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Anti-Vaccination Legislative win in California
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-23 07:54:05
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Quote: If the bible is true? It can't all be true. There's so many contradictions that if it were all true you'd have to have 300 some odd variable dimensions just to deal with the conflicts.
"The Bible" is a collection of written stories that themselves came from ancient history handed down orally from one generation to the next. The book of Genesis itself has something like four different authors, not to mention the many authors of the rest. It's not to be taken literally but neither is it a fairy tale. People similiar to those mentioned did exist and did things similiar to what was mentioned in those places. The exact details have long since been lost in time, but as a historical document it's fairly accurate when one takes into account it's primary source is oral.
Don't treat the bible as some divinely inspired document nor as a giant lie, but as a very early attempt at passing history down from one generation to the other via stories. Those people existed and did do those things, there was no divine entity involved, just mere superstition and people trying to explain the unexplainable in anyway they knew how.
Just like any work of fiction, sure there can be some truth in it, just like there's some truth in Harry Potter. But I'd argue it is a fairy Tale. Even if they believed the stuff they wrote it's still wrong on every count of mysticism.
It isn't even original though, the vast majority was stolen from other myths.
Except it's not a work of fiction. It existed in oral form for generations before it was written down. Those cities existed, those people existed, those events happened, it's historically accurate. The exact details are wrong obviously, when something is passed from father to son, mother to daughter, generation after generation, they tend to omit something or inflate something else, it's to be expected. It's simply an ancient historical document that's had a religion built up around it. Many of the events of the Bible have been correlated with other historical documents, the flood did happen and those cities were indeed destroyed, they just weren't divinely inspired.
I realize most of those like you possess a large amount of hatred directed at Christianity and you project your hatred. Such blind hatred is poisonous to you and makes any sort of rational discourse impossible.
Quote: Wait... So the writers of the bible blatantly plagiarized the work of many other myths and changed many details but that's totally okay because it was before accurate history started?
Umm what?
You realize that there are hundreds of contributors to the old testament and there is a very high likelihood some of them also contributed to what become other works. We're talking about stuff that started about 5,000 years ago and wasn't really written down until close to 2500~3000 years ago. Ancient history is called ancient for a reason.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-04-23 07:56:19
I'll write a fanfiction about our current politicians and fill it with magic and superpowers. I hope in 2000 years someone thinks it's canon.
Because everyone wants to get power over others 2000 years after they die right? That isn't how it worked. They took stories that were already old and thought to be true and molded them to their purposes. No one had wikipedia or other online sources to fact check. It was fairly easy especially when through out much of early history the bible was in original Hebrew or Latin when the common people did not speak so even if they had access to a bible they could not contradict it.
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-23 08:00:33
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »I'll write a fanfiction about our current politicians and fill it with magic and superpowers. I hope in 2000 years someone thinks it's canon.
Because everyone wants to get power over others 2000 years after they die right? That isn't how it worked. They took stories that were already old and thought to be true and molded them to their purposes. No one had wikipedia or other online sources to fact check. It was fairly easy especially when through out much of early history the bible was in original Hebrew or Latin when the common people did not speak so even if they had access to a bible they could not contradict it.
Huh?
Latin didn't exist as a language back then, hell the Hebrew they spoke would of been radically different then what was spoken during Christ's time. Those tribes didn't read or write and only had oral stories to keep track of their history, so for over a thousand years the parents told the children and as the tribes moved around those stories spread and morphed.
Are you seriously confusing ancient old testament with new testament? I realize they are often in the same physical book and that fanatical Christians like to quote from both willy nilly, but old and new testament are two radically different things. Hell the old testament is broken into multiple historical periods with each "book" having many authors and some spanning centuries. It's not even in chronological order.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-04-23 08:09:55
Latin didn't exist as a language back then It existed in Latin later in history. Clergy would be able to read it and pass that "knowledge" on to the common person. I'm not saying Latin existed at the time the bible was originally written, I am saying that it was a manipulation method used by religion to control people throughout history.
Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-04-23 08:14:29
Are you seriously confusing ancient old testament with new testament? I realize they are often in the same physical book and that fanatical Christians like to quote from both willy nilly, but old and new testament are two radically different things. Hell the old testament is broken into multiple historical periods with each "book" having many authors and some spanning centuries. It's not even in chronological order. Look. I want to be brief. I did not say the bible as we can buy it on a shelf today was written down by one guy who was trying to start a religion to control people.
