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St. Louis Vs. The Police IV: Now it gets real!
 Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-13 02:45:07
This may sound insane, but... Your odds of getting shot by a cop go down dramatically by not breaking the laws/complying with police officers. It should be 0 at that point already.
Even still, not complying with officers commands or simply breaking a law does not give the officer a right to shoot you.Depends on the circumstances. If you pose a threat, then the officer may be justified to use lethal force. You must become a lethal threat before that becomes justifiable, and in such a case, you've already broken the law.
Simply appearing threatening is not justifiable for shooting *and* killing a suspect, as there are people who *appear* threatening, without actually acting in a threatening manner.
So the short answer is AWWW HELL NO! Even still, not complying with officers commands or simply breaking a law does not give the officer a right to shoot you. Depends on the circumstances. If you pose a threat, then the officer may be justified to use lethal force.
Only time an officer is justified to use lethal force is when they are faced with a kill or be killed situation. This includes, but is not limited to: firearms, knives, blunt objects (baseball bats, batons, steel pipes, etc.) or when the suspect is using force great enough to produce serious injury or death. This also extends to if an officer sees a suspect causing harm to another person, if the officer feels the suspect is likely to cause serious injury or death to another, the officer is allowed to use lethal force.
Note: this is specific to Oklahoma, however, I'd be confident in this also being upheld in the other 49 states. This may sound insane, but... Your odds of getting shot by a cop go down dramatically by not breaking the laws/complying with police officers. It should be 0 at that point already.
Even still, not complying with officers commands or simply breaking a law does not give the officer a right to shoot you.Depends on the circumstances. If you pose a threat, then the officer may be justified to use lethal force.
The problem is, what the officer perceptive as a threat is subjected to their biases. Remember the story of the black kid holding a weapon of some kind; the cops pulled up and killed him immediately. Recently, there's a story of some white guy walking around a school of all places, with a gun and the police didn't do squat. Thanks for reiterating the obvious.
Ffxiah feels like a court room sometimes -_-
 Valefor.Blizz
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By Valefor.Blizz 2015-03-13 04:45:08
In missouri Deadly force is defined as:
Deadly force is a force in which a produant person would consider likely of causing death or serious bodily harm. Only to be used in extreme nessasity, as a last resort, or when all lesser means have failed and can not resonabley be employed.
Justifications for use of deadly force.
Self defence and defence of others
defence envolving national security
defence not envolving national security but inhearent danger to others.
Arrest
Escape specific to missouri (A fleeing felon)
Lawful order.
They follow the standard military use of deadly force.
Escualation of Force:
Verbal cofrentation
Physical confrentation
less than lethal force. pepper spray, tazer, batton, bean bag rounds.
Deadly force.
Specific to missouri when you are useing the esculation of force you are allowed to use the same amount of force and up to one level higher.
Example. M. Brown. officer talked and ordered him to the side of the road. (Verbal Confrintation) officer and brown get into an argument and officer and brown went hands on. less than leathel and deadly force can be justified here under certain conditions. Officer claims brown reached for officers service weapon. (Felony) occured 100% justified use of deadly force. Officer made the choice to use deadly force. It went to court and the legal system did its job.
By Voren 2015-03-13 06:26:06
Use of force continuum used in the United States:
An officer is allowed to go one level above that of a suspect's current level in order to ensure safety of the officer and the public.
Comparing the US Military's use of force continuum to that of a street cop is an apples and oranges situation.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-03-13 13:45:53
This may sound insane, but... Your odds of getting shot by a cop go down dramatically by not breaking the laws/complying with police officers. It should be 0 at that point already.
Even still, not complying with officers commands or simply breaking a law does not give the officer a right to shoot you.Depends on the circumstances. If you pose a threat, then the officer may be justified to use lethal force. and just by breaking a law or refusing to comply with an officer's commands does not mean you pose a threat to anyone's life.
By Ramyrez 2015-03-13 14:12:48
An officer is allowed to go one level above that of a suspect's current level in order to ensure safety of the officer and the public.
