrade results than tagging TH6 and maintaining TH6. I dont remember what the available TH equipment was back in Nov 2012, but I did note that I didnt use TK because it affected kill speed significantly.

Knowing there is a cap of TH8, atleast when tagging a mob, and knowing that the delta between your TH and the TH placed on the mob affects upgrade rate, the point is to figure out if its actually worth having TH+13 in your equipment, as you suggested, to maximize upgrade rate, or are you nerfing your DPS by going anything beyond TH+5 in equipment because the TH8 cap also affects TH upgrade rate.

If the TH8 cap affects upgrade rate, then you using the Lucky Egg, PlunArm+2, Chaac, SkulkFt+3, any TH augmented Herculean or Volte on head/body/legs, offhanding Gandring isnt any better for upgrading TH than someone just using SkulkFt+3.


Also, referencing the dev post in 2024 is kinda useless. In 2012, the most TH you could get in gear was
Thief's Knife TH+1
Asn. Armlets +2 TH+2
Raid. Poulaines +2 TH+1
Unless I'm missing something else.
The TH8 cap didnt exist, or if it did (Byrth edited the wiki Dec 2012 stating the possibility of a cap) it wasnt easily attainable.

no WS parses
TH8
Ally DPS 2941
Acc 87.31%
Kills: 105 in about 2 hours (68 sec per kill, something happened, dont worry about it)
TH9: 78 (74.23%)
TH10: 19
TH11: 1

TH13
Ally DPS 2703
Acc 96.81%
Kills: 145 in about 3 hours (74 sec per kill)
TH9: 120 (82.76%)
TH10: 47
TH11: 8

I tried to keep the DPS constant between both parties as best I could so one THF isnt having more playtime with one mob. Unfortunately, the weaker party wound up with the stronger THF, so they got a bit more playtime per mob. The weaker thf also wasnt capped accuracy, which would affect things (cant proc on whiffs). With no ninja procs though from WS, it does look like overcapping TH may help proc rate. The TH9 upgrade rate from the TH13 THF seems a lot higher than what would be accountable from TH8 THF's acc woes and party kill speed. I have to do it twice with the same THF in TH8 and TH13 both times without WS to get better evidence though.

Good data, thanks for doing this testing.

I wouldn't call it overcapping though, imo it's just matching.

Both THFs matched the TH level of the mob initially (TH8 on gear, TH8 on mob), but once it was proc'd to TH9 or 10, the TH8 THF had a delta between their TH in gear and the TH on the mob, so they suffered a penalty to the proc rate. TH13 THF continued to have the capped proc rate all the way through, so it was in line with what SE said. The greater the difference between the TH on the mob and the TH on your gear, the lower your proc rate gets.

The "Cap" is only relevant for determining how much you can apply on a single action without a proc. I don't think anyone, SE or player, has ever suggested the cap would apply in any way to the proc system.

But it is overcapping. There is an existence of a TH8 cap in regards to the proc system. Regardless if you tag a mob with TH8 or TH13, the most you can tag is TH8 and any TH+ proc will be TH9. Thats a cap. Whether it applies to the proc system and the rate of getting TH upgrades is unknown. No on can definitively say "wearing TH10 in equipment is better for procing upgrades than wearing TH5"

Once again, what Camate said in 2012 is irrelevant today. He said what he said when the most a player could get is TH+4 in equipment.

IF the TH8 cap of initial tagging also applies to proc rate, then the TH8 and TH13 thf's would have similar upgrade rates. The small sample size above shows that it might not apply, but the evidence is flawed as both thieves were working under different environments: the TH8 thf's targets didnt live as long and they had uncapped accuracy, two variables in play that would reduce proc rate opportunities. The first dataset above with the two 7+ hour parses show that overcapping might not help.

All I've presented so far are two datasets, one showing the cap applies (the 7+ hour parses where the THF was WSing therefor affecting the dataset with likely hidden TH+ procs via WS), and one showing the cap doesnt apply (two thieves in two different environments). You can say its useless, and I'd agree, but any data is better than no data for now. Atleast any data offers a baseline for people to work with.

Nynja you again made an assumption, I never once said you should be wearing TH13 gear the entire time, I just confirmed that because of the way TH works explained by the community rep, means you will never need more than TH13.

Read what I wrote again, all I was explaining was that matching the mobs current TH level will stop the reduced rate, I never once tried to claim it was the most efficient way to increase TH, and definitely was not bringing lost dps etc into this.

Again, i was only explaining what the rep was saying, nothing more.

I'm all for your testing, I hope you get something conclusive, just over the years people have used that reps post in forums etc. and confused the hell out of people, so just wanted to clear up what they were actually trying to say.

And yeah, any data is better than no data for now.

Once again, what the community rep said in 2012 is irrelevant today. He said what he said in an era where the most TH you could equip is TH+4. The only part of what the rep said that is relevant was the part of if your TH is below the mob TH level, proc rate will decrease. At that time there was either no cap on treasure hunter gear or it was not able to be reached.

Were not discussing efficiency in regards to raising TH. Smacking it with SA/TA and stacking Feint is the most efficient way to raise TH, we know this already. Were discussing if there is an increase in proc rate beyond the tagging cap of TH8 if the thf is wearing TH+5 in gear or TH+10(or more) in gear. If all you have to bring to the table is "well Camate in 2012 said", it is invalid for the aforementioned reasons that certain things that are currently in place either did not exist at the time or were not reachable.

