Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
Version 3.1
New Items
users online
Forum » Everything Else » Politics and Religion » Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees
Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees
First Page 2 3 4 5 6
 Cerberus.Eugene
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Eugene
Posts: 6999
By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 19:15:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You do know if you spit in the street, or throw your coffee cup out, any random person can pick up your DNA?

Delaware's law is actually safer because it's destroyed if you're not convicted.
[+]
 Cerberus.Pleebo
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Pleebo
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 19:20:38
Link | Quote | Reply
 
The segments of DNA relevant to identification are (as far as we currently know) non-coding regions and can't be used to determine any other kinds of genetic information other than perhaps your lineage.
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Snprphnx
Posts: 2693
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-06-04 19:21:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Cerberus.Eugene said: »
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
I can see both sides of the argument. It sounds like the dissenting side is worried that the DNA taken would be used for genetic profiling, similar to racial profiling.

This was not upheld in the court's decision. It wasn't struck down either. Have to wait for future cases to see if its relevant.

It wasnt in the Supreme Courts decision. But it was one of the stamens te made in the Maryland case that stuck the law down
Quote:
The Maryland court was noting that DNA sampling is much different from compulsory fingerprinting. A fingerprint, for example, reveals nothing more than a person’s identity. But much more can be learned from a DNA sample, which codes a person’s family ties, some health risks and, according to some, can predict a propensity for violence.
[+]
 Bahamut.Kara
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Kara
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 19:21:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I'm sorry but there have been quite a few reports about plea bargaining occurring because harsher charges are taken away or added.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-prosecutors-push-for-plea-bargains.html?pagewanted=all

Quote:
Plea bargains have been common for more than a century, but lately they have begun to put the trial system out of business in some courtrooms. By one count, fewer than one in 40 felony cases now make it to trial, according to data from nine states that have published such records since the 1970s, when the ratio was about one in 12. The decline has been even steeper in federal district courts.

....

The overloaded court system has also seen comparatively little expansion in many places, making a huge increase in plea bargains a cheap and easy way to handle a near-tripling in felony cases over the past generation.

....
“How many times is a mandatory sentence used as a chip in order to coerce a plea? They don’t keep records,” said Senior Judge John L. Kane Jr. of United States District Court in Denver, who believes that prosecutors have grown more powerful than judges. But it is very common, he added. “That’s what the public doesn’t see, and where the statistics become meaningless.”

But one result is obvious, he said: “We hardly have trials anymore.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443589304577637610097206808.html

Quote:
In mid June, under a deal with federal prosecutors, Kenneth Kassab was on the verge of pleading guilty to illegally transporting thousands of pounds of explosives when he changed his mind. A week later, he was acquitted by a federal jury.

Though Mr. Kassab maintained his innocence, he said in an interview that he had been prepared to plead guilty to avoid the risk of possibly decades in prison.

....
The triumph of plea bargaining in the federal system, which has gathered pace in recent years, is nearly complete. Guilty pleas last year resolved 97% of all federal cases that the Justice Department prosecuted to a conclusion. That is up from 84% in 1990. During that period, the number of federal defendants nearly doubled amid a crackdown on crimes ranging from drug trafficking to fraud, while the number going to trial fell by nearly two-thirds.

....

Federal guidelines not only toughened punishments but also formalized a system to reward defendants who plead guilty by reducing sentences if they accept responsibility or cooperate with prosecutors, among other things. As part of plea deals, federal prosecutors often drop additional charges that could add years, or decades, to a sentence. Going to trial brings none of those benefits for the accused.

And many others.
 Cerberus.Pleebo
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Pleebo
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 19:23:31
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
Cerberus.Eugene said: »
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
I can see both sides of the argument. It sounds like the dissenting side is worried that the DNA taken would be used for genetic profiling, similar to racial profiling.

This was not upheld in the court's decision. It wasn't struck down either. Have to wait for future cases to see if its relevant.

It wasnt in the Supreme Courts decision. But it was one of the stamens te made in the Maryland case that stuck the law down
Quote:
The Maryland court was noting that DNA sampling is much different from compulsory fingerprinting. A fingerprint, for example, reveals nothing more than a person’s identity. But much more can be learned from a DNA sample, which codes a person’s family ties, some health risks and, according to some, can predict a propensity for violence.
That quote is ignorant of what information is actually contained in the relevant portion of DNA.
 Lakshmi.Glaciont
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: glaciont
Posts: 750
By Lakshmi.Glaciont 2013-06-04 19:37:46
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »
Hundreds of wrongly convicted felons compared to how many actual convicted felons? >_>

Suddenly... everyone in jail is wrongly accused of their crime, right?


Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
I'll take "Where the *** is my right to privacy and innocence until proven guilty" for 400, Trebek.

Strictly convicted though is what the article is saying.

Honestly, if you're in jail for committing a serious crime, then yea it's completely fine. For example, someone who is in for murder or rape, then yea.. it's completely fine to take DNA samples. It shouldn't be a matter of "Oh my rights and freedoms", cause that person has clearly denied the rights and freedoms of another human being.
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Snprphnx
Posts: 2693
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-06-04 19:44:38
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
Cerberus.Eugene said: »
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
I can see both sides of the argument. It sounds like the dissenting side is worried that the DNA taken would be used for genetic profiling, similar to racial profiling.

This was not upheld in the court's decision. It wasn't struck down either. Have to wait for future cases to see if its relevant.

It wasnt in the Supreme Courts decision. But it was one of the stamens te made in the Maryland case that stuck the law down
Quote:
The Maryland court was noting that DNA sampling is much different from compulsory fingerprinting. A fingerprint, for example, reveals nothing more than a person’s identity. But much more can be learned from a DNA sample, which codes a person’s family ties, some health risks and, according to some, can predict a propensity for violence.
That quote is ignorant of what information is actually contained in the relevant portion of DNA.

I agree. But it is part of the original decision made by the Maryland court, therefore part of what the US Supreme Court had to consider.
 Cerberus.Pleebo
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Pleebo
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 19:47:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Oh. When you said 'dissenting side', I assumed you meant Scalia's opinion.

Well at least the Supreme Court understands basic genetics.
 Lye
Offline
Posts: 1721
By Lye 2013-06-04 19:48:14
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I think I'm more worried about misconceptions about DNA perpetrated by television.


I fear a public that knows little more than what they've seen on CSI.
[+]
 Cerberus.Pleebo
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Pleebo
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 19:49:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I love the lighting on those shows. How the *** are the techs able to see what they're doing?
 Lye
Offline
Posts: 1721
By Lye 2013-06-04 19:52:25
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Or packing heat while running PCR just after interrogating a witness!



LAWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Snprphnx
Posts: 2693
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-06-04 19:57:32
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Yea. I love CSI forensics. It's about three steps removed from Star Trek.
[+]
 Cerberus.Pleebo
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Pleebo
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 20:01:25
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I'd like to see CSI solve a crime by reversing the polarity on the deflector dish.
[+]
 Lye
Offline
Posts: 1721
By Lye 2013-06-04 20:18:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Tachyon Burst!
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Snprphnx
Posts: 2693
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-06-04 20:30:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lye said: »
Tachyon Burst!
Need more Tachyon Detection Grids to catch the bad guys.
[+]
 Cerberus.Eugene
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Eugene
Posts: 6999
By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 20:39:30
Link | Quote | Reply
 
For realz its tachyon deflector array.
 Alexander.Carrelo
Offline
Server: Alexander
Game: FFXI
user: Carrelo
Posts: 3706
By Alexander.Carrelo 2013-06-04 20:53:59
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm confused about the statement I bolded above. When you are arrested you have been indicted, or the DA can file papers to arrest you, or the offices can arrest on probable cause (but this can later be dropped without charges). This is how I understand the procedure to work, but someone else with more knowledge can chime in.
Thanks for pointing that out, I meant "convict" instead of "indict." I don't use English very much in my daily life anymore and I keep having little hiccups like that.^^; The words don't even sound the same. ; ;
[+]
 Cerberus.Eugene
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Eugene
Posts: 6999
By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 21:05:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm confused about the statement I bolded above. When you are arrested you have been indicted, or the DA can file papers to arrest you, or the offices can arrest on probable cause (but this can later be dropped without charges). This is how I understand the procedure to work, but someone else with more knowledge can chime in.
No, when you are arrested you are arrested. Then the police decide whether to charge you. The prosecutor is then handed the charges, and they decide which charges to pursue. The prosecutor then takes the charges to a grand jury. If the grand jury bills those charges then you are indicted. If you go to court and are found guilty of those charges then you are convicted.
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Snprphnx
Posts: 2693
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-06-04 21:20:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
In Virginia, the police can detain/arrest you. From here, you are taken in front of the local magistrate, and they determine whether or not the police had probable cause to make the arrest. If they agree, they determine is you qualify for bond, and if so, if its an unsecured bond (released without having to pay anything, but still subject to restrictions like not leaving the state or country, etc ) or secured (have to pay to be release, payment in either money or property). If you break your bond restrictions, you lose your cash/property and you get locked up. From there, the DA determines if they feel there is enough evidence to move forward with a conviction, or if there isn't enough, they can choose to not prosecute. However, if they opt to not prosecuted, this leave he case open and they can come back to it later, if within the statutes of limitation. From there it goes to the grand jury/trial phase.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2013-06-04 22:18:34
 Undelete | Link | Quote | Reply
 
Post deleted by User.
 Lye
Offline
Posts: 1721
By Lye 2013-06-04 22:23:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Wow. Incoherent rant.