So even if I'm being entirely cooperative an officer has the option to, while not necessarily manhandle men, get physical with me in some fashion?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-13 14:18:06
An officer is allowed to go one level above that of a suspect's current level in order to ensure safety of the officer and the public.
So even if I'm being entirely cooperative an officer has the option to, while not necessarily manhandle men, get physical with me in some fashion? Not unless it is to ensure the safety of the officer and the public.
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By Ramyrez 2015-03-13 14:19:41
Not unless it is to ensure the safety of the officer and the public.
The cynical side of my nature thinks just about anyone capable of tying their shoes could come up with a reason, if pressed, how I was becoming a threat to the officer or the public.
By Bloodrose 2015-03-13 14:19:57
An officer is allowed to go one level above that of a suspect's current level in order to ensure safety of the officer and the public.
So even if I'm being entirely cooperative an officer has the option to, while not necessarily manhandle men, get physical with me in some fashion? Physical, but non-assaultive, basically.
Such as placing you in a standard police hold, if passively resisting arrest.
But in the instance you described, at most, they'd only be able to physically direct you to a police cruiser, place you in cuffs, and otherwise use physical contact as a means to make sure you keep complying.
However, simply being allowed to do so, doesn't mean that an officer will do it. Most are rather diplomatic and would prefer to see someone comply willingly to reasonable and lawful orders.
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By Ramyrez 2015-03-13 14:27:31
However, simply being allowed to do so, doesn't mean that an officer will do it. Most are rather diplomatic and would prefer to see someone comply willingly to reasonable and lawful orders.
Well yes, I realize that. And I'm hardly the type to be in a situation where I'm getting arrested or even stern looks from law enforcement personnel.
I'm just somewhat disturbed by the step-up concept.
It does, however, make it easy to see why so many people manage to get shot even though they're not resisting with serious/deadly force.
Also, assuming this is the case, I see why more officers don't get brought to trial. Basically they're following procedure.
Somewhat troublesome, but within context, some things make more sense at least.
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By Bloodrose 2015-03-13 14:30:42
However, simply being allowed to do so, doesn't mean that an officer will do it. Most are rather diplomatic and would prefer to see someone comply willingly to reasonable and lawful orders.
Well yes, I realize that. And I'm hardly the type to be in a situation where I'm getting arrested or even stern looks from law enforcement personnel.
I'm just somewhat disturbed by the step-up concept.
It does, however, make it easy to see why so many people manage to get shot even though they're not resisting with serious/deadly force.
Also, assuming this is the case, I see why more officers don't get brought to trial. Basically they're following procedure.
Somewhat troublesome, but within context, some things make more sense at least. Fair enough analysis.
Carry on about your day, citizen, lest I get physical.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-03-13 14:35:23
By Ramyrez 2015-03-13 18:53:43
This was a given. Thank you for doing it so I didn't have to.
By fonewear 2015-03-13 18:56:21
I heard Obama is going to visit Missouri and lay his hands upon the racism !
Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-13 19:58:14
This may sound insane, but... Your odds of getting shot by a cop go down dramatically by not breaking the laws/complying with police officers. It should be 0 at that point already.
Even still, not complying with officers commands or simply breaking a law does not give the officer a right to shoot you.Depends on the circumstances. If you pose a threat, then the officer may be justified to use lethal force. and just by breaking a law or refusing to comply with an officer's commands does not mean you pose a threat to anyone's life.
I didn't say that breaking laws/not complying is equal to threat, but why would anyone defy a police officer anyways?
I could have gone to prison for things I basically got caught red handed doing, but by staying cool, not freaking out, being respectful, polite, and complying to their demands. Has allowed me to be able to walk away without any trouble for me or anyone else, every time. Things could have turned out VERY differently had I not followed these common sense rules. People without this common sense are usually the ones that get busted and/or shot.
