Experimental Fluid (peach)

Uh huh. Anyway, you've been given some of these samples yourself and have seemingly chosen to ignore them, but between 4 different people/groups there are now over 2200 samples for each w/ TH and without. There is no appreciable difference in the number of meats (the 2200~ without TH have seen 6 meats, the 2200~ with TH have seen 5). I know other groups (like Martel) have some data as well but I haven't included it here because 1) it isn't mine to share and 2) he mentioned not all of his were with TH, so it's hard to separate.

Again, so far there is 0 difference. This could change in the next 8000 samples but as of right now there's no reason to believe it does anything, and there's absolutely no reason to believe it does something big.

As of right now I'll continue to live by the same rule as for Sortie: TH4 is free and there's no reason not to use it whether it works or not. Wasting time stacking TH beyond that? Probably not.

Also worth noting, your tenuous hypothesis about TH working because the monsters never go unclaimed or whatever doesn't really matter. Monsters going yellow isn't what wipes TH; TH is wiped after the monster goes completely idle. I'm not sure how rigorous the testing methodology to determine this was but wiki even claims that TH remains on an active monster after the person who applied it warps out of the zone.

1.) Where have I been show these 2200 samples you speak of? You're accusing me of ignoring data, but I haven't seen it or been given it. Please share.

2.) The answer was given at an earlier Vanafest/Fanfest where the developers were asked/answered a question pertaining to TH loss. They said TH is not lost when the THF dies, but is lost when the mob goes unclaimed. (Are you asserteing that this is the case in newer or more recent content that unclaimed = no TH loss?) It's possible my answer is from Abyssea only, perhaps? Maybe that was the latest content at the time and my information is outdate. It's certainly possible...but I have seen no official statement since that time.

Do we know if this rule is universally applicable to all content? My understanding is that if a mob goes yellow (unclaimed), your THF's next TH proc will be TH9 (with TH+5 in gear).

Also, an easy mechanism for verifying such a test, is to compare TH0 runs (no THF) with THF8 runs (dedicated THF). I doubt G.Meat uses a separate category of drop-type than the one SE has already shared with us. If you're saying G.Meat has it's own special drop rate that is unaffected by TH, I respectfully decline to believe that assertion. I would like to be proven wrong and would happily parse more data if given the chance.

(I try my best to only bring a dedicated THF but many folks are only concerned about the 60k Exemplar Points and that skews the volume of data towards NO TH).

You're conflating a monster going yellow with a monster going completely unclaimed/idle/wiping its enmity table. A monster's name going yellow doesn't set the monster to an idle state. You can easily test this yourself by getting 2+ mobs, applying TH, letting one go yellow, and reproccing TH: if your stacks didn't reset, you did not lose TH.

Now do this again after letting them go idle. Your TH stacks will be reset as expected.

The question isn't whether Meat itself has its own drop category, the question is whether the personal drop slot that the meat loads into is affected in any way by Treasure Hunter. As of right now, there is no evidence to suggest that it is. Even going from 0.1% to 0.9% would show an appreciable difference in total number of meats over time. 2200 for each set isn't enough to confirm that it doesn't but it is enough to start suggesting it.

The only outlandish claim I've seen when it comes to meat drops was from Sechs. I'm not calling him a liar, but I do find it hard to believe that a single guy got 12 meats out of 15 runs. This would also suggest a couple of other potential permutations on the TH theory:

A) TH does work, but only one meat can drop from a BC to one person out of six.

B) TH does work, but only for the person applying it. What job is this mythical man with 12 meats?

I would lean toward B in this wacky world of abundant meat since the drop distribution is extremely suspect. This would also somewhat explain why samples from groups using a THF aren't seeing big gains, though it still wouldn't really since that's a large discrepancy in total meats.

I understand where you're coming from. I personally consider the THF being a dedicated member of the party to be worth the effort, which is a position that often fill myself. On two occasions where folks insisted I was wasting time bringing a THF, they both got a meat (and I proc'ed TH10 and TH11, quickly with Fighters/Rogues Rolls and a Crit Hit+60% TP set).

I understand where you're coming from. You are right about the yellow (unclaimed vs returning to idle state). Also, I respect your opinion, but I personally think that OnlyFlans/Peaches is an avenue where it's worth expending a little more Thief-effort).

I didn't mean to come across too assertive here. I do think that we can have different opinions, and that's OK.