Thanks for that~!
[+]
 Asura.Lokimaru
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Rocketpop
Posts: 2006
By Asura.Lokimaru 2013-06-04 22:29:37
Link | Quote | Reply
 
One step closer to Minority Report.
 Carbuncle.Valflux
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: Valflux
Posts: 36
By Carbuncle.Valflux 2013-06-04 23:30:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I don't understand why anyone cares... Your DNA isn't particularly hard to get. Every time you lose a hair (it happens every day) it potentially allows someone to run a test on your DNA. It's much more reliable to test blood, obviously, and yes, as some have mentioned here, false positives do happen... but if you're going to be taken to court for a murder trial or something serious based on a DNA accusation, don't you think your lawyer would have another test done..?
 Carbuncle.Valflux
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: Valflux
Posts: 36
By Carbuncle.Valflux 2013-06-04 23:35:41
Link | Quote | Reply
 
This reminds me of people that were so upset about the body scans in the airport... A person that has to routinely look at thousands of naked bodies every day doesn't care about you, not even a little.
Same goes for your DNA... you're not special, no one cares about your DNA unless it shows up as part of some other crime scene... and as I said in my previous post, it's not the end of the world if that does happen by mistake...
 Fenrir.Terminus
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Terminus
Posts: 3351
By Fenrir.Terminus 2013-06-04 23:40:46
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Ok going to pop lots of bubbles here. EVERY US citizen here is a criminal.

The video I posted above will demonstrate that. There are so many laws, statutes, administrative policy's, regulations and rules that it's impossible to go throughout your life without breaking one of them.

The only difference is the degree to which the prosecution and their police thugs desire to enforce them. If they want they can arrest you for damn near anything, the only thing stopping a police state from existing is all those rights you have to a defense. Don't ever think about lightly throwing away any of them. You think it's all fine and dandy until your on the business end of a police investigation, even if you've done nothing wrong (that you know of).

Just look at recent posts in this forum, children being handcuffed or suspended for the smallest of things. All sorts of overreaction from government appointees and bureaucrats.
Meanwhile, you bloody moron, as I said before concerning the case of that kid that got arrested over wearing an NRA t-shirt to school and then refusing to just turn it inside out, such cases you also have to look at the liability faced by the school staff if, say, the kid turned out to be Adam Lanza 2.0 and decided to later go postal and shoot up the whole school with an assault rifle similar to the one his shirt had pictured on it. If they had done nothing, and that had happened, the parents of other students at that school would damn certain have sued the administration, as well as the school board itself, while going after the family of the shooter at the same time in the courts.
But no. They acted. They called the cops in, the kid was dragged out in handcuffs, and in that moment the town's school system was put at a distance by any such liability lawsuits that might have arisen if that had happened.
Then again, I forget that brainless gun-tards like yourself can't think things through further than the "that guy disagrees with me! I wanna shewt'im" train of thought. If you want to shoot someone that badly, shoot yourself in the forehead, please.

Whoa Candlejack, settle down, man. This ridiculous rant about guns is so uncharacteristic of you. Is everything ok?
 Bahamut.Baconwrap
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5381
By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2013-06-04 23:58:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Question about the swab test if anyone can chime in. How much of the genome will it document? I can't find much info online about that.

So long as it only does non-coding regions and doesn't reveal genetic traits and chronic conditions it's all golden. The minute it is allowed to reveal chronic conditions or traits it becomes a huge invasion of privacy.
 Cerberus.Pleebo
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Pleebo
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-05 00:07:20
Link | Quote | Reply
 
13 CODIS STR loci
 Bahamut.Kara
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Kara
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-05 03:22:54
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Cerberus.Eugene said: »
Quote:
Since 1989, there have been 891 exonerations based on DNA evidence. But these represent only a small percentage of wrongful convictions, including violent felonies and non-violent charges. Other experts estimate that the rate is between 4 and 6 percent, with up to 136,000 innocent people behind bars.
link

I had some sleep and then looked at your link.

Sorry, but your link is wrong. I went from your article to their primary source, then to that articles
primary source
, and the numbers are not correct.

The exonerationregistery.org was set-up to evaluate exonerations from 1989-2012. They found a total of 873 exonerations (Figure 1 and the table underneath), where 325 of them DNA matching was used and 548 where other was used.