People forget that police have one of the most dangerous jobs and are on high alert at all times.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-03-13 20:44:16
It's nice that you're able to walk away without any trouble every time. Imagine an upbringing where you and those around you, your family and friends, get harassed by the police on a regular basis, often times for no reason. Maybe even had a family member be killed by a police officer when they haven't done anything wrong, and there were no coincidences for the officer who did it. Try living this reality for your entire life, year in and year out.
After you go through all that, try telling them that all they have to do is follow those common sense rules of yours.
Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-13 20:55:05
It's nice that you're able to walk away without any trouble every time. Imagine an upbringing where you and those around you, your family and friends, get harassed by the police on a regular basis, often times for no reason. Maybe even had a family member be killed by a police officer when they haven't done anything wrong, and there were no coincidences for the officer who did it. Try living this reality for your entire life, year in and year out.
After you go through all that, try telling them that all they have to do is follow those common sense rules of yours. You seem to assume a lot about my life.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-03-13 20:59:20
Does your life match the reality I laid out?
Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-13 21:09:29
Yes, minus the killing, but I perceive there is always a reason. Even if it's a reason unknown to me.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-03-13 21:17:00
Then I'm not assuming a lot about your life.
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Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-13 21:27:39
Then I'm not assuming a lot about your life. You knew nothing about me. Assumptions are literally all you had.
By Lye 2015-03-13 21:27:58
Yes, minus the killing, but I perceive there is always a reason. Even if it's a reason unknown to me.
Then you don't have to do much to imagine.
Also, given this
Zero interest in sex. I don't understand the obsession. Do not want.
I'm thinking you're pretty comfortable with the idea that other people think/act differently.
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Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-13 21:29:15
Yeah, that is true.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-03-13 22:03:13
Then I'm not assuming a lot about your life. You knew nothing about me. Assumptions are literally all you had.
Anyways, what I'm trying to tell you is that it's a little too 2015 to think other people should just do what you do and they'll get the same results.
Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-13 23:03:02
Then I'm not assuming a lot about your life. You knew nothing about me. Assumptions are literally all you had.
Anyways, what I'm trying to tell you is that it's a little too 2015 to think other people should just do what you do and they'll get the same results. I can't promise anything, and I can't say for certain that those are the reasons why I avoided trouble, but it's what seemed rational and right to do in the circumstances, and I've yet to have them stick anything to me.
By Voren 2015-03-14 02:31:07
However, simply being allowed to do so, doesn't mean that an officer will do it. Most are rather diplomatic and would prefer to see someone comply willingly to reasonable and lawful orders.
Well yes, I realize that. And I'm hardly the type to be in a situation where I'm getting arrested or even stern looks from law enforcement personnel.
I'm just somewhat disturbed by the step-up concept.
It does, however, make it easy to see why so many people manage to get shot even though they're not resisting with serious/deadly force.
Also, assuming this is the case, I see why more officers don't get brought to trial. Basically they're following procedure.
Somewhat troublesome, but within context, some things make more sense at least.
To clarify:
There's gradual steps that most (I'll stress MOST) officers will take on the UoFC. We don't just have firearms, there's less lethal options available to most officers depending upon size of department. OC spray, batons, tasers, hand-to-hand techniques are most of what we use.
I can give a few instances where the UoFC started at the bottom and escalated, as well as it starting just below the line where a trigger is pulled and was able to deescalate. Luckily I've not reached the top and I hope I have enough karma saved up when the time comes that I never have to. I will also speak on behalf of the majority of officers when I say we don't want to have to shoot you, it's the few that want to be John McClain and go all Nakatomi Towers on every call. I say ef that mess, too much paperwork.
It's not all black and white or clear-cut as some people on this forum would like to have it. Welcome to law enforcement, everything is dependent upon circumstances and the variables that change with each incident.
By Voren 2015-03-14 02:41:09
This may sound insane, but... Your odds of getting shot by a cop go down dramatically by not breaking the laws/complying with police officers. It should be 0 at that point already.
Even still, not complying with officers commands or simply breaking a law does not give the officer a right to shoot you.Depends on the circumstances. If you pose a threat, then the officer may be justified to use lethal force. and just by breaking a law or refusing to comply with an officer's commands does not mean you pose a threat to anyone's life.