This fight is the perfect example of "always take THF"

You can only do it once (a day), even if you don't believe it works you lose nothing from taking thf, all the damage is done by sch and 3/6 slots are pointless.

Irrespective of the TH affecting the flans debate.... Since when did Crits increase the chance of TH proc'ing? Your post heavily implies it does;


I've never heard of this being the case before, nor is it on the wiki? https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Treasure_Hunter

I'm not calling you a liar... but I'd like to know if this is factual for my own treasure hunting in the future.

(edited double post)

Given the rarity and ease of the fight... even after they ninja buffed it last patch... I'm growing to agree that there's no reason to not take a THF. Most of the fight your charmed anyway and 1 COR can solo the whole thing once they get a decent moment uncharmed.

Are you using Aeolian to initially tag, then full timing TH+ on your single targets (obviously using the handful of JAs to increase chances)?

... Lol Negan liked the blank post mid edit

I mean yeah, it's fine. It's not like I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that TH doesn't do anything. At this juncture though I'd be surprised it if does, and I'd absolutely be shocked if it turns out it does anything truly meaningful. I'd rather just let people get EP on the jobs they care about.

That is another fair viewpoint. The armor is so dogshit, who cares if it drops in the first place.

Get the exemplar on the job you want.

Me too! But it is what it is.
We don't have TH in our runs tipically and if you ask me I'm very skeptic TH would have any influence on the Personal Loot drop system, any implementation of it.

Oh and as for my static member's claim, he definitely got at least a couple of pieces of meat because he has the armor and I've seen him use the experimental fluid.
Other than that it could be whatever. It could be him lying or having fun trolling us, whatever, it's not like I demanded a screenshot everytime.

None of the rest of us got even a single meat in ~16 runs so far (he wasn't with us yesterday btw)

Sure, I'd be happy to explain my experience and I'd like to hear yours as well.

Situation: I farmed Dyna-Windy Wave 2 Boss for Volte-Body farming all leaders and proc'ing TH every opportunity for 4 months.

Results: I proc'ed TH12 against the Wave 2 boss 22 times and TH14 8 times. (I got the body on 1/30 on a TH14 proc).

The fastest TH procs where TH9,10,11 in 14 seconds from engaging.
The shortest TH8 to 14 duration was about 2min, 23 seconds total, from engaging. (The longest was 40+ minutes, all fighting Fii Pexu the Eternal).

Again, this is just my anecdotal experience but:

1.) I believe critical hit rate helps TH proc'ing so as a THF, I will TP in as high crithit rate as possible with TH+5 gear.
2.) We know that TH procs only occur during the main-hand swing.
3.) Now, I suspect this is approaching bug territory but I'll share it: I believe that TH procs from Fighter's Roll double-attacks can occur on either main or sub hand. (Rogue's roll, just further increases crit hit rate chance, as well).

You don't have to buy into this or believe me, but this was my experience farming Wave 2 Dyna, leaders and bosses for volte gear, recording TH levels and drops.

Please note: I have also heard some people say a different approach, which is to proc TH9, then increase TH in gear by 1, then proc TH10, increase TH in gear by 1, etc etc.....I have not tried this as I felt it was just too cumbersome, but I'd love to hear if other folks have tested this and what their test samples where.

Edit: Updated the fastest time for TH14 I got. (2m23sec) and TH9-11 in 14 seconds:

The armor is great for magic tanking which is a large part of the game right now.

If you believe these are true, why bother using Fighters Roll ( or mentioning it) in regards to quickly proccing TH? It's first-hit only right? DA adds no additional proc chances unless I'm misunderstanding your logic. A more appropriate roll would be Blitzer's, to reduce your attack delay (main hand swing recurrences). A minmax scenario would also include single wielding.

I've also never heard of any proof that critical hit rate increases TH proc rate. I think I understand why you conclude that. it almost sounds like a flawed assumption you're making in the sense that because Sneak Attack and Trick Attack (which do crit) have a greater chance to apply TH proc levels, so normal critical hits must also apply proc chances too. I know you said anecdotal, but yeah

The way I approach stuff like this is opportunistically. Does it hurt for a THF to have an AE set with +TH in it? No not really, they engage pop AE to tag everything with TH, then resume the fight as normal. If no THF, does it hurt a RDM to have TH4 in a Diaga set they toss out after the tank has hate? Nobody should be focusing on "building TH", but if we can get it for free, then there is no harm in doing so.