Even then, I would still put the reason of "SE said so" to the test considering these are the same people who put Fencer+4 on war emp leg +3 when Fencer IX doesnt exist within the game.


tl;dr
When you tag a mob, regardless if you have TH8 or TH13, the initial tag will always be TH8. This implies there is some form of a cap in place limiting Treasure Hunter gear to +5 only. We also know that when the player TH is lower than the TH of the mob, the chance of a TH+ proc goes down. The goal is to determine if this cap extends to the proc system. Will having TH13 result in a greater chance of raising the TH level on the mob beyond the tagging cap of TH8 compared to the player just having TH8?

Be that as it may, his post is relevant to this topic because someone used it.

Again, all I was doing was clearing up what the rep was trying to explain for anyone who was to read it being posted in here.

Can we please just call it here at that?

Sure, Camate's post is relevant only to state that when your TH is below the TH level on the mob, your chance of an upgrade goes down. That is the only part that is relevant. But thats not what were trying to figure out. It does not answer the question if overcapping TH equipment will help increase the proc rate of upgrades.

Overcapping = having any level of TH beyond 8. Regardless if you have TH8 or TH13, when you tag a mob it starts at level 8. The whole point of excessively overcapping in the parses is to really get the data to stand out once you get to TH9, TH10, even TH11. If the TH8 cap doesnt apply to the proc system, subsequent upgrades beyond TH9 should really stand out, as the TH8 thf is getting a nerfed upgrade rate while the TH13 thf should not. This nerfed upgrade rate will get even larger once you get to TH10 and TH11. I'm not looking for precise numbers. I just want to be able to definitively answer the questions "Will wearing more than TH+5 in gear increase the chance of a TH+ proc beyond TH8", "Are my Plunderer's Armlets +3 pretty much useless now that I have Skulker's Poulaines +3". Just a straight up "yes" or "no".

If someone wants to say "you cant increase the proc rate, only decrease it via the delta of your TH and the mob TH level", then replace increase above with "prevent the decrease of proc rate declining due to the delta between your TH and mob TH level". But thats a lot of words when increase essentially means the same thing as you are increasing the proc rate from what it would be if you had TH8.

Man, I've tried to not get into a pointless debate about something I was not even a participant in, just basically a translator of a post that keeps getting reused.

I think I've tried my best to be amicable and get off this subject with you, and honestly asked you can we just call it.

But starting you're next entire rant with "sure", then proceeding to try and then argue semantics with a person who does not want to be involved in it, does not mean you agreed with my sentiment.

This is my last response, I'll just assume if you respond to this one with another few paragraphs of info about this matter, you're just debating for the sake of debating.

If you "werent a participant, just a translator", why did you state, as a fact, that "because of this, you'll never ever need more than TH13 in gear, because TH caps at TH14 with 2100 job points"?

Thought so.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

I didn't state it as fact, in my first post I wrote:

"This community rep post is basically saying treasure hunter works like this:"

Which is this thing I'm not sure you fully comprehend, it's called a quote.

The sentence you are referring to where I said you will never need anything more than TH13 comes directly after said quote, as part of the same paragraph explaining their quote, which means it is also part of me quoting them. (Or at least translating their quote).

Dude get a life, and stop trying to get the last word all the time without actually thinking through your reply.

Really showing your maturity with the "thought so" at the end of your sentence.

You see that, I quoted your thought so, so it isn't fact, it's a quote.

I wish I could say I'm curious as to what straw you're gonna grasp at next to try and keep this going, but just wish you'd stop already.

In news relevant to the fight, went back in for the first time since they changed the stats. RUN tanking w/ Battuta (going for resets w/ RD/WC) works fine and isn't much worse than before. Killspeed is definitely slower but not significantly so. CORs definitely want a madrigal now however, it isn't a free acc cap anymore. Without a mad our CORs were at 81%. Hunters Roll would work too.

It is not hard to apply TH 4 or TH 8 to everything. It also not hard to make sure everyone is killing the same one. I have missed ~7 days since Peach Power was released, always doing 6 peaches, all 3 drops we have obtained so far have occurred without TH.

It is not a hard fight, so bring a THF if you want but I have my doubts if TH works on the meat drop.


Distract III helped a lot for our group.

I dont know how English works where you're from, but "Because of this, you'll never ever need more than TH13 in gear, because TH caps at TH14 with 2100 job points" is stating something as a fact.

FFS, give it a rest already. This is so boring to read. PM him so he can ignore the PM.

What's the quickest people have taken out all 6 flans? Wondering if Xolla will have a video of them somehow zerging everything.

Ur boring to read.

Guy said "I'm not replying no more" then replies twice more lol.

Cool.

So how about them peaches? Who's got the fastest kill?

I know the sample size is too small to mean anything, but my group's gotten 6 meats since we started running, and I think only one of them dropped when I wasn't on thief. I've been swapping between thief and black mage for exemplar and we've had our best luck when I come thief. You can proc TH increases off the time you spend swinging during the charm phase, so it's not uncommon to get TH 9 or 10 on all of them before the run ends. I think it makes a difference.