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-23 08:24:19
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Are you seriously confusing ancient old testament with new testament? I realize they are often in the same physical book and that fanatical Christians like to quote from both willy nilly, but old and new testament are two radically different things. Hell the old testament is broken into multiple historical periods with each "book" having many authors and some spanning centuries. It's not even in chronological order. Look. I want to be brief. I did not say the bible as we can buy it on a shelf today was written down by one guy who was trying to start a religion to control people.
Umm sounds like that is exactly what your saying.
The KJV of the bible isn't particularly accurate, the old testament is standard but they tweaked the tone of the new testament to be more "in line" with the church as the center of the universe thing. The new testament is really just a bunch of letters from the followers of Jesus that they wrote after his death, no more and no less. The old testament existed long before Christ was born, and certainly long before the various Nicaea counsels standardized the christian faith.
Find out what the dead sea scrolls are first and realize that they were written hundreds of years before Jesus was born and before any tampering by a centralized church. Then come back and try to argue that conspiracy theory bullsh!t.
By charlo999 2015-04-23 08:28:01
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Eh... Topics dead anyway so what the hell.
I never said the bible was written by intelligent men. They could have done a much better job. Perhaps discuss a few things prior to writing to make sure they have their story straight but before we waste any time, I need to know what you believe. No point in spending time finding flaws in things you don't agree with anyhow.
Can I assume you find the bible to be the perfect word of god and everything in it is divinely inspired? Or do you have another view?
I don't understand.
You tell me you don't believe the bible because....
I ask you because why, examples, etc.
You reply with you need to know what I believe to answer your opinion?
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By charlo999 2015-04-23 08:34:57
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Are you seriously confusing ancient old testament with new testament? I realize they are often in the same physical book and that fanatical Christians like to quote from both willy nilly, but old and new testament are two radically different things. Hell the old testament is broken into multiple historical periods with each "book" having many authors and some spanning centuries. It's not even in chronological order. Look. I want to be brief. I did not say the bible as we can buy it on a shelf today was written down by one guy who was trying to start a religion to control people.
Umm sounds like that is exactly what your saying.
The KJV of the bible isn't particularly accurate, the old testament is standard but they tweaked the tone of the new testament to be more "in line" with the church as the center of the universe thing. The new testament is really just a bunch of letters from the followers of Jesus that they wrote after his death, no more and no less. The old testament existed long before Christ was born, and certainly long before the various Nicaea counsels standardized the christian faith.
Find out what the dead sea scrolls are first and realize that they were written hundreds of years before Jesus was born and before any tampering by a centralized church. Then come back and try to argue that conspiracy theory bullsh!t.
On the back of this fact. Explain how the prophecy of the Jews not accepting and killing the very person they are supposed to have been waiting and suffering for, from the Old Testament came true.
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Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-23 08:40:02
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Are you seriously confusing ancient old testament with new testament? I realize they are often in the same physical book and that fanatical Christians like to quote from both willy nilly, but old and new testament are two radically different things. Hell the old testament is broken into multiple historical periods with each "book" having many authors and some spanning centuries. It's not even in chronological order. Look. I want to be brief. I did not say the bible as we can buy it on a shelf today was written down by one guy who was trying to start a religion to control people.
Umm sounds like that is exactly what your saying.
The KJV of the bible isn't particularly accurate, the old testament is standard but they tweaked the tone of the new testament to be more "in line" with the church as the center of the universe thing. The new testament is really just a bunch of letters from the followers of Jesus that they wrote after his death, no more and no less. The old testament existed long before Christ was born, and certainly long before the various Nicaea counsels standardized the christian faith.
Find out what the dead sea scrolls are first and realize that they were written hundreds of years before Jesus was born and before any tampering by a centralized church. Then come back and try to argue that conspiracy theory bullsh!t.
On the back of this fact. Explain how the prophecy of the Jews not accepting and killing the very person they are supposed to have been waiting and suffering for, from the Old Testament came true.
The funny thing about prophecies is they can mean literally anything, twist one word here, interpret another word there, and suddenly you can prophesy an earthquake or volcano eruption. Because they rarely mention exact numbers they are impossible to falsify, and anything that's impossible to falsify is outside the realm of science which makes it of no concern to me.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-04-23 08:53:40
I guess I'll follow this tangent. Personally, the most interesting logical disconnect that I see in modern Christian churches is this idea that the canon is closed and there cannot be any more scripture, ever. The concept that all that has ever needed to be revealed has been revealed and that revelation is dead was perhaps more popular in the 1800s, but it still seems to be an ongoing thing. The Bible is racked with inconsistencies and you have a metric crap ton of sects reading the exact same books and not any of them can agree on what they mean or what is most necessary, but still claim that it's "perfect".