I absolutely agree that you should always universally apply TH to things if you're unsure if it works on the intended drop, because why not, TH4 Is accessible by everyone and it's better to apply it and it does nothing vs not applying and it could dou something. Going out of your way to bring THF because of suggestions that it actually does work is entirely different, which is exactly what Proth was saying. Nevermind that there may or may not be proof that suggests it does anything. Felgarr on other hand said he was confused why people were not bringing THF to the fight.

I was just curious about what Felgarr stated about his approach to TH in general, though. He just happened to add a couple of extra notes about TH that I had not heard before, even seems to conflict with the information on the TH page itself. I'm not talking about whether to or not apply it in the first place

Your claim that Fighters can allow you to proc TH on an offhand swing can be tested. Test it, and come back with a screenshot of a TH proc on an offhand swing.

TH proccing with crit can be tested also. Wear the same amount of TH gear in two sets, add a bunch of crit to the other one, get Rogue's roll, and do 1,000 or 10,000 swings in each one on the same mobs, record the number of TH procs, and return with the results.

Nobody is going to be convinced of how an obscure mechanic works based on sample sizes of 30 and "believe me, bro, I saw a TH proc once and I got a rare drop"

We are all just throwing things to the wall and see what kinda sticks right? When I was farming the Wave 2 boss in Windy, I had 2 CORs and we needed to come up with 4 sets of corsair rolls that would benefit a COR+THF party combination. I chose Sam/Chaos/Fighter's/Rogue's rolls. Yes, I could change Fighter's with a different roll, but this was in 2020, I don't know how high Master Levels where, probably not very high at all. I couldn't justify many other rolls, but as a player, I like that Crit hits also have a chance to interrupting Mob/NM's casting spells.

I'm sorry, but I don't have a better justification for Fighter's roll, and I couldn't think of a a better alternative, when the objective was to farm gear (more so than ultra fast kills).

Edit: I think you are misunderstanding my logic. I am asserting, anecdotally I observed really fast TH procs in situations where Fighter's roll and Crit-hit rate 80%+ was used. Working backwards from this situation, I suspect that my TH procs were just "lucky" ...OR that Fighter's roll DA introduces a TH proc in the offhand. I actually went through my logs and history and shared my original observation in discord from 2020:

I like Saevel's explanation that a TH proc, results in a different distribution table (list of percentages) for the various drop-combinations that can occure for a given mob. See here:

Treasure Hunter Demystified Thread

So each TH proc results in a different set of drop rates that equal 100%. Much like the graphs you see here for Treasure Hunter, you'll see a set of drop rates for items that are Rare, Very Rare, Super Rare, etc:

BG Wiki Treasure Hunter

But everyone, including SE asserts that there is a diminishing return for TH14. Let's see what that is:



Now, you can graph that relative increase is small, but still a signifcant overall increase from TH14 vs TH4. Yes, diminishing return. But an increase from 0.1% to 1.5% is still a 15x higher increase. Make sure you understand both sides of the "diminishing returns" statement. Knowing how to quickly proc TH, via crit-hit rate or differentiating TH levels between player and mob, can give you the best of both worlds (highest drop rates and fastest proc'ing ability):



To the folks who think proc'ing TH is boring and just don't want to wait for TH10+, then I'm sorry, I can't help you there. :)

Based on your testimony alone I've started bringing THF to my Peach Power runs, not that its good or anything but simply because I have no reason not to. The content is so braindead easy with even 1 COR, and before this I had been bringing 3. No drop yet and I've run it since 3 days after it launched, every day.. but we'll keep trying. Based solely on people telling me post run that they got the meat, I believe I've only had 4 or 5 drops for my party(s), in 20 something runs. One person was 1/1

I dont believe TH proc rate relative to the delta of TH on mob and TH+ gear on thf beyond the cap has ever been fully validated.

Eyeball tests dont count.

There was a guy (Melliny?) who did a test about that.
It seemed to indicate a very slightly increase in the TH+ proc rate by equipping more TH gear but the sample, while not small, wasn't large enough and the difference not large enough to be sure it wasn't well within the margin of acceptable error.

So yeah, alas it wasn't a conclusive test at all.
Personally I do have a TH8 DD set, a TH8 DT set and even a fullTH set (where I equip all the TH gear I have) but I think I haven't used that in... years?
These days if I wanna proc TH I just use my TH8 DT set and that's it.