If I give you an order to drop your weapon and stop, but you continue to advance towards me or another person with weapon in hand, guess what punkin, I'm justified in using lethal force. So yes, by breaking a law and failing to comply with a lawful command is justification to use lethal force. It's all about circumstances.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-03-14 02:41:33
Then I'm not assuming a lot about your life. You knew nothing about me. Assumptions are literally all you had.
Anyways, what I'm trying to tell you is that it's a little too 2015 to think other people should just do what you do and they'll get the same results. I can't promise anything, and I can't say for certain that those are the reasons why I avoided trouble, but it's what seemed rational and right to do in the circumstances, and I've yet to have them stick anything to me.
It just seems to me that if you're not sure about your advice, it shouldn't be given.
It's kinda like when Homer was giving that guy directions even though he didn't know what the location was, just because he wanted to be a good guy. Sure his intentions were in the right place, but in the end, all it will do is cause trouble.
Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-14 03:44:00
Then I'm not assuming a lot about your life. You knew nothing about me. Assumptions are literally all you had.
Anyways, what I'm trying to tell you is that it's a little too 2015 to think other people should just do what you do and they'll get the same results. I can't promise anything, and I can't say for certain that those are the reasons why I avoided trouble, but it's what seemed rational and right to do in the circumstances, and I've yet to have them stick anything to me.
It just seems to me that if you're not sure about your advice, it shouldn't be given.
It's kinda like when Homer was giving that guy directions even though he didn't know what the location was, just because he wanted to be a good guy. Sure his intentions were in the right place, but in the end, all it will do is cause trouble. Doing the opposite of what I did will certainly result in an arrest or shooting. Was it the deciding factor in maintaining my freedom? I can't read minds, but I believe it helped.
Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-03-14 03:54:27
Well we're not talking about what we shouldn't do, we're talking about what we should do. Talking about what we shouldn't do just opens up a huge degree of discussion ranging from taking the officer's hat to doing hand stands and pretending to talk to the officer through your shoes. It's essentially a meaningless discussion.
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Valefor.Endoq
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By Valefor.Endoq 2015-03-14 04:13:27
Well we're not talking about what we shouldn't do, we're talking about what we should do. Talking about what we shouldn't do just opens up a huge degree of discussion ranging from taking the officer's hat to doing hand stands and pretending to talk to the officer through your shoes. It's essentially a meaningless discussion. What part is bad about remaining respectful, polite, obedient, and calm, when dealing with a police officer?
That is the summary of my advice.
St. Louis police kills armed African American teen after chase in a stolen car
Quote: Police officers shot dead a teenager armed with a handgun after he got out of a stolen car in St. Louis on Wednesday night, their force said.
The shooting comes five months after a white police officer shot dead an unarmed black teenager in a suburb of the city -- one of a number of racially-charged cases that have prompted protests about police tactics across the United States.
Officers were tailing the car, which was reported stolen in December, when it struck a wall and the engine stopped, St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson told reporters.
The 19-year-old passenger was carrying a Tec 9 handgun when he got out of the car to flee, and officers ordered him to drop the weapon, Dotson said. Both officers opened fire when he did not, fatally wounding him, he added.
One of the officers involved in Wednesday's shooting was white and the other black, Dotson said at a press conference broadcast online. The St Louis Post-Dispatch reported that the shot teenager was African-American.
The teenager died in hospital, Dotson said. The driver of the car, who the Post-Dispatch said was also black, was taken into police custody.
The St. Louis area has been racked with tension following the shooting death of unarmed black teenager Michael Brown by white police officer Darren Wilson in August in the suburb of Ferguson.
The New York Times reported on Wednesday that the U.S. Justice Department would soon close its investigation into Brown's death and clear Wilson of any civil rights charges.
Cue round 2 3 4 of riots "peaceful" protests demanding to convict the officers who protected their lives murdered poor innocent thug teenager who stole a car was doing nothing more than walking down a street.
Incoming Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson inciting racially charged riots conducting peaceful protests.
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