For the sake of an argument that the non-believers can get in on, if there is a God, and he wanted to, say, put a modern prophet-type person on the Earth, I think a vast majority of Christians would be so entrenched in their own dogmas and interpretations that they would end up rejecting him like so many of the ancient prophets in the books they claim to follow.
By Asura.Shiraiyuki 2015-04-23 09:13:51
For the sake of an argument that the non-believers can get in on, if there is a God, and he wanted to, say, put a modern prophet-type person on the Earth, I think a vast majority of Christians would be so entrenched in their own dogmas and interpretations that they would end up rejecting him like so many of the ancient prophets in the books they claim to follow.
I think that any current day prophet type of person would just tell the big guy up above to come down and bring the message himself.
Anyone that even claims to be a prophet these days will either be locked up in a loony bin, executed on the spot by radicals or start a career in stand up comedy, magic or both.
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Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-04-23 09:22:32
I don't understand.
You tell me you don't believe the bible because....
I ask you because why, examples, etc.
You reply with you need to know what I believe to answer your opinion?
I'm not doing this to explain what I don't believe. I'm doing it to point out that what you believe is wrong. I need to know what you believe to do that. There are literally thousands of denominations of christians which believe all sorts of differing things.
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-04-23 09:23:40
I guess I'll follow this tangent. Personally, the most interesting logical disconnect that I see in modern Christian churches is this idea that the canon is closed and there cannot be any more scripture, ever. The concept that all that has ever needed to be revealed has been revealed and that revelation is dead was perhaps more popular in the 1800s, but it still seems to be an ongoing thing. The Bible is racked with inconsistencies and you have a metric crap ton of sects reading the exact same books and not any of them can agree on what they mean or what is most necessary, but still claim that it's "perfect".
For the sake of an argument that the non-believers can get in on, if there is a God, and he wanted to, say, put a modern prophet-type person on the Earth, I think a vast majority of Christians would be so entrenched in their own dogmas and interpretations that they would end up rejecting him like so many of the ancient prophets in the books they claim to follow.
That's just the religious interpretation, which frankly I couldn't give a flying f*ck about. I just don't like ignorant dumb a$$'s calling one of the oldest historical documents we have "fiction". It's drenched in religious terminology because during old testament times everything was deeply entwined with religion. Remove the religious context and you get a fairly accurate history of the events surrounding that region several thousand years ago. But some people see the word "God" and just go apesh!t, maybe it "triggers" them.
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Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2015-04-23 09:24:29
Umm sounds like that is exactly what your saying. Then you're misunderstanding what I'm meaning to say. If that's because I said it poorly, that's fine.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-04-23 10:01:09
Back on topic, it looks like California is getting close to having a bill that would make vaccinations for children a forced thing. As much as I typically dislike forced government intervention and pretty much everything else California does, the risk of going too far in the other direction has me considering this to be a good thing.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-04-23 10:08:12
I guess I'll follow this tangent. Personally, the most interesting logical disconnect that I see in modern Christian churches is this idea that the canon is closed and there cannot be any more scripture, ever. The concept that all that has ever needed to be revealed has been revealed and that revelation is dead was perhaps more popular in the 1800s, but it still seems to be an ongoing thing. The Bible is racked with inconsistencies and you have a metric crap ton of sects reading the exact same books and not any of them can agree on what they mean or what is most necessary, but still claim that it's "perfect".
For the sake of an argument that the non-believers can get in on, if there is a God, and he wanted to, say, put a modern prophet-type person on the Earth, I think a vast majority of Christians would be so entrenched in their own dogmas and interpretations that they would end up rejecting him like so many of the ancient prophets in the books they claim to follow.
The problem is that all three monotheistic faiths are currently in doomsday prepping mode which plays to the masses desperately waiting for deliverance from the problems of their individual or regional conflicts. When you're poor, desperate and being played by insurmountable odds, the savior character is not only something to cling to make it through the day but winds up being a tool of the oppressor who knows that rather than fight for the *now* you'll opt for the *hereafter*, It's easier. People like easy. A selfish want manifested through groupthink.