I understand why Nynja thinks that but SE said it here in 2012, that the TH difference between the player and the mob can cause the TH proc rate to vary:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/27974-TH-Procing?p=377001#post377001

However, I don't do it because it's impractical, despite the fact that it sounds like SE is being really cryptic. It sounds like SE wants us to wear TH+5, proc TH9, wear TH+6, proc TH10, wear TH+7, proc TH11, etc etc ....this sounds impractical to me but I would do it if SE's wording were more clear. Someone should ask for clarity in that post because it would help us understand how to properly play THF for TH procs.

To the naysayers: If SE comes back and says "Yes, you can increase TH proc rate by increasing your TH+ in gear as you proc TH...but it's a 0.1% increase!" ....I'd still do it, just because it's mechanic that they've will hopefully shed light on and we can be certain we're playing THF (for TH procs) correctly.

No?
I don't really get how you're thinking that honestly.

You didn't read the link I shared from the post, that you are quoting. Here, I took a screenshot and underlined the specific part for you. In the meantime, thank you for confirming that the reply button works, I guess?

It's long been understood that having more TH gear increases the rate at which you proc higher TH.

It's never been understood that having DA or crit hit rate changes TH rates.

If you want people to believe you, do some testing. Randomly throwing ***out there and saying them as if they're facts because you noticed something on one run once is insane.

The comparisons between TH4 and TH14 make no sense. Very few people are bringing TH4 to Dynamis [D] and you aren't getting TH14 on every mob in Dynamis, so your better comparison would be between TH9 or TH10 and TH14, which is not even double the drop rate. If you want to compare to Peach Power, are you getting TH14 on every single flan? If not, then TH4 -> TH14 comparisons are also nonsense.

I think the TH level you're willing to wait for depends largely on what you're doing. If you're farming trash mobs in Dynamis, you're going to make less gil because of killing fewer mobs than you will by increasing the drops from 7 to 8 on a single mob you spent 60 seconds swinging on until you hit TH12. If you REALLY want specifically Volte body, sure spend an extra 3 minutes fighting the boss and whacking it with a THF, but for most people the Volte body is not that great and they'd rather just spend those 3 minutes farming for gil and RP.

I personally don't think there are a large amount of items/events in this game where spending extra time trying to proc TH all the way up to 13/14 is worth it when you can just spawn/kill another mob or spend your time more effectively elsewhere. TH9-11 is generally my goal and I've never seen a TH14 proc in my entire life. Maybe I just don't have enough crit in my set.

We already knew this. The playerbase tested this back before that dev post, however it was before the soft cap of TH+8.

Tagging TH6 on a mob then going back to TH3 showed lower chances of upgrading to TH7+ vs tagging a mob with TH6 and leaving TH6 in gear equipped. That dev post told us nothing we didnt already know because they refused to mention if equipping TH6 or higher in gear would raise the upgrade proc rate beyond the soft cap of TH8.

Pretty sure the only person that tested that (whether +TH gear increased proc rate) was Melphina on this forum and the results were inconclusive due to needing an absolutely massive data set.

Trying to find it now but:
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/54585/treasure-hunter-demystified/4/#3519339

She says "TH + 10 - 11 versus TH + 11 - 13 after 700 swings" and "You won't see procs increase in any noticeable fashion wearing TH + 14 rather than just TH + 8."

If the difference isn't readily measurable in a reasonable number of samples then it probably isn't worth doing to begin with. It indicates that the difference is so miniscule that you need thousands, tens of thousands of swings just to start seeing any boost at all.

If the goal is to raise TH as quickly as possible, especially within time gated content, then I'd say wearing the extra TH+ gear beyond the 8 cap is worth it, especially once you factor in the increased proc rate via SA/TA and Feint.

Of course, that only matters if there is an increase in proc rate beyond the cap. Without knowing what "700 swings" mean, and knowing that TH can only proc on the first hit of an attack round, that can be a dataset of 700 attack rounds, or ~150 attack rounds (cut half due to dual wield, now eliminate all the triple attack procs).

Yes, the increase may be minuscule, but depending the rarity tier of what you're farming, the difference between TH4 and TH8 is also minuscule (per SE's numbers)

That's what I mean. Using SA TA Feint slows down swinging too.