Since this report was published they have found a total of 1133 people who have been exonerated, with 304 of them being exonerated with DNA evidence. This link was filtered by DNA only, with no asterisk.
Quote:
Note: An asterisk (*) in the column to the right of the "DNA" column means that the case is not included in the Innocence Project's list of DNA exonerations because post-conviction DNA evidence was not central to establishing innocence, and other non-DNA factors were essential to the exoneration.

The full report is very interesting.
[+]
 Bahamut.Milamber
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: milamber
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2013-06-05 04:23:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Ok going to pop lots of bubbles here. EVERY US citizen here is a criminal.

The video I posted above will demonstrate that. There are so many laws, statutes, administrative policy's, regulations and rules that it's impossible to go throughout your life without breaking one of them.

The only difference is the degree to which the prosecution and their police thugs desire to enforce them. If they want they can arrest you for damn near anything, the only thing stopping a police state from existing is all those rights you have to a defense. Don't ever think about lightly throwing away any of them. You think it's all fine and dandy until your on the business end of a police investigation, even if you've done nothing wrong (that you know of).

Just look at recent posts in this forum, children being handcuffed or suspended for the smallest of things. All sorts of overreaction from government appointees and bureaucrats.
Meanwhile, you bloody moron, as I said before concerning the case of that kid that got arrested over wearing an NRA t-shirt to school and then refusing to just turn it inside out, such cases you also have to look at the liability faced by the school staff if, say, the kid turned out to be Adam Lanza 2.0 and decided to later go postal and shoot up the whole school with an assault rifle similar to the one his shirt had pictured on it. If they had done nothing, and that had happened, the parents of other students at that school would damn certain have sued the administration, as well as the school board itself, while going after the family of the shooter at the same time in the courts.
But no. They acted. They called the cops in, the kid was dragged out in handcuffs, and in that moment the town's school system was put at a distance by any such liability lawsuits that might have arisen if that had happened.
Then again, I forget that brainless gun-tards like yourself can't think things through further than the "that guy disagrees with me! I wanna shewt'im" train of thought. If you want to shoot someone that badly, shoot yourself in the forehead, please.

First, the concept that the actions of an individual is foreseeable (one of the aspects considered for determining negligence, and thereby liability) based on a t-shirt slogan is somewhat silly; as is the thought that having a dress code and enforcing it limits liability.

From reading a news report, we can find more information on this particular case.
To paraphrase the article, kid wears tshirt (which was within dress code), teacher tells student to change or turn inside out, kid refuses and starts arguing, and the teacher engages in an public argument with the student, which subsequently results in calling police to arrest the student for essentially disorderly conduct ("disrupting the school process").

I'm still trying to find a means of concluding this message by trying to find something meaningful in your statement to either confirm or contradict, but I can only conclude the following:

You, sir, are a Gibber.

*edited*
 Bahamut.Kara
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Kara
Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-05 04:34:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
The Act in dispute in the SCOTUS case stipulates that DNA evidence is destroyed if charges are dropped. It was mentioned in the decision.

Quote:
If “all qualifying
criminal charges are determined to be unsupported by
probable cause . . . the DNA sample shall be immediately
destroyed.” §2–504(d)(2)(i). DNA samples are also de­
stroyed if “a criminal action begun against the individual
. . . does not result in a conviction,” “the conviction is
finally reversed or vacated and
no new trial is permitted,”
or “the individual is granted an unconditional pardon.”
§2–511(a)(1).

So, I was reading DNA Testing in Criminal Justice: Background, Current Law, Grants, and Issues and I found this:
Quote:
Federal law (42 U.S.C §14132(a)) authorizes the FBI to operate and maintain a national DNA database where DNA profiles generated from samples collected from people under applicable legal authority and samples collected at crime scenes can be compared to generate leads in criminal investigations. Statutory provisions also authorize the collection of DNA samples from federal offenders and arrestees, District of Columbia offenders, and military offenders. State laws dictate which convicted offenders, and sometimes people arrested for crimes, will have profiles entered into state DNA databases, while federal law dictates the scope of the national database.

Since this ruling is based on a state law (and state database) and not the federal database, I would guess, that we would need to wait for further supreme court rulings to clarify this. To find out if the DNA is destroyed in the state database but kept on file in the federal database.

Edit:
Quote:
Most of the debate about the scope of DNA databases faded away with the enactment of the Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act of 2005 (P.L. 109-162), which expanded federal collection statutes to include anyone arrested or detained under the authority of the United States. The act also expanded the scope of the national database to include DNA profiles of individuals arrested for state crimes.