So why would people in this position want to know more? They've been promised a glorious, blissful afterlife so long as they stay in the lines and do what they're told. Defend the faith, receive eternity. It doesn't help that the text itself goes out of its way to frown upon questioning too much lest punishment be doled out.
On the other hand, biblical scholars who have the comforts of stability look into the text with the point of view of an intellectual exercise, a means of deriving insight by playing with the historical context and backstory behind the texts as a means of better understanding the condition in which holy texts would come to be. Religion ceases to be a crutch, a means of escapism or control at the academic level and takes on more an anthropological/philosophical study.
This isn't to say that believers aren't doing theological study but at the PhD level you're less likely to be a true believing bible/torah/quran beater. At least in the typical zealot type of way we're all familiar with. It's also why many agnostics/atheists wind up in the field as well. It's about the inquiry, not the sole purpose of deriving reward.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-04-23 10:25:25
Back on topic, it looks like California is getting close to having a bill that would make vaccinations for children a forced thing. As much as I typically dislike forced government intervention and pretty much everything else California does, the risk of going too far in the other direction has me considering this to be a good thing. It will not be forced. Any fool can still leave their children unvaccinated. But only those fools who can reasonably claim a religious objection, or the unfortunate who's kids have a medical reason will be able to send their kids to public school.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-04-23 10:29:12
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
I can agree with most of that. I think most people who are religious want religion spoon-fed to them. Instead of putting a bunch of time into studying the background and roots of ancient scripture, why not find your local "one true church" and ask Pastor Bob of the 4th Chapter of the Rhode Island Espiscopalian Church what you need to know and blindly accept his answers?
It will not be forced. Any fool can still leave their children unvaccinated. But only those fools who can reasonably claim a religious objection, or the unfortunate who's kids have a medical reason will be able to send their kids to public school.
It makes it harder to generate a valid reason besides "I dun wanna" or "Herp a derp autism", so that should be good enough to prevent an outbreak.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 10:33:54
It will not be forced. Any fool can still leave their children unvaccinated. But only those fools who can reasonably claim a religious objection, or the unfortunate who's kids have a medical reason will be able to send their kids to public school.
It makes it harder to generate a valid reason besides "I dun wanna" or "Herp a derp autism", so that should be good enough to prevent an outbreak. Naw, you know what will happen:
Exemptions will be handed left and right, because feels.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-04-23 10:36:36
It will not be forced. Any fool can still leave their children unvaccinated. But only those fools who can reasonably claim a religious objection, or the unfortunate who's kids have a medical reason will be able to send their kids to public school. It makes it harder to generate a valid reason besides "I dun wanna" or "Herp a derp autism", so that should be good enough to prevent an outbreak. Naw, you know what will happen:
Exemptions will be handed left and right, because feels.
Come on, King. I'm trying this whole "optimism" thing for once, don't kill it for me too soon.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 10:37:33
It will not be forced. Any fool can still leave their children unvaccinated. But only those fools who can reasonably claim a religious objection, or the unfortunate who's kids have a medical reason will be able to send their kids to public school. It makes it harder to generate a valid reason besides "I dun wanna" or "Herp a derp autism", so that should be good enough to prevent an outbreak. Naw, you know what will happen:
Exemptions will be handed left and right, because feels.
Come on, King. I'm trying this whole "optimism" thing for once, don't kill it for me too soon. 
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By charlo999 2015-04-23 10:49:14
For the sake of an argument that the non-believers can get in on, if there is a God, and he wanted to, say, put a modern prophet-type person on the Earth, I think a vast majority of Christians would be so entrenched in their own dogmas and interpretations that they would end up rejecting him like so many of the ancient prophets in the books they claim to follow.
I think that any current day prophet type of person would just tell the big guy up above to come down and bring the message himself.
Anyone that even claims to be a prophet these days will either be locked up in a loony bin, executed on the spot by radicals or start a career in stand up comedy, magic or both.
The bible states the last prophet is john.
Revelations is written by john.
What more needs to be prophesied?
By charlo999 2015-04-23 10:50:05
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »I don't understand.
You tell me you don't believe the bible because....
I ask you because why, examples, etc.
You reply with you need to know what I believe to answer your opinion?
I'm not doing this to explain what I don't believe. I'm doing it to point out that what you believe is wrong. I need to know what you believe to do that. There are literally thousands of denominations of christians which believe all sorts of differing things.
I'm not of a denomination. I believe in the bible.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-04-23 10:50:43
Naturally I as a prophet would say that my prophecy is the last.
In the same way that the Quran claims to be inerrant yet spawned two distinct subreligions that have various interpretations because well, people are people.
By charlo999 2015-04-23 10:51:13
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »I don't understand.
You tell me you don't believe the bible because....
I ask you because why, examples, etc.
You reply with you need to know what I believe to answer your opinion?
I'm not doing this to explain what I don't believe. I'm doing it to point out that what you believe is wrong. I need to know what you believe to do that. There are literally thousands of denominations of christians which believe all sorts of differing things.
I'm not of a denomination. I believe in the bible. So what is false in the bible that you can verify?
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-04-23 10:51:20
I believe in the Song of Ice and Fire.
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By charlo999 2015-04-23 10:51:59
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Naturally I as a prophet would say that my prophecy is the last.
Lol. John doesn't say he is the last.
Got to love it when people discredit without the information.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-04-23 10:52:11
I believe in the Song of Ice and Fire.
I believe GRR is *** with us all and has the final books locked up in his safe.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-04-23 10:55:45
For the sake of an argument that the non-believers can get in on, if there is a God, and he wanted to, say, put a modern prophet-type person on the Earth, I think a vast majority of Christians would be so entrenched in their own dogmas and interpretations that they would end up rejecting him like so many of the ancient prophets in the books they claim to follow. I think that any current day prophet type of person would just tell the big guy up above to come down and bring the message himself. Anyone that even claims to be a prophet these days will either be locked up in a loony bin, executed on the spot by radicals or start a career in stand up comedy, magic or both. The bible states the last prophet is john.
Revelations is written by john.
What more needs to be prophesied? Um, where does it say that?
Edit: Just fyi, I'm the closest thing this site has to a biblical scholar. If you're going to make claims like that, be prepared to back it up with an actual quote.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-04-23 10:57:21
For the sake of an argument that the non-believers can get in on, if there is a God, and he wanted to, say, put a modern prophet-type person on the Earth, I think a vast majority of Christians would be so entrenched in their own dogmas and interpretations that they would end up rejecting him like so many of the ancient prophets in the books they claim to follow. I think that any current day prophet type of person would just tell the big guy up above to come down and bring the message himself. Anyone that even claims to be a prophet these days will either be locked up in a loony bin, executed on the spot by radicals or start a career in stand up comedy, magic or both. The bible states the last prophet is john. Revelations is written by john. What more needs to be prophesied? Um, where does it say that? It doesn't. I mean, isn't Jesus supposed to come back eventually one day?
His Reraise timer hasn't expired yet.
Quote: California anti-vaxxers, while relatively few in number, continue to wield outsize influence in the state. Over the winter, California suffered an outbreak of measles after an unvaccinated person visited Disneyland, prompting lawmakers to draft legislation designed to increase the state's vaccination rates.
But on Wednesday, state legislators could not answer a key question raised by the bill—should unvaccinated children be denied access to public schools?—after hundreds of parents opposed to mandatory vaccines for school children, according to the San Jose Mercury News, appeared before the Senate Education Committee to protest the bill, SB 277.
The bill would have done away with California's controversial 'personal belief exemptions,' which allow parents to choose not to vaccinate their children on the basis of their own personal beliefs. California is one of 20 states that allow such exemptions. More than a quarter of California schools have measles vaccination rates lower than those recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, according to The New York Times.
The bill's author, State Senator Dr. Richard Pan, a pediatrician, was forced to delay a vote in the Senate Education Committee after some of his fellow lawmakers said they would not vote for a bill that excluded unvaccinated children from public schools. Proponents of the bill spoke for about seven minutes, according to The Sacramento Bee, while opposed parents spent more than two hours arguing against it. “I think maybe some of the senators were taken aback by the ferocity of passion that they saw there, and that might have been impactful,” State Senator Ben Allen, a co-author of SB277, told the Bee.
The issue of mandatory vaccinations is contentious in California, where, according to the Contra Costa Times, more than 13,000 kindergartners are unvaccinated for personal or religious reasons. Perhaps hoping to sway public opinion, Pan and Allen penned an op-ed in The Fresno Bee titled "SB 277 protects children from horrific diseases."
Meanwhile, Pan is speaking with various stakeholders to try to find a path forward for the legislation. If he is unable to craft a compromise in one week's time, his bill will likely die in committee—a fate similar bills in Oregon and Washington suffered after facing similar opposition.
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